RE: You Call Yourself a What? (Full Version)

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tweedydaddy -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (9/30/2008 12:25:00 AM)

I am not a plumber, but now again and can be a pretty good Chef. I think you are expecting everybody to have fully evolved into what they are becoming erotically.
Everyone on here is a work in progress, some people are very brave and will take the plunge and meet people, but some people lost their nerve. You may be very confident and outgoing, but that is not true for everybody.
Personally, I would not choose to make assumptions about a person's honesty or integrity because they did not jump and down and respond to me with the speed of light. In this lifestyle fantasy is an essential component of what we do and some people have only the courage to make tentative contacts, they shine on and off like a will o the wisp, and that's the best they can do.
I  have often changed my mind radically about people in the space of a few emails, especially with anyone in a hurry, or trying to pressure me.
If I was getting irate at a lack of response I would watch my blood pressure and question my own approach and stem my eagerness.
Nothing good ever came  easy, or quickly. I spent three years wooing LadyLove, during which time she told me continually to drop dead, get lost, etc, and sent a large friend around to punch me out, we have been married for twenty five years and are the happiest of people. If I wasn't catching the right fish, I would change my bait, not get annoyed with the fish.



SlyStone -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (9/30/2008 5:36:45 AM)


I think its pretty clear that I suck at communicating my ideas on paper, or in this case the computer. I think I am a pretty good communicator in person and that's where it really matter, so I can live with this limitation :)

I think titles and labels are powerful things and generally self imposed labels are given for a reason.  We chose them, or we earn them, or they are placed on us, but in the end they go pretty fucking far in determining how we are viewed and perceived and perhaps how we view and perceive ourselves. And I always wonder when there appears to me to be a disconnect between a persons chosen title/label and reality. 

People seem to be getting bogged down on two points. First that my post referred to only online and second that the  limitations I was speaking of are specific do's and don't s.  I really wasn't thinking about the list of limitations people put in their profile, but rather the ones that they walk around with in their head. And I wasn't talking about specific limitations as in  "I don't do watersports" but rather the kind of limits that preclude someone from being who or what they appear to be.

My observations:

I would agree that in terms of bdsm people chose titles for various reasons. Some cause they are in it for the game and they see it as a game, some cause they are searching for something more, a magic talisman which once taken on will lead them to a kind of peace that is missing in their lives.

I think others take on a title  because that is who they are. It fits like a suite of cloths and there is a pleasure in not only knowing who you are, but not having to waste time explaining it to others. In a few words we can communicate a range of behavior and save a lot of time and wasted effort.

And yes, some are confused and conflicted and perhaps deceptive, both to themselves and to others, and the title/label represents who they wish they were or who they think they need to be in order to be happy. They are attempting to be something they are not and I think we have all gone through that experience at some point in our lives, and it is rarely rewarding.

And finally I think some see it as a loose set of rules through which they can evolve into who they are. or who they need to be. I think this last one may be the closest reason for many people here, or at least ones who have responded to this thread. They see themselves evolving, personally and sexually, and so the title is really not very important in and of itself but rather an easy way to self identify while they go through this growing process.






DesFIP -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (9/30/2008 5:46:34 AM)

I'm one of those subs with a list of things she won't do longer than my arm. Luckily I wasn't looking for the first plumber to come along and clean out my pipes. Only the right one.

You could say it took five years before I found my perfect match or you could say it took a lifetime. The point is, I found him and he says I'm the perfect sub for him. But luckily he wasn't interested in sticking his hose in everybody's sink either, just the right one.

And going around telling people you know nothing about that they don't have the right to want what they want, well you may be dominant or submissive as the case may  be, I don't know about that. What I do know is that you have no manners.



CookieSlave -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (9/30/2008 8:41:46 PM)

SlyStone, you're assuming that people aren't understanding you, but.. I believe I understand you perfectly well, I get the point you are trying to make - really! I just don't necessarily agree, that's all.  You keep insisting, when someone posts a dissenting opinion, that they don't understand, but maybe they just don't agree.

You keep trying to reinforce that people A) don't know what they really are or B) incorrectly define themselves or C) deliberately say they are what they are not because it's more cool/important/impressive/whatever    I think it's largely a matter of interpretation and people's differing levels of perception. Personally, I don't get too wrapped up in the degrees of such labels, unless I have a specific need to know(in which case, I will find out). 

