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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 2:45:08 PM   
tweedydaddy


Posts: 673
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		If you are capable of confusing BDSM play with an abusive relationship, you are you in the wrong place. It's not a relevant question.

(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 3:11:03 PM   
SensibleSam


Posts: 77
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline 		I just a hour this posting has elicited a broad range of responses. First there are the usual indignant and illiterate responses and then there are some thoughtfull and informed postings.

Just to clarify: I am not advocating anything. I didn't intend to cover all classes and strains of BDSM - just mainstream hetrosexual Dom Male/Sub Female with physical contact. There are a lot of ads on this site and other similar sites that have women seeking a man to spank them. There are lots of ads from men attesting to their desire to be spanker. It's fair to say that this sort of thing is not seen on most vanilla dating sites.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about this but it seemed too elementary to require an explicit statement.

For my purposes I don't think it makes much sense to imagine that a "victim of domestic violence" desires being beaten up. There are undoubedly some women who do want this, but then they would hardly be victims. No, I am referring to the all too common phenomenon of the wife whose husband gets chewed out at work by his boss, gets drunk and then comes home and uses his wife as a punching bag. This kind of event can end up with the woman seriously hurt or even dead. In the vast majority of cases the woman is terrorized and terrified.

On the other hand there are the women - many of whom advertise on this site - who love being spanked, or caned or whipped. They seek it out and they are very happy afterward the physical interaction.

There is an ad on the radio that ends with the punchline, "all violence against women is wrong". That is obviously wrong.  That ad fails to distinguish beween consensual BDSM and domestic abuse. I believe that many of the vanilla public also confuse these two very different kinds of physical activity between the sexes. 

Sorry for being so long winded but I tire of being attacked for positions I didn't espouse.

My question was imply is there a correlation between BDSM and domestic abuse? If so what is the sign?

If the correlation were say positive 0.5 then that would mean that a BDSM Dom was more likely to engage in domestic violence. If it were say negative 0.5 then that would mean that BDSM Doms were less likely to commit domestic abuse acts. If the correlation were 0.0 it would mean that there is no relationship. That is to say knowing that someone is Dom would tell you nothing about his likelyhood to be a domestic abuse offender.

No one has any real data as I suspected would be the case. Of those who offered an opinion most seemed to think that a BDSM Dom was somewhat less likely to be a domestic abuse offender.

That seems reasonable to me.

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 3:26:49 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam
I just a hour this posting has elicited a broad range of responses. First there are the usual indignant and illiterate responses and then there are some thoughtfull and informed postings.

I'm  a professional scientist, and I remember some of your post history.  Your pattern is that of a troll who cloaks himself in pseudoscientific verbiage.  I consider that to be functional illiteracy, because it is the use of words with no comprehension of their meanings.

For example: far and away the most prevalent BDSM image in mainstream American culture is that of a leather-clad dominatrix.  Consider the V-chip television commercial, the most-watched CSI episodes, etc.  In fact, the burden of proof would be on you to provide a single example of a mainstream-culture BDSM icon that is not a femdom.  There is no chance in hell that vanillas primarily associate BDSM with a male wifebeater.  Even the new Jessica Alba tape-bondage get-out-the-vote ad is more often described as "steamy" or "kinky," not as related to S&M.  And even if -- big if -- I grant you that as a non-femdom example, it's nowhere close to a male wifebeater.

Everyone reading this thread, please decide if you're going to feed the troll.


_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 3:31:09 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

There is an ad on the radio that ends with the punchline, "all violence against women is wrong". That is obviously wrong.  That ad fails to distinguish beween consensual BDSM and domestic abuse.


it also leaves out the boxing ring, you know, the "sport" where consensual violence is condoned, regardless of gender.
 
quote:

No one has any real data as I suspected would be the case.


this slave gave you real data, albeit limited to her personal, very limited experiences, dealing with one spousal abuser and one dominant, but it was "real" nonetheless.
 
extrapolate to your hearts content...

 
 

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/6/2008 3:35:16 PM >

(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 3:44:56 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam
I believe most members of the general public and all of the media equate spousal abuse (wife beating) with BDSM.


I don't get that feeling from the general public at all.

(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 3:45:37 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam
Yes. That's what I said. I think they are different. My point was that the public doesn't.


