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The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:39:09 PM   
MadRabbit


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Recently, I was having a private discussion with a fellow CM poster I respect very much who has a few decades on me as far as life experience.

One of his opinions that really caught my eye was something that I had reflected upon a couple of times in the past.

That it would be increadingly harder and harder for someone of my generation to find a female submissive for the kind of male dominated relationship that I wanted in comparision to 20 years ago, because society teaches women more and more that what we want isn't right.

Now...don't get me wrong. I am not saying this is a BAD thing or that I wish feminism wasn't around. I would much rather spent more time looking for a partner than live in a society where one group of people were indirectly taught they HAD to do what I wanted, because of their gender.

I'm curious as to whether or not you find this perception grounded in reality.

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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:41:40 PM   
Ialdabaoth


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Definitely, yes. Even (hell, sometimes *especially*) in the pro-kink psychology/psychiatry arena, I've seen several female submissives be taught that they should self-empower and stand up to their Masters, and then learn to grow beyond needing a Master and be their own person. Oddly, I haven't heard the same thing said to male submissives even by the same psychologists.

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:45:16 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Recently, I was having a private discussion with a fellow CM poster I respect very much who has a few decades on me as far as life experience.

One of his opinions that really caught my eye was something that I had reflected upon a couple of times in the past.

That it would be increadingly harder and harder for someone of my generation to find a female submissive for the kind of male dominated relationship that I wanted in comparision to 20 years ago, because society teaches women more and more that what we want isn't right.

Now...don't get me wrong. I am not saying this is a BAD thing or that I wish feminism wasn't around. I would much rather spent more time looking for a partner than live in a society where one group of people were indirectly taught they HAD to do what I wanted, because of their gender.

I'm curious as to whether or not you find this perception grounded in reality.


No, I do not find that to be the case.
 
My experience is that, the more free women feel to express themselves, the more some of them desire to indulge their submissive desires and, in some cases, natures.
 

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:46:03 PM   
hopelessfool


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No. I think its a more natural thing some people are dominant some are submissive.. The fact is, I dont NEED a Master or Dom. Which makes the fact that I wish one, all that more stronger inside of me. I wish to submit because I want to, not because Im to weak to have to. I was raised in the same environment as all my peers but they do not wish the same. -shrugs- What I find hard is finding someone who wishes to take control in my age group instead of going, Oh, You want me to make the choices, but dont you want a say. Whats wrong with you for wanting to submit.

_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:48:31 PM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

Definitely, yes. Even (hell, sometimes *especially*) in the pro-kink psychology/psychiatry arena, I've seen several female submissives be taught that they should self-empower and stand up to their Masters, and then learn to grow beyond needing a Master and be their own person. Oddly, I haven't heard the same thing said to male submissives even by the same psychologists.


That's because the psychologists *are* male subs.

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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:48:42 PM   
LadyLupineNYC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ialdabaoth

*snip* Oddly, I haven't heard the same thing said to male submissives even by the same psychologists.


Actually, I spent great deal of time trying to convince my slave to do just that; he is learning.  On to the question at hand: I can see this as being an unpopular post, but I agree with the sentiment.  I feel that if a woman wants to ‘fully submit’ she should have just as much as ’right’ to it than a male submissive. While I am sure that there are individual relationships that have this dynamic, I see only the Gorean adherents embracing this as a group.  Maybe that is where the ‘total’ submission females go, who knows but I do feel that woman have just as much right to empower as they do to submit.


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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:49:07 PM   
KneelforAnne


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MadRabbit,

In a way i do agree.  Many women feel that being equal both in and out of home is what they want.  Now, the questions is...do they really want that or is that what they are taught to want?

i also think that because of the way equality and feminism is presented, wanting to be submissive...to encourage that part of oneself, is seen as dirty and base.  People not in the lifestyle wonder what happend to you, to make you this way.  It is seen as unnatural, whereas in the past...it was completely natural.  And isn't that funny.... 

i find myself in a strange position, being both a feminist and a submissive.  i think that for me, submission is the way to go.  But i also think that if i do the work of a man, i should get the pay of a man.  *smiles*

Hopefully, some day equality/feminism will be taught as "it's ok to want what you want, be what you want to be"

Think that will ever happen?

~anne


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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:49:50 PM   
VivaciousSub


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Joined: 9/7/2008
From: Tampa, FL
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MR,

I've been doing some reading into this as of late and while I agree that the chances are lessened, they're not destroyed. Personally I am finding more women of my generation (I'm in my late 20s) are seriously reconsidering the ideals of the feminist revolution and have found some of them to be wanting. A lot of the women I know, for instance, are more comfortable with the idea and desire to submit to men than the media would have us think.

