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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 4:56:31 AM   
SrchngCpl73112


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I was in a very emotionally and sometimes physically abusive relationship for 14 yrs.  I stayed in it.  Why, sometimes i ask that question of myself.  When you get emotionally beat down you feel trapped.  You feel there isnt anythign out in the real world for you.  You cant make enough money to take care of you and your kids, there is no way you are ever going to find someone who will love you.  For me, since getting out of the relationship and realizing who and what i am and finding myself, i know alot of it was my submissiveness trying to find something.  I didnt realize that at the time, but I am realizing that I have always been submissive and I was looking for something subconsciously to fill that submissive need in myself.  He was definitely not a Dom.  I agree with the person that said probably most abusers are not Doms.  Now that i have found what i have been searching for and a real Dom i see so many things that lead me to that abusive relationship.  We dont practice BD or SM just live D/s but i dont think there is really a corrolation at all with DV and BDSM.  True, there may be some men who try to get into the lifestyle because they think they can abuse and it be ok but hopefully those people are weeded out pretty quickly.   I would hope so anyway but im sure there are some women (and men) who fall prey to it at times. 
I hate that i stayed because of my kids.  I have taken full responsibility for what i put them thru.  I know i should have never stayed in that relationship for so many years.  I believe it ended up being more my fault than my ex-husbands.  This is the way he is.  I knew it pretty quickly into the relationship and i still stayed.  My own stupidity and insecurities and it was the kids that really paid the price.  There is no amount of apologizing i can do to them that will make up for it but believe me i have apologized and i have to hope that they wont repeat the patterns that they grew up with.

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 5:07:24 AM   
wandersalone


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Agreeing with this and adding my experience people who have told me they overtly consented to DV..most often in response to threats to harm the UM's, kick the dog ie, hit me instead of them etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveluci

I agree with Erin and I AM speaking for years of personal experience.  I consented to whatever abuse he dished out and not just "subconsciously" either.  I consented by putting up with it and staying.  I consented by passing up opportunities to leave it and go back to my family as they were very supportive.  I consented.  Period.  I know I'm not the only woman in the world who has...............luci


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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 8:00:48 AM   
WhiplashSmile2


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Survey results can always be manipulated and skewed in so many ways that it's not funny.   Some surveys are biased from the start with the Questions that are being asked.   Creating a good survey is actually a challenge that many people fail at, because they are too busy beating down or trying to prove thier own agenda.

In depth studies tend to be better in terms of the results produced.  A survey is just one small tool and alone it does not prove or disprove anything.   Demographics, the sampling source and many other things can bias it.   There are certain number of variables involved that if overlooked and not addressed, lead to a misrepresentation of the truth. 

Some personal thoughts, I myself do not base my D/s on physical actions.  If I have to pick up a whip or flogger or something to D/s somebody, there is a problem.  In regards to S&M, sure it's great to play a little rough.  It simply fillfulls two peoples mutual kinks and desires.  Makes for a better relationship and brighter day.

Not everybody who is into BDSM is into S&M, some people enjoy bondage and D/s relationships.  Everybody is not into evil spanking devices and painful things. 

You should be targeting your lines of thinking more specific to those who are into S&M play and practices and not on BDSM in general.   The more specific and focused you are in your thinking, the more clarity will come to you.


(in reply to SensibleSam)
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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 9:33:37 AM   
tsatske


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Hallow, The problem with emphasizing the difference is it leads to the 'Real Scotsman Fallacy'
If there is not appropriate consent, it is not BDSM, therefore, abuse does not happen in BDSM.
It is true that without appropriate consent, it is not BDSM, however, abuse does happen in this lifestyle.
Yes, you can say things like, 'I am sure some people use BDSM as an excuse to abuse but that's not BDSM', but that is like the Catholic church saying, "I am sure that some pedophiles become priests in order to have access to children, but in that case they are not real priests.' True enough, but both the priest and the Dom looked real enough to the person who got trapped in their web, so that comment is not helpful.
The truth is, until the APA becomes more willing to look at BDSM as a healthy alternative lifestyle, not a diagnoses, you will not see this kind of study, and, therefore, you really do not know for sure that 'Being in BDSM does not increase or decrease the likelihood of Domestic Violence.' That is a logical assumption, but there is a big difference between a logical assumption and empirical evidence. The OP was asking if there were any empirical data.

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 9:53:02 AM   
masterforRT


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I think he has asked a fair question, and the numerous catty responses (from the usual suspects)  I see here add NOTHING to the discussion.

BDSM is a consensual thing; abuse is not. BDSM is power exchange; abuse is taking power without permission. BDSM is usually a planned thing, while abuse is usually the spontaneous result of temper or rage. I think what you are trying to ask is whether Doms who beat their subs in acts of BDSM are less likely to abuse/be abusers. I don't believe so. Though I suppose BDSM could be used as a way to dissipate aggression and temper, that is NOT a good reason to do it! Abuse is a result of temper or rage, and having a bad temper is not something limited to those who do not practice BDSM.
Some people who practice BDSM and are also abusers might believe that their victims might be less likely to notify authorities and/or seek help because they are *used* to welts and bruises (from the BDSM activivities), but I would hope this would not be the case! Abuse is just that: ABUSE and needs to be seen as and dealt with as such.