OK, so I'm not "the public".  I'm just one member of same.  But I do not self-identify as a BDSMer nor do I engage in any kind of BD or SM activities.  I'm a "regular joe" vanilla guy.  A year ago, I was even more pristine than I am now.  Two years ago I had absolutely no exposure whatsoever to BDSM.  Even so... it never occurred to me to think of what I did know as "abusive".  I thought of it as wierd and I wondered whether submissives were weak individuals.  But I did not think of it as abusive.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 3:51:24 PM   
Divyacheri


Posts: 12
Joined: 9/14/2008
Status: offline 		Yes I do believe there is a correlation between DV and BDSM. There are many abusive and controlling assholes who go into BDSM for the wrong reasons if that wasn't the case the Leatherworld would not have information about DV on their many many sites.

Secondly, BDSM is so very different that DV. DV is about power, control, and entitlement. While BDSM has rules that guide a person into what fits them.

I often read many subs who write for advice about so called D/s situations which are in your face ABUSIVE. My concern is that subs and Dominants using D/s as a way to keep abusing and I am afraid there are not protocols for that.


(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 4:12:20 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Divyacheri

Yes I do believe there is a correlation between DV and BDSM. There are many abusive and controlling assholes who go into BDSM for the wrong reasons if that wasn't the case the Leatherworld would not have information about DV on their many many sites.

Secondly, BDSM is so very different that DV. DV is about power, control, and entitlement. While BDSM has rules that guide a person into what fits them.

I often read many subs who write for advice about so called D/s situations which are in your face ABUSIVE. My concern is that subs and Dominants using D/s as a way to keep abusing and I am afraid there are not protocols for that.




You make a couple of really astute points.

I don't really have anything to add, but I think what you wrote is a good case in point with regards to where the OP was going with all of this.

_____________________________

marie.


I give good agita.









(in reply to Divyacheri)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 5:05:30 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam

My question was imply is there a correlation between BDSM and domestic abuse? If so what is the sign?


I'm not aware of any studies on the topic, but if there are any relevant statistics I would bet that you could find them from Trevor Jacques who has conducted the most significant statistical sampling of BDSM adherents that I'm aware of.
 
As a side note... most state's spousal abuse laws do not distinguish between consensual BDSM and non-consensual spousal abuse.  Consequently, much of WIITWD is illegal (particularly impact play, bondage, etc) by those standards.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 6:32:37 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
Joined: 3/2/2007
From: Little Rock, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Ah , so you are talking about subconsciously - not literally.  And for that , i will agree with you.   Seen my share of that dynamic in the ER.

I agree with Erin and I AM speaking for years of personal experience.  I consented to whatever abuse he dished out and not just "subconsciously" either.  I consented by putting up with it and staying.  I consented by passing up opportunities to leave it and go back to my family as they were very supportive.  I consented.  Period.  I know I'm not the only woman in the world who has...............luci

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(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 7:31:53 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Ah , so you are talking about subconsciously - not literally.  And for that , i will agree with you.   Seen my share of that dynamic in the ER.

I agree with Erin and I AM speaking for years of personal experience.  I consented to whatever abuse he dished out and not just "subconsciously" either.  I consented by putting up with it and staying.  I consented by passing up opportunities to leave it and go back to my family as they were very supportive.  I consented.  Period.  I know I'm not the only woman in the world who has...............luci


luci, I say this without the slightest bit of sarcasm... your level of personal responsibility and self-empowerment is remarkably refreshing and appealing.  My level of respect for you could not be greater. 
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 8:03:33 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Ah , so you are talking about subconsciously - not literally.  And for that , i will agree with you.   Seen my share of that dynamic in the ER.

I agree with Erin and I AM speaking for years of personal experience.  I consented to whatever abuse he dished out and not just "subconsciously" either.  I consented by putting up with it and staying.  I consented by passing up opportunities to leave it and go back to my family as they were very supportive.  I consented.  Period.  I know I'm not the only woman in the world who has...............luci


Sorry it took so long to get back to this but....yes luci, what I meant was actually along the lines of what you wrote. There are a multitude of reasons why women stay in abusive situations...but the bottom line is that by staying, they ARE consenting. Been there and done it myself once too. Many can never see or understand that though.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to slaveluci)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 8:13:45 PM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline 		I don't have a study for you and I don't think you will find one. Society isn't ready to look that closely at WIITWD.
To me, the definition of consent, when you are trying to sort out the difference between BDSM relationships that include physical play (so many here keep pointing out that not all do), and physically abusive relationships, is something like this:
Yes, with very few exceptions (there are women out there being out and out coerced to stay) the vast majority of victims are indeed 'voting with their feet' when they consent to stay. So how am I different from them?
I'm happy. If you ask a woman, 'would you be happier in your relationship without the entire element that includes the beatings?"
Those who are consentual will say No, I don't want the beatings to stop, morale was just begining to improve
And those being abused will say, 'Of course I'd be happier if he wasn't beating me! What kind of stupid question is that!'

