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RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 7:43:37 AM   
Archer


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Status: offline 		meatcleaver well folks that have historicly prayed that their plan was in keeping with God's plan include Lincoln and FDR and Kennedy.
So I guess they qualify as not intelligent?

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 7:55:25 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

meatcleaver well folks that have historicly prayed that their plan was in keeping with God's plan include Lincoln and FDR and Kennedy.
So I guess they qualify as not intelligent?



Well, Rreligion is irrational and politicians invoke it because they have an audience willing to listen to the nonsense. But what war and killing has to do with the reported tachings of Jesus, I've no idea. Most of what is invoked by christians as Jesus's teachings has nothing to do with Jesus but medieval theologians. Wasn't it St Thomas Aquinas who justified war through theology in the 13th century? Kicking someone's head in and praying it is the right thing to do, still smacks to me of using religion to justify one's own violence and not something Jesus's reported teachings ever sanctioned so why pray to god for approval if you are a bona fide christian?

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RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:07:46 AM   
Archer


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Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		why pray to god for approval if you are a bona fide christian?

This is where I'm having the disconnect.
If I pray that god approves of my actions that's one thing.
If I pray that I am interpreting gods will correctly that is a different thing entirely.

I see Palin's speach and Kennedy's and Lincolns to be in the second example praying that I am interpreting gods will correctly.
FDR's was a bit more boarderline, closer to the first. (praying for approval and help)


< Message edited by Archer -- 9/12/2008 8:08:49 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:08:00 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

meatcleaver well folks that have historicly prayed that their plan was in keeping with God's plan include Lincoln and FDR and Kennedy.
So I guess they qualify as not intelligent?



Well, Rreligion is irrational and politicians invoke it because they have an audience willing to listen to the nonsense. But what war and killing has to do with the reported tachings of Jesus, I've no idea. Most of what is invoked by christians as Jesus's teachings has nothing to do with Jesus but medieval theologians. Wasn't it St Thomas Aquinas who justified war through theology in the 13th century? Kicking someone's head in and praying it is the right thing to do, still smacks to me of using religion to justify one's own violence and not something Jesus's reported teachings ever sanctioned so why pray to god for approval if you are a bona fide christian?


See now we are getting to the core of your objection.  YOU believe that religion is irrational, therefore anybody that prays must also then be irrational.

Nothing wrong with stating your opinion, but don't try to hide it in amongst the muck and mire.  You believe it perfectly acceptable to be intolerant of Christians because of their beliefs.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:17:07 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

meatcleaver well folks that have historicly prayed that their plan was in keeping with God's plan include Lincoln and FDR and Kennedy.
So I guess they qualify as not intelligent?



Well, Rreligion is irrational and politicians invoke it because they have an audience willing to listen to the nonsense. But what war and killing has to do with the reported tachings of Jesus, I've no idea. Most of what is invoked by christians as Jesus's teachings has nothing to do with Jesus but medieval theologians. Wasn't it St Thomas Aquinas who justified war through theology in the 13th century? Kicking someone's head in and praying it is the right thing to do, still smacks to me of using religion to justify one's own violence and not something Jesus's reported teachings ever sanctioned so why pray to god for approval if you are a bona fide christian?


See now we are getting to the core of your objection.  YOU believe that religion is irrational, therefore anybody that prays must also then be irrational.

Nothing wrong with stating your opinion, but don't try to hide it in amongst the muck and mire.  You believe it perfectly acceptable to be intolerant of Christians because of their beliefs.


What Palin said was nonsense and a justification for her temporal views.

I do believe religion is irrational but I can live with it but it is especially irrational when people claim to believe in a religion and twist that religion in any amount of knots to justify their own beliefs and actions, especially when their stated beliefs are so much against what the religion teaches in the first place.

Where does the reported teachings of Jesus say violence for advancing ones political beliefs is OK?

EDIT- Silly me, she prays to god that her warped beliefs are OK.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/12/2008 8:18:50 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:23:18 AM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

meatcleaver well folks that have historicly prayed that their plan was in keeping with God's plan include Lincoln and FDR and Kennedy.
So I guess they qualify as not intelligent?



Well, Rreligion is irrational and politicians invoke it because they have an audience willing to listen to the nonsense. But what war and killing has to do with the reported tachings of Jesus, I've no idea. Most of what is invoked by christians as Jesus's teachings has nothing to do with Jesus but medieval theologians. Wasn't it St Thomas Aquinas who justified war through theology in the 13th century? Kicking someone's head in and praying it is the right thing to do, still smacks to me of using religion to justify one's own violence and not something Jesus's reported teachings ever sanctioned so why pray to god for approval if you are a bona fide christian?


See now we are getting to the core of your objection.  YOU believe that religion is irrational, therefore anybody that prays must also then be irrational.

Nothing wrong with stating your opinion, but don't try to hide it in amongst the muck and mire.  You believe it perfectly acceptable to be intolerant of Christians because of their beliefs.