< Message edited by masterforRT -- 10/7/2008 10:39:48 AM >

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 10:01:21 AM   
tsatske


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Most pamplets, questionaires, ect, you see, along the lines of 'are you an abused woman?', have a list of questions, and basicly say, 'if you say yes to any of these, you are being abused - get out, get out now!'
1. does he hit you? 2. does he call you derogatory names? blah, blah, blah... you can see that they don't apply to us.
But, ONCE, i saw a VERY DIFFERENT quiz. I was in college, it was in my text book. (i didn't go to college till my kiddos were college age). It had the nearly same bunch of questions, but asked that you rank every one from 0 (never ever) to 5 (all the freakin time).
It had a list of expected results - the score the average abused woman got, average woman happy in her relationship and not being abused got, ect.
So, i took the test. This is what I did. I answered every question as thoughtfully as I could, unless it involved hitting, and then I just put a 5. (because I was experimenting, and becuase, compared to vanilla woman, of course I get hit all the freakin time. Or at least, when I'm lucky...)
I scored significantly better than the average American woman in a happy, non-abusive relationship. That tells you something, possibly only about my own relatinships, but, still.

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 10:03:26 AM   
MAMandSlave


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

quote:

ORIGINAL: MAMandSlave

Having studied domestic violence, and having a history of domestic violence counseling, the information that I know of states that domestic violence is generalized across communities. There isn't really a factor, race, sexual orientation, kink, that increases or decrease the incident of DV.
All communities and groups have it, whether it is acknowledged or not, it is a shame it exists.



I may be wrong and hope that you'll correct me if that's the case, but isn't there a single factor that will overwhelmingly increase the odds of abuse?  That being, the victims of childhood abuse go on to become abusers themselves.  I have often heard professionals describe abuse as "generational" for this reason.
 
John


There is a generational component to DV, however it does not factor in to varied segments of society. If you dont see DV in one segment of society, it usually just means its hidden better. The familial patterns of abuse are genralized across  all groups, just as DV is.

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 11:03:18 AM   
SensibleSam


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Thanks to those of you who expressed an informed opinion. I noted that several people were or had been domestic abuse counsellors. Their testimony was particularly welcome. I too have had some professional experience with counseling female victims of domestic abuse. That was a long time ago.

I have been accused of being a troll. I'm not completely sure what is meant by that. I was sincerely interested in the reponses to this question. It bears on my self perception. I wouldn't like to think of myself as a despicable wife beater. I have contempt for such people. I hadn't thought about this for some time but when O.J. Simpson returned to the news these sort of questions arose again.

Some real data from some real study would be welcomed if only for polite debate in social situations or commentary on non-BDSM blogs. I once made a rather innocuous comment about BDSM on a fairly high minded political blog. I was shocked at the ignorance of the responders. These otherwise intelligent and informed people displayed a wide variety of misconceptions including confusing BDSM with spousal abuse. Most commenters on that blog habitually include references and study citations with their posted comments. So for example a comment on some current controversy like No Child Left Behind policy will typically include links to formal studies of results along with the poster's personal opinion. However in BDSM matters there are very seldom any such links. This leads to BDSM posters often citing themselves as an authority. That may be accepted on this - a BDSM message board - but on a non-BDSM message board or blog it carries little weight.

I'm sorry I sound psuedo-scientific to the poster who described himself as a scientist. I worked in market research for a while. I taught statistics and research design for about five years at the graduate and under-graduate level. Some of that background remains in my ordinary discourse but I can assure you that I have forgotten almost all of what I once knew.  It's hard to be clear without sounding pompous. I probably try to be too formal so as to avoid misunderstanding.

    

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 11:42:59 AM   
kristileigh


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spousal or partner abuse is two totally different things all together.
i enjoy the BDSM spankings from Master and when He calls me a slut it is in a way different context than when i was being beat and verbally humiliated at the hands of my abuser. Love and respect make a world of difference.

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 11:58:43 AM   
leadership527


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam
It bears on my self perception. I wouldn't like to think of myself as a despicable wife beater.


Really?  How exactly does it bear on your self perception.  At the end of the day, what you do is either good for your wife or not.  It either enriches her life or it dosn't.  It enables her growth as an indivual or squelches it.  That is the only reality that matters.  Let's suppose that the study turned up the fact that every single other dominant in the entire world was, in fact, an abusive SOB.  How does that bear at all on what you do with your wife?

