Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Power


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Power Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 6:16:46 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetpettjenny
everyone on either side of a D/s relationship has power, its all in what you do with it.

Couldn't agree more Jenny. Isn't that what we so often say? It takes power and strength and ability to be a good sub/slave/person in a relationship.

That doesn't stop just because you are IN a relationship.

Good relationships EMPOWER the people within them. Well-trained subs and slaves have MORE abilities and powers than they did prior to being in the relationship.

As Iron so sneakily pointed out- authority IS a type of power in itself, which is where things actually get complicated. However, IMO, authority is a specialized enough force to disassociate it with "power" in general when put within the discussion of M/s type relationships.

The dominant has the authority, the slave doesn't. They both still have power.

(in reply to sweetpettjenny)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 6:29:35 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline
Ah, this sounds like the “gift” myth again. Interactions between dom and sub are goal dependent. Actions are a result of adapting to what gets us closer to our goal.

The sub is influenced by the personality, intelligence, physical appearance, sexual attraction and other qualities of the dom to an extent that she wants to be part of his attentions. She adapts to reach her goal. She conforms to the expectations of the dom. It is necessary to her for him to act a certain way for her to control her own self-image perception. She finds pleasure in reaching her self-image of a sub controlled by this particular dom. She needs this and it is not a gift.

Doms and subs create rituals, which are symbolic structures, yet much more. We call each other slave and master to feel our self-images and to make them real. The structure we create is one we agree on to reach our goals. Symbolic reactions are powerful because it is physical. We actually do it.

Ever hear that the reason some are nice to others is that it is a selfish desire to be viewed as good? Likewise, a sub will take severe whippings if her desire is to be in the attentions of the dom (her goal). This could also be said of casual public play where acceptance is still apt. However, in this case she is reaching her self-image of being his slave. The sting of the whip tells her that she is his. She will do everything she can to be accepted into her role, including altering reality and wanting the pain. Damn, I love this fact.


_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to DarkSpark)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 6:51:46 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
Personally, I believe that "power" is the capacity to "control", that "control" is the deliberate use of "power", and that "structure" is the manifestation of consistent "control".

John

P.S. - Individually, we all have our own power and control until such time as some of us may choose to lend it to another.



< Message edited by Rover -- 11/29/2005 6:53:38 AM >

(in reply to DarkSpark)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 7:07:53 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Personally, I believe that "power" is the capacity to "control", that "control" is the deliberate use of "power", and that "structure" is the manifestation of consistent "control".

Rover/John

P.S. - Individually, we all have our own power and control until such time as some of us may choose to lend it to another.


i respectfully disagree Sir. "Personal power" as distinguished from power derived from a supervisory position, an elected office, or a relationship with someone you boss around (such as a child) is not what i wrote about.

My extraordinary personal power did not create "structure" nor was it experienced by myself or others as a "control". As a young person, my environment was chaotic, dangerous and filled with real boogiemen. i had no structure within that setting, nor did i control any of the boogiemen -- apart from the stabbings i committed. "Personal power" is not a magical superpower, able to clean up whole organizations or neighborhoods with the wave of a wand.

Instead, "personal power" was/is an inate sense of self-worth and dignity that did not ebb and flow, but rather grew, as years passed and i grew older and more accomplished. i believe without any doubt at all that this quality of my self was something others could detect -- and that many boogiemen moved on to more pliable targets.

i liken :personal power" to a sort of attraction; people want to be near me because they sense that it's a safer place and possibly a more fun place. Of course, i think it incites some other people and has led to power struggles or interpersonal disputes. So, it's a double-edged sword.

i think this is one of those matters that either You are able to take on faith or not. Either You've experienced great personal power Yourself or met someone who possesses it, and so You understand what i am describing, or You don't.

candystripper


< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/29/2005 7:12:04 AM >

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 9:11:47 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

quote:

But LA, Power and Authority are interlinked, they come together when one is used. I think you'll find what I have posted demonstrates this adequately. Remember that BDSM is not the whole reason for living there are so many other other areas in which the power/authority dynamic is in play.