What Palin said was nonsense and a justification for her temporal views.

I do believe religion is irrational but I can live with it but it is especially irrational when people claim to believe in a religion and twist that religion in any amount of knots to justify their own beliefs and actions, especially when their stated beliefs are so much against what the religion teaches in the first place.

Where does the reported teachings of Jesus say violence for advancing ones political beliefs is OK?


She was speaking at a CHURCH, how is that advancing ones political beliefs?  For somebody that believes religion is irrational, you do seem to "know" an awful lot about what is or isn't taught in the first place.  Then again I suppose the Bible never talks about certain generals or wars or smiting the enemy, I must have added all of that stuff in via my own imagination...

Edited to add your edit and a response:

quote:

EDIT- Silly me, she prays to god that her warped beliefs are OK.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/12/2008 11:18:50 AM >


Her beliefs are warped and irrational now, oh and she is unintelligent because of those prayers?  Thanks for clearing that up.  I do hope that the Dems pick up on your message, it will be a real winner.

< Message edited by Thadius -- 9/12/2008 8:26:36 AM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:28:19 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

She was speaking at a CHURCH, how is that advancing ones political beliefs?  For somebody that believes religion is irrational, you do seem to "know" an awful lot about what is or isn't taught in the first place.  Then again I suppose the Bible never talks about certain generals or wars or smiting the enemy, I must have added all of that stuff in via my own imagination...


Jesus was supposed to be a new beginning, not a regurgitation of the old hateful, wrathful god that commanded Moses to commit genocide in the old testament. That is supposed to be the point of Jesus's teachings, he preached peace, forgiveness and loving they enemy, that is what being christian is supposed to be about, not kicking someone's front door in murdering them and stealing what they have and praying to god that it is OK.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/12/2008 8:29:06 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:31:38 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Where does the reported teachings of Jesus say violence for advancing ones political beliefs is OK?


They don't.
I responded as I believe your question warrented a 'proper' reply(seeing as you haven't had one sofar).
 
the.dark.

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:38:08 AM   
Thadius


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Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

She was speaking at a CHURCH, how is that advancing ones political beliefs?  For somebody that believes religion is irrational, you do seem to "know" an awful lot about what is or isn't taught in the first place.  Then again I suppose the Bible never talks about certain generals or wars or smiting the enemy, I must have added all of that stuff in via my own imagination...


Jesus was supposed to be a new beginning, not a regurgitation of the old hateful, wrathful god that commanded Moses to commit genocide in the old testament. That is supposed to be the point of Jesus's teachings, he preached peace, forgiveness and loving they enemy, that is what being christian is about, not kicking someone's front door in murdering them and stealing what they have and praying to god that it is OK.


He also said that he was not there to change the law one iota.  His covenant was to take the sins upon himself, and thus do away with the need for sacrifice, as he was that ultimate sacrifice.  Yes there is a message of love and peace, but to say that he suggested that the defense of ones nation or people is wrong, and clearly reads way to much into the "turn the other cheek".  In a generalized example; if you strike me, and I turn the other cheek, and you strike me again, don't expect me to stand there and allow for another strike, I am going to put you on your ass.  See how it works?

Just a bitter man in the Midwest, clinging to his guns and religion,
Thadius

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:43:45 AM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		She's in a church (her church) before she was running as VP candidate.
Her remarks FIT the audience, they fit the situation and they fit the mainstream christian doctrine of praying that your decissions (or those of the political leaders) are in keeping with god's will.

The rest is muck raking sensationalism and bias.



(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:45:53 AM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		No, the rest is not being fooled by smokes and mirror: the dizzying sultans of spins have failed again.

_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:49:08 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
He also said that he was not there to change the law one iota.  His covenant was to take the sins upon himself, and thus do away with the need for sacrifice, as he was that ultimate sacrifice.  Yes there is a message of love and peace, but to say that he suggested that the defense of ones nation or people is wrong, and clearly reads way to much into the "turn the other cheek".  In a generalized example; if you strike me, and I turn the other cheek, and you strike me again, don't expect me to stand there and allow for another strike, I am going to put you on your ass.  See how it works?



It had nothing to do with turning the other cheek.  It had everything to do with that specific moment in time (biblically - with the arrest of Jesus) and the fact that the disciples were to hold arms, but not to use them first.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:52:07 AM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
He also said that he was not there to change the law one iota.  His covenant was to take the sins upon himself, and thus do away with the need for sacrifice, as he was that ultimate sacrifice.  Yes there is a message of love and peace, but to say that he suggested that the defense of ones nation or people is wrong, and clearly reads way to much into the "turn the other cheek".  In a generalized example; if you strike me, and I turn the other cheek, and you strike me again, don't expect me to stand there and allow for another strike, I am going to put you on your ass.  See how it works?