Speaking for ourselves, I can say we don't want to submit because it's "expected" of us because we're women, but because it feels right and within the natural order of things. The women I speak of are intelligent, well-educated and loving people. We don't see submission as 'lessening' ourselves in any way, shape, or form but more along the lines of accepting fully our blessings, talents and desires for a harmonious, fulfilled life.



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(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:50:28 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Recently, I was having a private discussion with a fellow CM poster I respect very much who has a few decades on me as far as life experience.

One of his opinions that really caught my eye was something that I had reflected upon a couple of times in the past.

That it would be increadingly harder and harder for someone of my generation to find a female submissive for the kind of male dominated relationship that I wanted in comparision to 20 years ago, because society teaches women more and more that what we want isn't right.

Now...don't get me wrong. I am not saying this is a BAD thing or that I wish feminism wasn't around. I would much rather spent more time looking for a partner than live in a society where one group of people were indirectly taught they HAD to do what I wanted, because of their gender.

I'm curious as to whether or not you find this perception grounded in reality.


No, I do not find that to be the case.
 
My experience is that, the more free women feel to express themselves, the more some of them desire to indulge their submissive desires and, in some cases, natures.
 

I agree with that.  I will also say that as with all things, the cycle of life will eventually turn in on itself. Even if there is a turn away from this type of living there will always be a return to what comes natural.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:53:01 PM   
Icarys


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Status: offline
quote:

not because Im to weak to have to.


You know there are women that do it out of a natural inclination and not because they are "weak". Some are more dependent on others naturally and shouldn't be looked down on because of it.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to hopelessfool)
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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:53:11 PM   
leakylee


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i dont. i know my mother's generation running about in the 60's were the first to hit college, marry, and have the babies, but they were also the first to burn thier bras and need a career. as a good southern girl, yeah, we were supposed to do college, marriage, kids, but.. it was alright if we didnt. it is acceptable to be single, to find your own way even as a spinster. this really is going somewhere.

without that feminism, i truly dont belive that option would be there. we have that choice to step out of traditionally accepted boxes. to go beyond what our mothers and grandmothers had. we have the freedom and the independence to make our own informed decisions. of course, it may come with a decades of social training, but at least (hopefully) you know that you are getting a person that knows themselves. that is truly making an informed option, not something based on conditioning.

smooches
lee

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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:53:22 PM   
dementdsuby


Posts: 12
Joined: 9/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

That it would be increadingly harder and harder for someone of my generation to find a female submissive for the kind of male dominated relationship that I wanted in comparision to 20 years ago, because society teaches women more and more that what we want isn't right.

Now...don't get me wrong. I am not saying this is a BAD thing or that I wish feminism wasn't around. I would much rather spent more time looking for a partner than live in a society where one group of people were indirectly taught they HAD to do what I wanted, because of their gender.


As a feminist....and a submissive....I would have to say that in this era what you will find is a free female who wants and needs to submit - as opposed to one who has no options or independence and thus no choice in the matter. 

Now I have a mental picture of Ward and June Cleaver in my head...that I am sure is in violation of copyright laws.  lol

(in reply to MadRabbit)
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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:53:30 PM   
IrishMist


Posts: 7480
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Recently, I was having a private discussion with a fellow CM poster I respect very much who has a few decades on me as far as life experience.

One of his opinions that really caught my eye was something that I had reflected upon a couple of times in the past.

That it would be increadingly harder and harder for someone of my generation to find a female submissive for the kind of male dominated relationship that I wanted in comparision to 20 years ago, because society teaches women more and more that what we want isn't right.

Now...don't get me wrong. I am not saying this is a BAD thing or that I wish feminism wasn't around. I would much rather spent more time looking for a partner than live in a society where one group of people were indirectly taught they HAD to do what I wanted, because of their gender.

I'm curious as to whether or not you find this perception grounded in reality.

I partially disagree only because I sincerely believe that much of it has to do with HOW a person is raised; not WHEN they were raised.

I grew up in a house where yes, the male was the dominant personality and my mother was sub-servient and submissive to him. However, we were not raised to blindly believe in this. We were raised to respect our parents; if they told us to do something, we did, no questions asked...period. We never would have thought to 'play one against the other'; it just was not something that would be tolerated in my family.
The smaller things were just picked up through the years. At meal times, the men were served first; not becasue we were told that is the way it is done, but because my mother always served my father and brothers first, and then us; before she served herself. If we had issues with something, we always went to my father first; not because we were told that was the way to do things but because we saw my father as being the stronger of the two. It just made sense to go to him first.

With my own kids, they probably just picked up the same kind of pattern that I picked up growing up. They were never told that this is the way things are; they just followed my example. Their father and and the boys were always served first; even after their father's death. The girls came second. Us girls, took care of the boys in that we cleaned up after them, washed their clothes, cooked their meals and gave them an ear to shout their complaints to. The boys just naturally took up the role of protectors.