Yes, some would have complex versions of those answers. Some women might be in consentual relationships where they agree to tolerate beating, although they don't actually like being beaten, but they like the D/s, or some other aspect. So, they might say, 'well, if he could still Master me, if He would be just as happy with me serving him in other ways, I suppose i would like it if i didn't have to get beaten, ....', but the answer points out the clear consent involved.
A woman in an abusive relationship might say, 'Hell, that's the only time he pays attention to me.' again, the answer makes clear the dynamics of the relationship.
However, if you used my model in an actual study, you could simply throw out those types of answers as too abigous.



_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 8:22:05 PM   
natasha66


Posts: 321
Joined: 10/14/2006
From: NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

I'm sorry, this is a trigger topic for me and I'm trying to be as objective as I can without ranting or going off on a tangent.  It is not my intention to derail this op but there was one thing I felt deserved a bit of clarification.

Abuse takes many forms, not all of it physical.  Some abuse takes the form of deliberate and conscious undermining of another's sense of 'self.  It troubles me, when abuse is generalized under a flag of physical violence, and described as being 'out of control' when I have seen so many instances of abuse that was calculated. 


Agreed.  Emotional abuse can leave just as many scars, just not visible ones.

_____________________________

"If you bother me again I shall visit you in the small hours of the night and put a bat up your nightdress".
~Basil Fawlty

Collared June 4th, 2008
Love is giving him the power to destroy you, but trusting him not to.



(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 10:40:13 PM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		I am sure that domestic violence can and does factor into bdsm scenarios but obviously, public misperception aside, we're talking apples and llamas. 
I worked for 5 years running domestic violence groups with court-ordered male offenders. 
Most of those men couldn't be further from Dominant.  Brutal, yes.  Dominant, hell no.
The program I worked for used a "Cycle of Abuse" model to map out what the evolution of the abuse was: Honeymoon Stage, Tension Stage, Explosion Stage.  Between each, there was a pivot-point,  Between Honeymoon and Tension was "He's fed up", between Tension and Explosion was "He thinks that she's fed up", and between Explosion and Returning to the Honeymoon Stage was a "Cool Down".  That doesn't track to anything that even remotely looks like a healthy D/s relationship to me.  Oh, and another thing that stood out to/for me was that a lot of the abusers were downright wusses (Yes, very clinical term) who only gorked out in the privacy of their own home against those who could not defend themselves.  Antithesis of Dominant, imo.  Oh, and don't even get me started on the women.  Grrrr, too many kids sacrificed to the sick abuse dynamic; future generations poisoned.  I preferred working with the abusers because I at least had the possibility of holding them accountable if they were non-compliant with the court-orders that landed them there. 
Spousal abuse is so very NOT like D/s in any healthy parlance. 
  Davan

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/6/2008 10:55:20 PM   
MAMandSlave


Posts: 110
Joined: 8/15/2008
Status: offline 		Having studied domestic violence, and having a history of domestic violence counseling, the information that I know of states that domestic violence is generalized across communities. There isn't really a factor, race, sexual orientation, kink, that increases or decrease the incident of DV.
All communities and groups have it, whether it is acknowledged or not, it is a shame it exists.

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 12:04:04 AM   
tsatske


Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline
quote:

I am sure that domestic violence can and does factor into bdsm scenarios but obviously, public misperception aside, we're talking apples and llamas.  I worked for 5 years running domestic violence groups with court-ordered male offenders. 


But let's talk about how far off that public perception is. In every city I have lived in, I have tried to volenteer for the Domestic Abuse hotline. I tell them I am a submissive active in the lifestyle. Granted, I could manage to volenteer if I did not tell them that, but that would miss the point.
This is what I tell them - I want to take calls from submissive women. Cause, here are a couple of real truths: If you are calling an abuse hotline to figure out if you are being abused, there is a good chance the answer is yes.
If you could figure that out on your own, the world would not need abuse hotlines.
when you try to talk to the average abuse hotline worker, she will hold the line 'Does he hit you? well, then, you're being abused, get out!'
But the sub knows this is not true - most of her friends get hit, and they are happy. It isn't the hitting - or maybe just not all the hitting, depending on her situation - that she is unhappy with it.
She needs the same thing a vanilla woman needs - a safe place to talk it out and figure out for herself what 'abuse' means, in her life, so that she can keep herself safe.
And when you do the 'Are you being hit? That's abuse - get out' schtick, well, then she can't get that from you.
But she can get it from me. I can just listen, let her figure out what abuse is, because I get hit, and I like it, I know that is not the abuse she means.
And they never call back. Because, to them, being hit = abuse. That is the public perception. Does he hit you? You and I know that life is not that simple - John and Jane Doe do not know.

