RE: Palins church. (Full Version)

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IamElise -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 12:58:15 PM)

Housesub4you. I am so sorry about your lost.




bestbabync -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 1:00:27 PM)

correction on my last post....i am sorry, Obama voted for refusing medical treatment to aborted babies like the down syndrom child i posted about.  the nurse testified to this incident before the senate.




MissIsis -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 2:50:18 PM)

I think things are changing with regard to treating aborted babies.  In the early 1970's in CT, my sister, very young & facing a pregnancy, in which she felt completely alone, was talked into getting an abortion by a family member.  I had already stepped up to take care of the child, no matter whether for a short time or for it's life.  She didn't talk to me about it, but I found out too late, that she had gone to the hospital for an abortion.  She was too far along, & today, I am pretty sure they wouldn't allow it.  As soon as they gave her the shot, which they gave in those days for this, she changed her mind.  The father found out about it, & was able to go to the hospital, but it was too late by the time he got there.  My nephew was born alive.  He was refused medical treatment because he had been an aborted baby.  His father held him for an hour, while my sister was out of it, until my nephew died. 

Not a day goes by that my sister doesn't think about her first born,  her son.  If she had it to do over again, she would not do it.  But nowadays, she found out that the laws have been changed & hospitals are required to do all they can to save the life of a baby born alive, at least in that state. 

Personally, I couldn't see having an abortion.  I am 50 & haven't changed my thoughts on that.  But then again, I have never had to face that kind of decision.  Each of my grown offspring, was planned.

Take another story: My mother found herself pregnant when I was 4 years old.  It was a difficult pregnancy.   She had something called placenta previa.  In those days, it was very dangerous for her & her unborn child.  Also, in those days, the catholic church had more power than they do now, & didn't allow birth control.   They also didn't allow abortions.  My mother had to agonize over whether to have an illegal abortion herself in order to save her life, or die & leave behind 3 small ones, knowing full well, my father would have been worthless to care for us. 

I remember the day she screamed from the bathroom.  I was 5 by then.  I ran to her, & as I opened the door, there was blood everywhere.  She yelled at me to go get our neighbor & get out of there.  My father just happened to come home or was fairly close to the house, & got her to the hospital.

She had already been pretty much confined to her bed.  I had to skip almost a half year of kindergarten to try to help take care of my brother & sister.  I got them their cereal, poured them their milk from a gallon jug the milkman would leave for us, & make them peanut butter & jelly sandwiches, until someone could come by to make us dinner.  

My mother spent a month in the hospital & was finally able to give birth to my sister through a c-section.  My father had a mean woman come by to care for us.  We all remember being yelled at constantly by her. 

Somehow things worked out & she was able to come home to us on Christmas day with our little sister. 

My point for all this, is it grieves me to think there are other women going through these things, having to agonize over decisions like this, that are between their higher power, & themselves, and maybe their families.   Who are we to tell these women what to do?  Some would think it really is our obligation to force women to make what we feel are the right decisions.  I don't agree.  In days gone by, these things would have been decided in villages with those who were close to each situation coming to a decision.  Maybe the elder women of the village would have stepped in to care for the little ones who may have been left behind in the event of the death of one of their own.

Times are not like that these days.  It is difficult to find someone to step in when we have a bout with the flu, let alone during a long sickness or death.    Our laws should not be based on archaic rules that have no bearing on todays families. 

Lastly, I will leave with this.  I went to a fair a couple  years ago.  There was a Pro-life table there.  I saw the pictures of fetus's in various stages of development.  I looked through the literature.  I looked up at the women that were there & asked if they had a list of resources or homes that women who found themselves pregnant could turn to, rather than have to face a decision no one should have to face.  They had nothing.  No resource.  No suggestions. 

Not every women who considers abortion is single, poor, young or pregnant.  I knew another women, who had taken on another little one when her youngest was just about grown up.  He was already a couple years old when she took him on.  His birth mother couldn't keep him, because she had just had another child that was born with a disability, & knew she couldn't care for all of hers, plus give the disabled one the attention he would need. 

These are heartwrenching decisions.  No one should have to make these decisions.  Unfortunately, many do.  Ms. Palin may have the resources to be able to care for her disabled young one, but many more women in this country don't have that luxury.  Again, I don't believe for one minute any of us has any right to make these decisions for these women, especially, when so few of us are willing to step in, no matter what the cost. 