IronBear


Respectfully Sir i disagree. i have known many people in a position of authority over me who had no personal power; they invariably tried to use fear tactics to obtain the behavior they desired. Since -- in my unusual circumstances -- i was fearless of them, they could not control me unless they actually laid hands on me. As i grew older, the possibility of "forcing" me to do anything by dint of physical force became less likely. The nuns could not beat me down once i became 12 yrs old or so; and in high school i carried a switchblade, which i used more than once.

These days, alot of the physical force i had at 20 has ebbed but in its place are a myriad of behaviors i can use to defend myself/avenge myself or someone i love; create peace and repell drama and bulls**t, and so forth. And this seems to increase expoentially with each passig year.

i no longer submit due to force to any authority, not even the law. It happens i have a strong moral code that prevents me from wrecking havoc, but there are circumstances in which i have broken and will break the law with impunity. There are circumstances i could posit in which i would commit murder, and i would not be convicted. There are circumstances in which i am just a plain scofflaw. My Church does not hold any authority over me, apart from administering the sacraments. Those to whom i am bound and whose well-being is as important as my own were chosen well and return that love; there is no "authority" in being tethered to destinies other than one's own out of love.

Someday soon, i will hopefully find my One, and then i think He will have authority. But it will be only what authority i grant Him, subject to withdrawal.

i am truely a free woman.

candystripper



Yes lass I agree with you in the respect that they had no power similar to what I have been refering to, and yet, I submit that they did indeed have power and exorcised it. Their power was the use of fear, that they found it necessary to use fear tacts which is just an alternative way of saying that they used "rituals" to bring about fear in their authorative situation, is only demonstrating how little they understood about the dynamics of positive power. I see fear in most forms as a negative power. I further submit that the myriad of behaviors which you use to defend or avenge yourself are nothing more than a ways and means to use your personal power. If I may I'd like to repost my original concept of power and it's application to cause change whereby I believe you will see that what I'm saying is qualified by it....

Postulate
Any required Change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner through the proper medium to the proper object.
Ergo

The first requisite for causing any change is thorough qualitative and quantitative understanding of the conditions.

And

The second requisite of causing any change is the practical ability to set in right motion the necessary forces.

However

A Man whose conscious will; is at odds with his True Will is wasting his strength. He cannot hope to influence his environment efficiently.

Perhaps this is something that we may discuss privately if you wish as well from personal perspectives and not just within a BDSM format.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 9:13:49 AM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

The dominant has the authority, the slave doesn't.


No, almost always the slave has the same authority as the dominant, they just don't use it. The slave lacks authority only when those around the relationship act to enforce the M/s dynamic through laws and/ or coercion which happens rarely in the modern developed world. I can see why some slaves would actively try to forget that they have the same authority as the dominant, but wishing does not make it so.

Several in this discussion seem to be confusing supression of will on the slaves part with the slave lacking authority. This is taking consentual slavery as enforced slavery. The two are completely different in almost every way.

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 9:22:33 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ICGsteve

quote:

The dominant has the authority, the slave doesn't.


No, almost always the slave has the same authority as the dominant, they just don't use it. The slave lacks authority only when those around the relationship act to enforce the M/s dynamic through laws and/ or coercion which happens rarely in the modern developed world. I can see why some slaves would actively try to forget that they have the same authority as the dominant, but wishing does not make it so.

Several in this discussion seem to be confusing supression of will on the slaves part with the slave lacking authority. This is taking consentual slavery as enforced slavery. The two are completely different in almost every way.


Would you not agree then that authority should always be used or refered to in the context in which it is to be excorsised? E.G. A Military Officer onlu has the authority of his rank within the confines of a military situation or location, but has no authority other than any individual in a civilian situation and among civilians. Because we tend to be in a BDSM, D/s, M/s or Gorean Mindset here, it is easy to forget that a sub or slave may, in her occupation for example, have a great deal of authority. I'm also darned sure that you would not use the same authority when dealing with people you work with especially if they are subordinate to you as you would with a submissive in your collar at home or at a scene.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 9:27:51 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Perhaps this is something that we may discuss privately if you wish as well from personal perspectives and not just within a BDSM format.