It had nothing to do with them being told that this is the way things are; and almost everything to do with them just picking up the same pattern that they saw every day of their lives. It did not stop my oldest daughter though from going out and making a place for herself in a career that is primarlily held by men; nor has it stopped my youngest daughter from expressing exactly what she things about 'men work women stay home' attitudes; nor does it stop both of them from serving a male who enters their home first; before looking to see if the females need anything.

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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:55:48 PM   
LadyLupineNYC


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I agree with leakylee; seems like the *ahem* 'gift of submission' *doges tomatoes* is more valuable with a true choice involved.  

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"I have been looking for a way to serve the community that incorporates my violence..."


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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:56:49 PM   
catize


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Actually I would think women of my generation are more susceptible to fears and anxiety that it might not be okay to be submissive.  I was 20 when the feminist movement started.  I embraced the ideal of a strong, independent woman.  I was never a man-hater (they are too….errrm, interesting!) but was glad that women had choices they never were allowed before. 
My observation is that there is a backlash against feminism in your age group.  The feminist movement is blamed for many of the world’s ills, from the breakdown of the nuclear family to the economy. 
What we tried to do was allow women to have choices---I had to come to terms with that when I decided to explore my submissive side. 

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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:57:26 PM   
hopelessfool


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys


I agree with that.  I will also say that as with all things, the cycle of life will eventually turn in on itself. Even if there is a turn away from this type of living there will always be a return to what comes natural.



But how do we know that women being submissive is "natural"  Look at history, many tribe existed with men being at the head, and many had women as the head, both worked for them. I think natural is different for every person.

For me submitting is natural, its simply something that makes me smile in doing as such.

For my best friend submission is the furthest thing from natural in her life. Shes much more domineering.

Its also a matter of survival to some, being submissive showing any sign of "weakness" as some might see submissives as would be them being destroyed.  For me I was blessed to be in an enjoyable situation where I was raised to be who I am. Some are forced to be submissive some are forced to dominant.

So with all those factors, we must ask. What creates us to be as such, and how do we overcome our environment to bring us back to what is natural to each.


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to Icarys)
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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:58:37 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Recently, I was having a private discussion with a fellow CM poster I respect very much who has a few decades on me as far as life experience.

One of his opinions that really caught my eye was something that I had reflected upon a couple of times in the past.

That it would be increadingly harder and harder for someone of my generation to find a female submissive for the kind of male dominated relationship that I wanted in comparision to 20 years ago, because society teaches women more and more that what we want isn't right.

Now...don't get me wrong. I am not saying this is a BAD thing or that I wish feminism wasn't around. I would much rather spent more time looking for a partner than live in a society where one group of people were indirectly taught they HAD to do what I wanted, because of their gender.

I'm curious as to whether or not you find this perception grounded in reality.


No, I do not find that to be the case.
 
My experience is that, the more free women feel to express themselves, the more some of them desire to indulge their submissive desires and, in some cases, natures.
 

I agree with that.  I will also say that as with all things, the cycle of life will eventually turn in on itself. Even if there is a turn away from this type of living there will always be a return to what comes natural.


The more freedom people have to choose, the more they will tend to choose what is closest to their hearts.  Obviously, not all women are submissive.  But in a free-choice environment, those who are, are better able to seek out that which they desire.
 
True emancipation doesn’t tell women they must be dominant, it merely gives them the freedom of choice to decide what they are.
 

(in reply to Icarys)
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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 3:59:25 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyLupineNYC

I agree with leakylee; seems like the *ahem* 'gift of submission' *doges tomatoes* is more valuable with a true choice involved.  

Why is it? All submission is a choice. Some give it a lot easier than others. Doesn't mean it's still not worth the same.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_2143420/mpage_4/key_/tm.htm#2152463


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/21/2008 4:00:04 PM >


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 4:01:45 PM   
CruelDesires


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What I've seen is that this "lifestyle" has gotten more popular with the older generation's of males and they swarm all of the younger females who make new profiles and drive them off. Or newcomers in general. I believe that they are there... just swarmed over and hammered on by so many idiots and clueless hngs' so that they are driven off in disgust and despair.

C-D

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RE: The Extinction of Female Submission?! - 9/21/2008 4:03:02 PM   
hopelessfool


Posts: 988
Joined: 7/29/2005
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theres no "value" in how fast they give submission but the fact that in this day in age they can CHOOSE to be submissive or not. There for theres much value in that choice. Because its a choice many refuse or will not take.

How is a forced choice a choice. It be much like being forced to do something as a "choice" in violence. A true choice is when someone is being told theres no right or wrong pick the one you want. I personally would despise a man who forced me to be what it is Im not. Because I wouldnt be happy in that choice.

Would you be happy if somoene held you at knife point, made you choose something then you were forced to be held by a choice you would not have made otherwise?


< Message edited by hopelessfool -- 9/21/2008 4:05:30 PM >


_____________________________

" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to Icarys)
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