-cs



sistermargaret -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (9/30/2008 11:35:53 PM)

In other words do we define our labels as we go, or are certain labels so defining that if we chose them are we implicitly accepting certain inherent defining characteristics?

Yes .... and yes.
sm
 
All it takes is absolute surrender



ranja -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 2:11:17 AM)

I am sub at home and cyber sub here, my own labels i do not care how others label me really, since i am here for cyber only many tend to think i am not real...i never hit on profiles that state they are looking for real people...i think cyber is greatly underrated but i understand it is not everyones cup of tea



MidMichCowboy -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 2:34:01 AM)

My label is Dominant Male ... which pretty much defines my role in the world from a thousand foot level.

I then expand on this as :

I want and need the woman who can submit to the scholar, the cowboy, the gentleman, the barbarian, the child, and the father that is me.
Labels are just a starting point, actually knowing a person, takes real conversation and effort.

Sometimes it seems we want everything to be easy. Trust me, life is not easy.



leadership527 -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 4:55:51 AM)

Funamentally SlyStone, any argument based upon correct application of labels is going to fail because the labels you are referring to are entirely undefined.  NOBODY can tell you what differentiates a sub from a slave from a bottom from a cucumber.  EVERYONE has their own definitions and they are only loosly related to each other.  I can pretty much guarantee you that if someone labels themself, then they are not making it up.  They are correctly applying their definition of the label to themselves.  The fact that that definition doesn't agree with your definition is entirely unresolvable.  There is no canonical source to go to.  There is no Webster's Unabridge BDSM Dictionary to reference.

Personally, I kind of wish their was such a thing (were it possible).  For me, I don't care what label is applied to myself or my marriage.  I just want to communicate as clearly as possible.  I personally suspect I'm not alone in that thinking.  Once you're actually IN a committed relationship, the need for labels fades away in favor of the reality in front of you.



RedMagic1 -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 5:13:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
There is no canonical source to go to.  There is no Webster's Unabridge BDSM Dictionary to reference.

Actually, there is -- as long as you talk about the physical aspects of BDSM, and not the mental/emotional aspects of D/s.  Rope bondage, impact play, even frikkin scrotal inflation, have specialized descriptive vocabularies that are precise and scientific -- and, in the case of Japanese rope bondage, some of the words are hundreds of years old.

Human minds and human hearts are much more complicated -- and hard to define -- than human bodies.

I do agree with the implication of leadership527 that the concerns/rants brought up by the OP usually come from people who are not in a relationship, or are not happy in their relationship.  People in stable relationships, and people capable of building long-term kinky friendships, know that the person defines the words, not the other way around.



fragilepieces -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 6:48:37 AM)

   
quote:

I am just wondering if people think about the bdsm label they take on, does it have any meaning to them, or is it just a convenient way to broadly define themselves.

 
    Speaking from personal experience, there was a time when I did not think about the label I chose for myself.    I flopped from slave to submissive depending on how I felt on a given day.    
 
    There are a plethora of definitions for all labels.   Over the years, I tried to discover whether I fit in the slave or submissive box.   I have not yet completely defined submissive or slave in my own mind.    Because I have not been able to define either label and feel comfortable with that definition, I currently do not label as either submissive or slave.    For the purpose of CM, I did choose submissive, but I do not consider myself  'A' submissive.   I am a submissive person.    
 
     I do consider myself a masochist and label as such.   I enjoy pain; however my choosing that label can be debated.   I do not enjoy receiving pain from all people, I am not into self  inflicted pain, and some pain simply hurts and is not enjoyable at all.   

     I think most people think about their labels; however, their definition of their label is never going to match everyone else's definition.   With that said, it may appear to some that a person has given no thought to their label.              
        



juliaoceania -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 8:18:58 AM)

quote:

I am just wondering if people think about the bdsm label they take on, does it have any meaning to them, or is it just a convenient way to broadly define themselves.