IronBear


Thank You for Your gracious offer, Sir. i accept. i know i will find it a very enlightning discussion. If anyone else wishes to join the discussion, i can "pull" people into a Yahoo IM if i have their Yahoo IM ID and we agree on a time (please translate into EST for my benefit.) i'd enjoying listening to You give a bit of a mini-seminar and then possibly taking questions. However, i know You are very busy, so of course, the first question is would this be acceptable to You? (Second question is whether anyone else wishes to join us?)

candystripper


< Message edited by candystripper -- 11/29/2005 9:28:18 AM >

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 9:42:30 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
Lets think of it as a sharing of information and how it can be used rather than a mini-semilar.. and I'll get back to you on this thread in the next day and hoefully I'll find my time conversion chart then we can plan a good YM session with whoever.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 9:48:05 AM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

A Military Officer onlu has the authority of his rank within the confines of a military situation or location


The military structure is one of enforced submission, one who doesn't follow orders quickly finds this out. It is true that the soldier has contracted his service as a submissive just as a slave does, the difference is that the military contract is enforced by the society while the slave contract not only is not, but is often viewed as evidence of abuse. The military officer has authority, the dominant does not which is proven when the slave runs away and finds a shelter and a lawer, while the soldier who runs away finds a jail cell waiting.

Sure, you could say that my wife grants me authority to have control over her, but it is only on loan and she could take it back at any time. I do not as of yet participate with anyone else but the same would hold at a scene or party. Where it gets fuzzy is taking the concept of authority to the possibility of manipulating her with the goal of driving her deeper into submission than she currently desires to go. Those in society would almost universally label this as abuse if it were to happen, yet it seems to happen fairly frequenty in D/s relationships. Does this mean that I have real authority over her other than what she has consciously loaned me? Is this a virtual authority that does not exist yet is usefull none the less? What do you think Iron Bear?

< Message edited by ICGsteve -- 11/29/2005 10:00:11 AM >

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 9:55:33 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Lets think of it as a sharing of information and how it can be used rather than a mini-semilar.. and I'll get back to you on this thread in the next day and hoefully I'll find my time conversion chart then we can plan a good YM session with whoever.

IronBear


Thank You so much for Your generosity, Sir. Your kindness just takes my breath away sometimes.

candystripper

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 10:04:12 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Sure, you could say that my wife grants me authority to have control over her, but it is only on loan and she could take it back at any time. I do not as of yet participate with anyone else but the same would hold at a scene or party. Where it gets fuzzy is taking the concept of authority to the possibility of manipulating her with the goal of driving her deeper into submission than she currently desires to go. Those in society would almost universally label this as abuse if it were to happen, yet it seems to happen fairly frequenty in D/s relationships. Does this mean that I have real authority over her other than what she has consciously loaned me? Is this a virtual authority that does not exist yet is usefull none the less? What do you think Iron Bear?

ICGSteve


i cannot resist adding my two cents. By the phrase "driving her deeper into submission than she currently desires to go" i can only assume You are asking "what if i get her to things she hates/fears/suffers from just to please me?" My rejoiner is this violates the very basis of a M/s or D/s relationship. It is an abrogation of the duty He undertook to protect her from harm. It also abrogates the duty He undertook to help her discover her submissive nature -- by imposing behavior on her that is not yet within her range. It is selfish and cruel, and violates the promise He made to her, to treasure her and love her. If this happened to me, i'd leave. Pushing limits is a fun thing; learning together new ways to bring one another sexual joy. Pushing her completely out of her range is a different kettle of fish; at that moment, the Man has abrogated His role as Dom or Master and has become her tormentor.

candystripper

(in reply to ICGsteve)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 11:04:24 AM   
ICGsteve


Posts: 202
Joined: 2/2/2005
Status: offline
quote:

i can only assume You are asking "what if i get her to things she hates/fears/suffers from just to please me?