Oh, & by the way, my mom had to take illegal birth control after she had my sister.  It was against the law in those days to use it.




sirsholly -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 2:54:37 PM)

geez...what a powerful post.




subtee -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 2:59:48 PM)

This is an amazing post. Thank you so much for sharing it.

I heard a compelling treatise a long time ago and I wish I could remember the author, but I can't. (Old broad.)  The gist of it was that the politicians who are faced with the task of pushing legislation one way or the other about abortion have faced these same types of stories--or would face them--with their own mothers, sisters, daughters. It means something when it hits home and there are very few families in which there has not been at least one unplanned pregnancy.




bestbabync -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:05:33 PM)

[image]http://www.collarchat.com/micons/m27.gif[/image]
i am not trying to come off as holier than thou, but i do not agree that i should be taxed for women to use abortion as birth control.  i agree there are valid reasons to terminate some pregnancies, such as complications that can cause death to the mother.  that is a choice to be made privately between a doctor & the patient. if the child is deformed & or terribly damaged i am on the fence. 

i rather this not be a constitution issue.  i rather this be regulated on a state level!

but for a woman to neglect her responsibility to protect herself from an unwanted pregnancy and then just shrug her shoulders & go to the abortion clinic with her medicaid card is what i disagree with and what i do not want to pay for.  Obama did make a statement that i do agree with in regards to the high abortion numbers in this country.  he stated that something needs to be done to reduce the large number of abortions.

i truly believe it is not a woman's right to neglectfully get pregnant and then run down to her local abortion clinic for birth control at the expense of the tax payer. 




kittinSol -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:14:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

i truly believe it is not a woman's right to neglectfully get pregnant and then run down to her local abortion clinic for birth control at the expense of the tax payer. 


You are wrong, it is a woman's right, as ruled by the Supreme Court. As for the money, some women pay out of pocket, or have private health insurance, so you don't even have to bear the cost [8|] . Now, you can go and tell people to stop having cancer [8|].




celticlord2112 -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:18:34 PM)

FR

As is to be expected of the pro-choice/pro-life debate, y'all are going in circles. Perhaps an agreement to disagree is in order?




impishlilhellcat -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:20:08 PM)

I had an ectopic pregnancy I had to have an abortion I didn't have a choice it was me or the baby I was also pregnant with twins and gave birth to a stillborn little boy (while the baby girl didn't even make t that far) and while I struggle with the effects of that to this day I still don't think a woman's right to choose should be taken away. I don't support abortion and I don't agree with using abortion as a method of birth control. But for a country who has fought so hard to be free and equal rights for all (and while there are other options available) if woman gets pregnant I think she should be free to deal with it as she wishes. And I don't think some law or legislation should be pushed through with a blanket of generalness not knowing what the situation or circumstances surrounding the abortion are. Things happen and we can assume as to why a woman's getting an abortion to be honest I don't think it's anyone's business, but the person going through it, but you still don't know. Maybe we should focus on better education and sex ed programs where there are none..... educating more and more about birth control (yes that information still is not reaching many young girls until it is far too late)




Owner59 -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:20:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

quote:

i did recieve assistance and i attended college using federal grants & loans.  i came from a poor family but i had my mother's moral support and love.  yes, i was down on my luck and  i used the system as a step up, but i did not use it to pay for my birth control like many of my friends did at the time. 


quote:

also...i am pro life but that does not mean that i want my tax dollars to pay for the homes for unwed mothers.  sorry, but i don't.  that is why service & giving is so important.  we all have a civic responsibility but i do not agree with being forced/taxed to fund charity organizations or pay for abortions.


Wow.



there is a difference here subtee.  i did not use the system to support me nor pay for my mistake.  i had 2 jobs, took care of my daughter and went to school on the same federal grants & loans anyone was intitled too.  i did not recieve that support because i was an unwed mother.


So I guess you like that she cut funding to unwed moms as governor?

I hope they had rich,connected parents,otherwise they would certainly suffer under her line item veto.

Not everyone can provide for themselves and child(as you did).And it`s the child that will suffer most.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/09/02/palin_slashed_funding_to_help.html

Those are her cross-outs and initials there.Her veto,her cuts.