Are these mutually exclusive concepts? One can think of the label they give themselves and at the same time use one for convenience knowing that what they would ideally want to convey cannot be communicated in a word or phrase... the point is that most people are much more complex than the labels they use.



juliaoceania -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 8:38:00 AM)

quote:

People seem to be getting bogged down on two points. First that my post referred to only online and second that the limitations I was speaking of are specific do's and don't s. I really wasn't thinking about the list of limitations people put in their profile, but rather the ones that they walk around with in their head. And I wasn't talking about specific limitations as in "I don't do watersports" but rather the kind of limits that preclude someone from being who or what they appear to be.


I think the entire trouble here is that you are reading too much into what people write in a few paragraphs on the internet. And by the way most people in most sub cultures have an ideal of what they say they do and the reality is far different in actuality. Human beings are full of contradictions.... all human beings in groups do this! So it is all meanings on top of meanings... your interpretation of what people write when they are imperfectly trying to convey who they are.... you have had trouble communicating your ideas here... does this make you confused? Does it make your readers confused? Does it just mean that everyone is looking at the world a little differently?

I have a list a mile long of limits I have with 99.9% of humanity... I believe this is a good and healthy list. The closer that I get to my dom the less meaning those boundaries have. If I were looking again I would probably advertise myself as a masochist so that the submissive baggage could be dealt with at MY speed and at MY comfort level. Having been involved in D/s for several years I have learned a lot about myself, and one of those things is that I do not need to explain my limits to ANYONE unless I CHOOSE to. I just wouldn't do it... and if that makes me unsubmissive I just do not give a flying fuck because my self esteem does not hinge on other people's perception of me or my labels. There are some things in this world we have no control over, and one of them is what other people think about us.



SlyStone -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 10:50:44 AM)


"I think the entire trouble here is that you are reading too much into what people write in a few paragraphs on the internet."


If you reread my last post you will see that I am not talking about what people write on the internet, or what is contained in their profiles, I am talking about limitations that exist within  a person that may or may not be in direct conflict with the title/label they chose.



There are some things in this world we have no control over, and one of them is what other people think about us.  


I have to disagree with you here.

While it is true that we cannot, as a rule, completely control what others think of us, there have been political and religious movements based on that very concept, In fact I would argue that our current presidential candidates do not utter a word in public that has not been vetted  as to how it will get an undecided voter to lean his way. That is a form of control and it would be impossible without the title and label the candidates carry with them to start with.

Everybody likes to say that they don't give a shit what people think of them, and some dont, but the vast majority of people spend a great deal of time creating a favorable image and attempting to project that image to the outside world. It may not always work and in the end
we are who we are, but throughout history many people have been very successful fooling lots of people, and in fact controlling how they are perceived.  

Show me a kid who would chose a cheap target sweatshirt over a fancy labeled one that look exactly the same. Do you pass by the generic section  at the grocery store in favor of the labels you see on television that you assume must be superior?  Maybe not you, by many do. And perhaps the advertised products are in fact better, but no matter how you look at it, We  are being controlled by
advertising and labels and titles every day of our life. We respect the policeman based on his title but he may in fact be evil incarnate, but to get to that truth we have to see past the label. Juries have been controlled by labels and titles and celebrity, that is for sure.

We want to be liked and we want to be understood, and we want others to perceive us as we perceive ourselves. It is the natural human condition, I think.




juliaoceania -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 11:32:08 AM)

quote:

Everybody likes to say that they don't give a shit what people think of them, and some dont, but the vast majority of people spend a great deal of time creating a favorable image and attempting to project that image to the outside world. It may not always work and in the end
we are who we are, but throughout history many people have been very successful fooling lots of people, and in fact controlling how they are perceived.


I did not say I did not care what people think of me, I said I do not care if others perceive me as being "submissive". For one there is my Daddy who finds me to be plenty submissive... so other people and their thoughts on my submissive nature really do not matter to me. My self esteem does not hinge on what other people think of me. Now my income may hinge on it, my living situation may hinge on it, so of course I care about other people's perceptions of me... but my self esteem does not hinge on other people's opinions... including my Daddy's opinion of me. I will feel good about me no matter what. And your example of the campaign and people's perceptions actually drive home the fact that we have a limited sphere of influence over how other people choose to think about us. McCain, for example, does not want to be perceived as a doddering old fool... unfortunately no matter how hard he tries to change that perception, he only makes it worse.