I was not wondering about breaking limits, I was getting at the question of what is going on when a submissive says "I am willing to to X,Y and Z" and the dominant uses whatever is a within the limits to try to encourage the sub to develope their submissive nature beyond the point that the sub currently wants to go. If I ask the sub today she says that she does not want to go "there" yet the dom actively tries to create the conditions that will he hopes propell her to grow as a submissive beyond the point she currently feels is an acceptable goal. This seems to happen quite often in long term committed relationships, though maybe I am wrong. If it does happen, is this using authority or is this abuse? Relationship maintance as it is actually conducted by dominants makes me wonder if I am correct that dominants only have the authority that has been loaned by the submissive.


(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 11:45:17 AM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
To Everyone: i retract my offer to arrange a Yahoo IM several people can attend for the purpose of listening to IronBear. First, he graciously offered to discuss this subject with me -- alone -- in private. It is not my place to ask Him on the boards to conduct a seminar.

Second, such a Yahoo IM would require we all disclose our Yahoo IM ID's, and it is inappropriate to ask IronBear or anyone else to make such personal information public.

Please forgive my gaff. It was a case of implusive, short-sighted thinking.

candystripper

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 12:51:44 PM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
Its been interesting to me to read the various comments and discussions in this thread. The original poster spoke of a very Zen like experience of feeling centered and balanced, which can be a powerful personal experience. There is also something to be said, particularly for dominants, in remaining centered enough that they no longer react to what happens around them, but instead act of their own choosing.

In many cases the words power, authority and control are synonymous and used interchangeably to describe the influence one person exerts over another. I think it would be useful to keep in mind that arguing over symantics is not generally helpful when trying to understand that influence.

Often the concept of power is tied to self worth because we (as a society) associate having power with personal worth, which means conversely we assume if a person is powerless they must be worthless (literally worth less than someone who has power). If we divorce ourselves of that notion, then we can assign personal worth and self worth without relating it to personal power. That is, a submissive can be powerless in a relationship and still have value. We can do this by assigning value based on something else... usefulness. That is, a submissive may have no power (control) in a relationship, but if they are useful they still have worth. I think that sets up a much healthier dynamic and better suited to a D/s relationship (since usefulness leads to service, something generally part of D/s relationships in some form).

Something that has helped me understand the kinds of influence/control/authority/power/leadership one can exert comes from John Maxwell's "Developing the Leader Within You," in which he describes five levels of leadership. They are, in ascending order:

Positional Authority - People follow because they have to.
Leadership by Permission - People follow because they want to.
Leadership by Production - People follow because of what you have or can achieve
People Development - People follow because of what you have done for them
Personhood - People follow because of who you are and what you represent

There are many dominants in this lifestyle, particularly those who are new, who have only Positional Authority. They latch on to the title of Master and expect people to obey them simply because they are now a "master", they expect the rank or title to give them authority. Arguments over how much a dominant should be obeyed at a public gathering (or even if they should be at all), are often really arguments about positional authority and whether others recognize it at all. The reality is positional authority is the weakest form of authority and without a group to back it up, it doesn't exist. If you are not a member of a club or munch group which insists on dominats be treated with a certain degree of deference then calling yourself a Master does not bring with it any positional authority outside of any personal relationship you establish with individuals.

Leadership by Permission is probably one of the most common forms of dominance in this lifestyle. This is where submission exists as a gift, and where dominance is entirely by agreement. Contractual agreements epitomize this level of dominance. The submissive follows because they want to, and only for as long as they want to. A dominant at this level rules only by permission of those ruled, think constitutional monarchy. D/s relationships at this level focus on the personal relationships, attention to personal needs, wants and desires. None-the-less its an important level to achieve precisely because it does focus on personal relationships. You cannot lead anyone for long if you cannot establish a personal relationship with them.

Leadership by Production is one most men relate to the best, its about getting things done. At this level a dominant's influence comes from their achievements, what they have done, are doing and are going to do. That might be being adept at particular styles of fetish play, being an articulate and knowledgeable teacher regarding they dynamics of the lifestyle, having written books on the lifestyle, given demonstrations at events, etc... but ultimately its the accomplishments of the dominant that draws submissives to follow. A dominant might try to skip the second level and go straight to this level, but that won't work over the long term. Without the personal relationships developed at the second level (Permission), the dominant's influence will only last as long as they can continue to lead the submissive towards new achievements. Simply put, the submissive follows because of what the dominant can do.