Is what she`d bring to the presidency?

~~~~~~~~~~~~



I`m cool with people supporting this kind of policy,but we should at least know about it and have it as part of the debate.

I`m not cool w/ people who want to hide this side of her.




kittinSol -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:21:06 PM)

FR - This isn't a disagreement, this is a fight against deliberate ignorance. And... arguing in circles? You're against it, suddenly :-) ?




bestbabync -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:21:25 PM)

back where we started......LOL!

big government & raise taxes




bestbabync -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:25:13 PM)

i too had an ectopic pregnancy.  yes i had to have an abortion which prevented me from bleeding to death. 

i believe each situation is different, like i said in a previous post.

i prefer women to be educated & accept the responsibility for their mistakes.




bestbabync -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:28:09 PM)

kit,
i am not ignorant because i am pro life.  i am a mother.  i speak from experience.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:30:32 PM)

~ Fast Reply ~
 
Fear not if this tactic fails; the lawyer/paratroopers are dropping upon Alaska to find the next church, email, or non-aborted baby skeleton in Governor Palin's closet. The reality of desperation is even more clear than the image.

quote:

Democrats understand Sarah Palin is a formidable political force who has upset the Obama victory plan. The latest Washington Post/ABC Poll shows John McCain taking a 12-point lead over Barack Obama among white women, a reversal of Mr. Obama's eight-point lead last month.

It's no surprise, then, that Democrats have airdropped a mini-army of 30 lawyers, investigators and opposition researchers into Anchorage, the state capital Juneau and Mrs. Palin's hometown of Wasilla to dig into her record and background. My sources report the first wave arrived in Anchorage less than 24 hours after John McCain selected her on August 29.
Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122098190668515511.html?mod=opinion_journal_political_diary


However, Senator Obama picked up a couple of major endorsements.
British PM backs Obama... BBC POLL: WORLD WANTS OBAMA
 
Come to think of it - those may benefit Senator McCain.




impishlilhellcat -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:32:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

i too had an ectopic pregnancy.  yes i had to have an abortion which prevented me from bleeding to death. 

i believe each situation is different, like i said in a previous post.

i prefer women to be educated & accept the responsibility for their mistakes.


Not all women are educated though, don't you think we should work on that instead of taking away a woman's right to choose?? Not every situation boils down to irresponsibility




celticlord2112 -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:32:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However, Senator Obama picked up a couple of major endorsements.
British PM backs Obama... BBC POLL: WORLD WANTS OBAMA

Come to think of it - those may benefit Senator McCain.

British PM, The World....not to mention Hamas......

Gee, when did all these other folk get a vote in an American election?




subtee -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:33:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

i too had an ectopic pregnancy.  yes i had to have an abortion which prevented me from bleeding to death. 

i believe each situation is different, like i said in a previous post.

i prefer women to be educated & accept the responsibility for their mistakes.


Yes each situation is different. That's why it blanket statements about "women neglectfully get pregnant and then run down to her local abortion clinic for birth control at the expense of the tax payer" should be avoided.

We all prefer that everyone be educated and accept the responsibility for their mistakes. You make no mention of the male half--and it is at least half--of the responsibility. What about rape?

Palin's stance is that even if raped a woman (or girl) must give birth. http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/2006/governor/story/8372383p-8266781c.html

It's extremist.

http://dwb.adn.com/news/politics/elections/2006/governor/story/8372383p-8266781c.html




CalifChick -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:41:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync
i prefer women to be educated & accept the responsibility for their mistakes.



I am educated. 

I did take birth control pills, exactly as they were supposed to be taken.  He did use a condom.  I did get pregnant anyway.

My pregnancy was not a "mistake".  Some of my family members treated it as a "mistake".  I did not make an error.  I made a child. 

I prefer people who choose to judge others to use less inflammatory language, but we can't all have what we want.


Cali






bestbabync -> RE: Palins church. (9/9/2008 3:42:49 PM)

i do not see Roe vs Wade as a woman's right issue.  a woman's right to vote, own land, equal pay for equal job etc  is a woman's right.  failing to prevent an unwanted pregnancy and then murdering the child is not a right.
i truly believe that each state should regulate this issue.  if it is a medical situation/reason, then why do i need a law to give me that right to make the decision.  unline some others, i truly believe that pro lifers should take a bigger role in educating women about their responsibility.  when a woman makes a mistake the pro lifers should also provide her with resources.  this burden should not be left to the taxpayer.




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