It had nothing to do with turning the other cheek.  It had everything to do with that specific moment in time (biblically - with the arrest of Jesus) and the fact that the disciples were to hold arms, but not to use them first.
 
the.dark.

 
Yet there is an example of them using those arms in the garden.   My point was that folks try to use the "turn the other cheek" and peaceful message of love thy neighbor, to suggest that Christians should not defend themselves or their nation.  That this defense is somehow hypocrisy.
 
That is the only point I was making.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:53:42 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

She's in a church (her church) before she was running as VP candidate.
Her remarks FIT the audience, they fit the situation and they fit the mainstream christian doctrine of praying that your decissions (or those of the political leaders) are in keeping with god's will.

The rest is muck raking sensationalism and bias.



Oh well, I guess christians and muslims have a lot in common.

They decide what god thinks for him.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 9/12/2008 8:54:14 AM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:57:37 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

She's in a church (her church) before she was running as VP candidate.
Her remarks FIT the audience, they fit the situation and they fit the mainstream christian doctrine of praying that your decissions (or those of the political leaders) are in keeping with god's will.

The rest is muck raking sensationalism and bias.



Oh well, I guess christians and muslims have a lot in common.


Yes, they actually do.  Just to cap off this comment with an appropriate response... As much as the rest of the world is going to hate it, they don't get to elect our president, no matter how much they wish they could.

Que sera sera.

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 8:59:44 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

She's in a church (her church) before she was running as VP candidate.
Her remarks FIT the audience, they fit the situation and they fit the mainstream christian doctrine of praying that your decissions (or those of the political leaders) are in keeping with god's will.

The rest is muck raking sensationalism and bias.



Oh well, I guess christians and muslims have a lot in common.


Yes, they actually do.  Just to cap off this comment with an appropriate response... As much as the rest of the world is going to hate it, they don't get to elect our president, no matter how much they wish they could.

Que sera sera.


So you lost the argument then.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 9:01:19 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Yet there is an example of them using those arms in the garden.  


Would you mind citing the example for me as I have drawn a blank to what you refer to?  Thanks in advance.
 
quote:

 
My point was that folks try to use the "turn the other cheek" and peaceful message of love thy neighbor, to suggest that Christians should not defend themselves or their nation.  That this defense is somehow hypocrisy.
 
That is the only point I was making.

 
I understand.
Yet Jesus instructed not to use said 'sword'.  He advocated that it should never be drawn, only as an ultimate last resort.  The apostles never drew them that is on record, they obeyed his word - Jesus stood by his own words.  Absolutely they are to be had for defense.  But to be the one to draw them, was not Gods word.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Thadius)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 9:04:08 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

She's in a church (her church) before she was running as VP candidate.
Her remarks FIT the audience, they fit the situation and they fit the mainstream christian doctrine of praying that your decissions (or those of the political leaders) are in keeping with god's will.

The rest is muck raking sensationalism and bias.



Oh well, I guess christians and muslims have a lot in common.


Yes, they actually do.  Just to cap off this comment with an appropriate response... As much as the rest of the world is going to hate it, they don't get to elect our president, no matter how much they wish they could.

Que sera sera.


So you lost the argument then.


If that is the way you see it.. so be it.  It makes no sense to argue in circles with you.  You believe that religious faith is irrational, therefore any discussion of somebody practicing their faith or praying, starts from that perspective.  I cannot convince you of what folks believe, or that their belief is quite rational to them and to many others, therefore there is nothing to be gained from the discussion.  As I do not choose to attack you for intolerance, I will humbly leave it as it is, for now.



_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 9:05:28 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

She's in a church (her church) before she was running as VP candidate.
Her remarks FIT the audience, they fit the situation and they fit the mainstream christian doctrine of praying that your decissions (or those of the political leaders) are in keeping with god's will.


It all comes down the being saved via Jesus.  If you pray to god that the will be Gods, then you are opening yourself to being wrong - so when you come face to face with Jesus, you can avoid rejection because of an 'honest' mistake.
Fortunately, Jesus - or rather God - isn't so easily fooled.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: ABC has posted Palin interview excerpts - 9/12/2008 9:05:43 AM   
Thadius


Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
Yet there is an example of them using those arms in the garden.  


Would you mind citing the example for me as I have drawn a blank to what you refer to?  Thanks in advance.
 
quote:

 
My point was that folks try to use the "turn the other cheek" and peaceful message of love thy neighbor, to suggest that Christians should not defend themselves or their nation.  That this defense is somehow hypocrisy.
 
That is the only point I was making.

 
I understand.
Yet Jesus instructed not to use said 'sword'.  He advocated that it should never be drawn, only as an ultimate last resort.  The apostles never drew them that is on record, they obeyed his word - Jesus stood by his own words.  Absolutely they are to be had for defense.  But to be the one to draw them, was not Gods word.
 
the.dark.

 
Remember the ear that Peter cut off?

_____________________________

When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 60
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