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compes -> RE: Religion (9/14/2004 6:36:12 PM)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: knees2you
Still evading the Question~~ Shakes his head~~
Sincerely, eyesofAslave[;)]
<Kung Fu voice>
The reason why you do not hear the answer to your question, grasshopper, is because you do not understand what you are asking. For you to know if I’m “saved” or not, you must first tell me what you believe is required to be “saved.”
</Kung Fu voice>
Let me make it simple for you.
Different Christian sects have different definitions of "saved.”
Neither of the two Christian sects that I was baptized in would say that I have ever been 'saved.'
The Christian Church, Disciples of Christ would say that you are not saved either, knees. But don’t feel bad – according to them, NO ONE is guaranteed salvation.
The Southern Baptists have a funny way of looking at salvation. They are very free with telling someone that they are saved, and that they will ALWAYS be saved. But the Southern Baptists are also very quick to deny the validity of a backslider’s salvation.
I’m not sure, but it may be that you have a definition of salvation that is different than these two?
Still confused? Let me tell you about the two different Christian sects that I was part of.
Requirements for Salvation
- Christian Church, Disciples of Christ: (DOC)
Salvation is not guaranteed - we are saved by God's grace, not by our own faith, works, words, or convictions. The only thing we can do in hope of salvation is to work at being a good Christian. (In my opinion, this comes dangerously close to the ‘state of grace’ beliefs of the Catholics.)
Becoming a Christian in the DOC requires that you:
1. Hear the gospel
2. Believe that Jesus Christ is the savior, and that he died on the cross for your sins.
3. Repent to God of your sins
4. Publicly confess your faith. (In front of the congregation)
5. Baptism (You can be baptized more than once.)
6. Live a Christian life (constantly work at being a good Christian)
The DOC does not require confessing that Christ is a "personal savior" - because this language is NOT in the bible. To merit salvation means that you are added to the church - (Acts 2:47). To be worthy of salvation, you need to be part of the Christian community, which means worship, witnessing, evangelism, and service to mankind in the name of God. (This is where I got my love of volunteering.)
The DOC only requires the following of the New Testament - the Old Testament is interesting and important, but not absolutely necessary. The entire, complete doctrine of the DOC is expressed in item 2.
Church worship includes weekly communion of bread and wine for all who are baptized. Taking the bread and wine is not required, because it is seen only as a symbol – a way of growing together. DOC uses unleavened bread and grape juice, and doesn’t believe in Transubstantion.
- Southern Baptist Convention (SBC)
Salvation is guaranteed to any who ask for it through Jesus Christ. To get this salvation you must:
1. Repent to God of your sins
2. Publicly accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior (Sins paid for with Christ's blood)
3. Baptized via immersion
4. Have a personal relationship with Christ
The SBC would argue that having a personal relationship with Christ would be very similar to the DOC requirement to live a Christian life. But the DOC believes that the Christian community defines the way a Christian life is lived, whereas the SBC belief in a ‘personal’ relationship with Christ allows for a believer to split from the Church if he feels that the Church has become unorthodox.
Which is what the Southern Baptist Convention did in 1845 – it split from the National Baptists in order to uphold a religious foundation for human slavery. (National Baptists thought slavery was wrong – the SBC disagreed.)
Communion in the SBC is haphazard at best; with each congregation setting it’s own customs. The congregation I belonged to had communion once a month, using French bread and wine. (We ripped chunks out of the bread) And communion was open to anyone – even those who had not been baptized. Of course, the Baptists don’t believe in Transubstantion.
The SBC doctrine is fairly complex, and is contained in the statement of Baptist Faith and Message, which you can read for yourself here: http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfmcomparison.asp. The pre-1925 statement includes the upholding of slavery. I don’t know why the SBC doesn’t post that on their website too. (Maybe they are embarrassed?)
SBC Baptists are supposed to use the Old and the New Testament as an authority for faith and practice of their religion. However, the SBC is pretty vague on WHICH Old Testament verses must be followed. Every Southern Baptist knows that Lev 20:13 is REALLY important, but they quickly forget about the other rules there, (For example: Lev. 20:9 and Lev. 20:10. It’s a good thing for Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggart that Lev 20:10 is NOT followed today! And Lev. 20:9 would probably solve any problems that people feel we are having with today’s youth.)
The SBC believes "Once saved, Always Saved".
This is used against those people who 'backslide’ - obviously someone who is TRULY saved will never 'backslide'. (And say, become an Atheist?) If you DO backslide, then it is obvious that you were never really REALLY 'saved'. Therefore your current status of salvation obviously depends on your future actions and beliefs.
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So, just in case you missed it – to answer your question yet again. No, I’m not saved.
The DOC said that I’m not saved because no one can be guaranteed salvation. They also said that you are not saved either knees.
The SBC told me I was saved when I was baptized into their church, and they told me that I would be saved for forever. But according to the SBC, since I’ve ‘backslid’ it is obvious that I was never really REALLY saved, or else such a backslide would be impossible.
What I find really interesting was that on the occasion of both baptisms, and many other times throughout my Christian life, I absolutely knew that I was saved! I could FEEL the ‘holy spirit’ in me – it was an affirmation of my belief. I could really feel Christ. An encompassing love, a protective warmth and euphoria that everything was going to be okay would completely envelope me.
But then I found out that Catholics feel this same thing – and so do Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and believers of Islam and Hinduism. Zen Buddhists meditate to reach Satori, which goes beyond mere religious euphoria.
As an Atheist, I find that I can recapture the same feeling of the ‘holy spirit’ that I felt when I was a believer – It happens most often when I listen to music that I love. Handel’s Messiah, and Van Halen’s ‘Jump’ both do it to me! (Maybe Van Halen is Holy?) I also get this same feeling, very intense, when I see someone I love bound helplessly – struggling and watching me in love and nervousness. (Maybe BDSM is holy? Hmmm… I’d better watch “The Passion of Christ” just to make sure.)
I know now that this ‘Jesus feeling’ doesn’t come from outside of me, it comes from ME instead. My readings of brain science, and of experiments where scientists are able to induce feelings of religious awe and love in a laboratory setting also convince me that there is nothing supernatural going on; only the workings of our very amazing brains.
Now that I’ve answered your question, again, I’m wondering if you are going to continue to avoid my questions?
Compes
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