People Development is the fourth level and about as high as most of us will ever get. At this level the dominants influence comes from developing the submissive's potential. That is, the submissive follows because the dominant helps them to be more than they could be on their own. At this level dominance starts becoming about inspiration, inspiring a submissive to be their best, to try their best. Not just their best as a submissive, but their personal best as a person.

Personhood... every dominant wants to claim to be at this level, few of us get there. At this level people follow you because of who you are, because who you are inspires them even if you aren't actively trying to help them grow. Your character, your personal achievements, how you relate to others, all the qualities developed at the previous levels come together to make you a person who inspires others to follow.

Its interesting to note how things shift the higher you go. At the basic level a dominant's authority comes from others, a group. Above that it comes from the individual submissive (permission). But when a dominant grows beyond that it (influence, dominance, authority, power, etc.) truly begins to flow from within, because it becomes based on the nature of the individual dominant, first on achievements and later on how they affect others. Can a submissive still choose not to follow in these later cases? Sure, but not without giving up something that is either not easily replaced or is irreplaceable because it was unique to that dominant. At this point the submissive cannot walk away without losing something themselves.

Something else I've noticed. When I see others wanting their "power" or "authority" recognized by others, I often find the case to be that person is actually seeking positional authority... they are looking for or trying to create a group to give them that positional authority by "recognizing" them. The higher you go in the above hierarchy of influence, the less you see that sort of seeking. At Personhood just the opposite occurs, they no longer seek recognition, rather recognition seeks them.

A third thing I've noticed is that at the beginning of that heirarchy of influence is where "Master" is most likely to be viewed as a title or rank... but as one ascends through the various levels it tends to transition into a state of being. I think that indicates an important shift if perspective.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to DarkSpark)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 2:27:21 PM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline
The semantics in this discussion are found in any examination of sociological tenets. With us, there are many theories of why we do what we do. We use hypotheses, but not scientific methods to make our points. Experience is the judge of our theories and points of view. Any other judge is inherently flawed as much as Lance Ito was.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 3:09:58 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
quote:

People Development is the fourth level and about as high as most of us will ever get. At this level the dominants influence comes from developing the submissive's potential. That is, the submissive follows because the dominant helps them to be more than they could be on their own. At this level dominance starts becoming about inspiration, inspiring a submissive to be their best, to try their best. Not just their best as a submissive, but their personal best as a person.

Personhood... every dominant wants to claim to be at this level, few of us get there. At this level people follow you because of who you are, because who you are inspires them even if you aren't actively trying to help them grow. Your character, your personal achievements, how you relate to others, all the qualities developed at the previous levels come together to make you a person who inspires others to follow.

Padriag


Yet another country heard from. All You Gentlemen are more able to articulate what i wanted to say than i; i feel i'm getting a "C" on this thread.

Not to toot my own horn, but i believe i achieved personhood at a very young age and have not lost it. Regardless of my development as a powerful woman, however, i know in my bones i am submissive.

i am at a point in my life where nothing -- not work, not my child, not any further angst from my ex -- will distract me from my One. If and when i find Him, i will be able to spend my time, moving heaven and earth, to bring Him peace and joy.

candystripper

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 3:12:12 PM   
candystripper


Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
Status: offline
Exsteel, i was reading Your board profile. May i ask a dumb question? What is a quirt? Thank You.

candystripper

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 3:26:15 PM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

Exsteel, i was reading Your board profile. May i ask a dumb question? What is a quirt? Thank You.

candystripper



One of those small leather whips with two thin falls....ummm, kind of an attention getter and not a serious thing.


_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Power - 11/29/2005 7:15:41 PM   
ChainedExistence


Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel



One of those small leather whips with two thin falls....ummm, kind of an attention getter and not a serious thing.



Ha! No big thing? Stings like crazy! ( from a fan of thuddy pain) Of course this is from the person on the giving end instead of the receiving end...but he is right, it does get my attention!

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Power Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109