As to the rest of my post... you skipped what I found to be the more crucial aspects of what I was trying to communicate... which is that communication is imperfect and we can only interpret what other people mean by what they label themselves. Our interpretations of what they really mean are not exact. I find our interchange on this board to be a prime example of this problem of communicating ideals and values between individuals... mixed meanings... different labels for the same concept..... using symbols in different ways. I would prefer to think that there is a communication problem, or that there was a differing value system, then to think that someone was "confused" or "emotionally troubled"... if they are happy and do not feel confused about what they want or desire it seems the confusion would be on the part of the person whom they are communicating with, not their own.



akisha -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 11:37:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CookieSlave

<snip>   Me, I kinda loosely figure that anyone identified as: Master/Mistress, Sir/Ma'am, Dom/Domme are probably going to be the take-charge kinda folks.  The folks referred to as slave, girl/boy, sub - these are going to be the taken-charge-of folks.


I really don't agree with this statement. I know lots of submissives, myself included, that are very take-charge, get things done kind of people. It just depends on under what circumstances.

At work that is me to a "T", at home once I'm given a task i take charge of what needs to be done and I get it done effecently and as quickly as possible.

You'll find quite a few submissives that are that way I would think,



lateralist1 -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 12:25:18 PM)

All I can say is that it takes time to get past the first impressions of someone.
What anyone says on a profile is just a glimpse of the person.
It took me years to realise that often what I was saying about myself didn't really matter to the person I was talking to. They just didn't care who I was only what I would agree to do to them. Or allow them to do for me. I became very paranoid. I became very specific about my needs because I was sick of pursuing people who had a very different idea of what BDSM was all about. Now I just see a profile as an introduction to a person. What happens after is down to the two or more people involved.
I wish more people would contribute on the boards because it is a good way to get to know people. I think I know some people who contribute on here better than I know my own family and yet I have never even talked to them.
In the end the relationship, as defined by the two or more people involved, is the only thing that matters. Labels can be misintepreted. But lets face it it's fun debating them.



SailingBum -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 2:57:41 PM)

I can't believe all the nonsense I'm reading here. Labels are useful to define others and ourselves. To some I'm a dad to others a sailor, brother sister blah blah you get the idea.  much ado about nothing.

BadOne



SlyStone -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 4:52:46 PM)


Over two days posting to this thread:


"Must be a full moon.  The ranting posts tonight are "out there"

"I can't believe all the nonsense I'm reading here."

"blah blah you get the idea.  much ado about nothing."






"To some I'm a dad to others a sailor, brother sister blah blah you get the idea"


Actually no, but I admire your diversity.


In any case, thanks for clearing it all up for us Gilligan, your input has been invaluable.



RedMagic1 -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 5:03:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone
In any case, thanks for clearing it all up for us Gilligan, your input has been invaluable.

A good example of using labels to minimize others rather than to build a relationship.  This tendency of yours comes out in several ways in your posts.  It is why people who actually do the real-life thing successfully are saying that you are thinking about this wrong.

SailingBum was correct, and clear.  If you choose to find no value in his words, that's on you, not him.



CookieSlave -> RE: You Call Yourself a What? (10/1/2008 6:36:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: akisha
I really don't agree with this statement. I know lots of submissives, myself included, that are very take-charge, get things done kind of people. It just depends on under what circumstances.


Hi akisha - don't get too wrapped up in the semantics of what I said in my last post, it's why I say "loosely" and I've got nothing set in stone. ;-)  If it helps, I can put it another way, as in there are the people who are "in control"(more or less) and the people who are "surrendering control"(more or less).   I understand your perspective, and I certainly don't disagree with that at all, I was just making a generalized statement within the context of the discussion. Hell, *I* am the same way.   :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
A good example of using labels to minimize others rather than to build a relationship.  This tendency of yours comes out in several ways in your posts.  It is why people who actually do the real-life thing successfully are saying that you are thinking about this wrong.

SailingBum was correct, and clear.  If you choose to find no value in his words, that's on you, not him.


Now that has got to be one of the smartest things I've seen in this thread. [;)]

-cs



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