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to DavanKael)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 1:11:55 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam
Just to clarify: I am not advocating anything. I didn't intend to cover all classes and strains of BDSM - just mainstream hetrosexual Dom Male/Sub Female with physical contact. There are a lot of ads on this site and other similar sites that have women seeking a man to spank them. There are lots of ads from men attesting to their desire to be spanker. It's fair to say that this sort of thing is not seen on most vanilla dating sites.


quote:

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about this but it seemed too elementary to require an explicit statement.


quote:

For my purposes I don't think it makes much sense to imagine that a "victim of domestic violence" desires being beaten up


For your purposes, in other words, your bias and the way you want to think and portray something, is not correct.  Your whole premise is flawed and shows a lack of understanding of abuse. So in other words, you are trolling for what you want to hear, rather than what is correct.
 
quote:

 
There are undoubedly some women who do want this, but then they would hardly be victims.


Again, wrong.

quote:

 No, I am referring to the all too common phenomenon of the wife whose husband gets chewed out at work by his boss, gets drunk and then comes home and uses his wife as a punching bag. This kind of event can end up with the woman seriously hurt or even dead. In the vast majority of cases the woman is terrorized and terrified.


So, you aren't talking about abuse, but a specific incident or example.

quote:

On the other hand there are the women - many of whom advertise on this site - who love being spanked, or caned or whipped. They seek it out and they are very happy afterward the physical interaction.


Not all.  Submission isn't always about what you want to do.

quote:

There is an ad on the radio that ends with the punchline, "all violence against women is wrong". That is obviously wrong.  That ad fails to distinguish beween consensual BDSM and domestic abuse. I believe that many of the vanilla public also confuse these two very different kinds of physical activity between the sexes. 


And what about men?  or anything/one?  Have you asked the public or making generalisations?

quote:

Sorry for being so long winded but I tire of being attacked for positions I didn't espouse.


You are being debated not attacked.  Attack is abuse.  Oh - one moment - no abuse is only physical isn't it.  And against women.  And 'nonconsensual'.  But wait, by writing this you are consenting to opening your words to the public for .... oh goodness this is getting confusing.

quote:

My question was imply is there a correlation between BDSM and domestic abuse? If so what is the sign?


You will not get an correct answer because you are not talking about abuse, but about a scenario.

quote:

If the correlation were say positive 0.5 then that would mean that a BDSM Dom was more likely to engage in domestic violence. If it were say negative 0.5 then that would mean that BDSM Doms were less likely to commit domestic abuse acts. If the correlation were 0.0 it would mean that there is no relationship. That is to say knowing that someone is Dom would tell you nothing about his likelyhood to be a domestic abuse offender.


Total blahblah.

quote:

No one has any real data as I suspected would be the case.


Then why ask?
quote:

Of those who offered an opinion most seemed to think that a BDSM Dom was somewhat less likely to be a domestic abuse offender.
That seems reasonable to me.

You see what you want to see and get what you wanted.  But this has not been a discussion about abuse, just conjecture on a scenario.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 4:31:40 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MAMandSlave

Having studied domestic violence, and having a history of domestic violence counseling, the information that I know of states that domestic violence is generalized across communities. There isn't really a factor, race, sexual orientation, kink, that increases or decrease the incident of DV.
All communities and groups have it, whether it is acknowledged or not, it is a shame it exists.


I may be wrong and hope that you'll correct me if that's the case, but isn't there a single factor that will overwhelmingly increase the odds of abuse?  That being, the victims of childhood abuse go on to become abusers themselves.  I have often heard professionals describe abuse as "generational" for this reason.
 
John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to MAMandSlave)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 4:55:44 AM   
HalloweenWhite


Posts: 1028
Joined: 6/20/2005
Status: offline 		The answer to your question is simply no, someone who engages in BDSM is not more or less likely to engage in spousal abuse, because Any Dominant (of either gender) worth their salt knows the difference, that difference being consent; that is, BDSM-consent, Spousal abuse-no consent.

Some may use it as an excuse to be abusive but it's just an excuse and therefore definately not BDSM because Those who know the rules (S.S.C/R.A.C.K) respect the rules.

As for the public not knowing the difference, there's not much Y/you can do about that because unless they choose to educate themselves about BDSM they'll keep making assumptions.

(in reply to SensibleSam)
Profile   Post #: 40
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