~Jeff

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 2:34:28 PM   
Rover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MAMandSlave

There is a generational component to DV, however it does not factor in to varied segments of society. If you dont see DV in one segment of society, it usually just means its hidden better. The familial patterns of abuse are genralized across  all groups, just as DV is.


Understood.  I was making no comment upon abuse as it relates to differing groups.  Only adding that there is a factor that increases one's predisposition to become both an abuser, and a victim (female children often learn to seek out abusive relationships if they have grown up in an abusive environment).  Even if that factor is unrelated to specific groups.
 
John

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 5:29:07 PM   
Paulnz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam


There are many difference between a BDSM beating and a wife abuse beating. First of all the woman (submissive) in a BDSM beating consents to it and enjoys it while the victim of spousal abuse doesn't. In BDSM the woman often ends up with welts on her bottom whereas in abuse she has often been punched in the face.


I have come across two women where the lines are somewhat more blurred.

The first told me that her husband used to beat her if she didn't have his meal ready when he decided to come home from the pub. We're not talking about a slap here, but a bashing. She said that she looked forward to it and became excited at the anticipation of a possible beating. The second had much the same story, though the beating could be over anything in her case. Both ended the relationships, not because of the level of violence, but because their husbands lost control. They were both looking for men who could provide the same level of violence, but remain in control.


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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 7:40:51 PM   
tsatske


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There are actually comparitively few sure differences. There are several possible differences, but most of those are not clear lines.
If a man comes home drunk or mad, throws his wife down on the bed and beats her with his belt or a coat hanger while she is screaming 'NO, no, no!' - is it not abuse because he applied it to her bottom and not her face?

Is it abuse when Master slaps my face? (fucking HAWT! and, in our dynamic, done by him when he is VERY pleased with his slut, overall, - or, more softly, when he wants her to center and sub out quick. But the real, serious, ring my bells slap is when He is pleased with her.)

As Paul pointed out, the lines can blur even where you think they are solid. I would say those two women were still abused, because their hubby's thought they were abusing them and meant to abuse them - that is probably why it escalated, he got angry over his sensing that she was not terrified, but might be enjoying it.

I have often speculated that many (not all) abused women are subs who don't know it. They like the manly man, the like the rough stuff, they like being controled, they feel safe, they feel loved, they like being expected to serve - and they don't know where else to get it. and the romance of the appology, of course. This is not a description of every abused woman, mind you, i just suspect that it is a certain portion.

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 11:38:34 PM   
Paulnz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske
As Paul pointed out, the lines can blur even where you think they are solid. I would say those two women were still abused, because their hubby's thought they were abusing them and meant to abuse them - that is probably why it escalated, he got angry over his sensing that she was not terrified, but might be enjoying it.


Definitely they were abused, but I think the point I was making was that not all aspects of the violence they experienced was unwelcome or unenjoyable.


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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/7/2008 11:45:32 PM   
mons


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the different is a dom will beat for p;easure of himself and slave or submissive a wife beat will throw the owman out side of a window and he means to throw her through it a dome slaps for pleasure a wife beat punches to knock out teeth and blacken eyes this is the different

mons ( a woman i knew as a chikl he broke her arms legs and black her eye shut i was so scare of him he beat and she was to  scare to leave there was blood all over the walls and i saw this at age 6 that is a wife beater a hater oe his mother and of all women )i was beaten myself and raped many times by a man who out wiegh me by 100 lb i got away

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/9/2008 2:54:14 PM   
tactileartist


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My 2 cents' worth to the basic topic - summed up as "what differentiates BDSM activities from domestic violence?"

BDSM activities are (at least SUPPOSED to be!) negotiated out by all parties involved as to what is and is not acceptable, which limits can be pushed and which ones cannot, when an activity is okay and when it's not, and also how MUCH of an activity is acceptable... or not.  BDSM lifestyles of varying sorts are (usually - I'm painting with a broad brush here) lifestyles where the expectations of the relationships are made more explicit than in vanilla ones, and a mutually gratifying "contract" - written or unwritten - is agreed upon by the people in that relationship... usually in ADVANCE.

Domestic Violence (be it physical, verbal, emotional, etc.) is about control.  The abuser is controlling the victim.  The method they use to control is relatively unimportant for the purposes of this discussion.  It's about "I told you not to do that!" and "Where were you and who were you with? What were you doing? Why are you 15 minutes late, it doesn't take that long to go shopping!" and "You'll never be ANYTHING without me", etc., ad nauseum.  Often the abuser is "only trying to take care of" the victim, or "looking out for" their best interests... again, etc., ad nauseum.  The abusers often state they were acting out of love and concern for their victim.

The victims often - I won't go so far as to say most of the time; I don't have the studies available to me anymore - have low self-esteem and feel that they "deserve" or "need" to be treated in these manners, or that these expressions of "jealousy" are "proof that [the abuser] loves me".  The victims are often women, the abusers are often men... but I feel that male victims of abuse (especially emotional abuse) are vastly under-reported for varying reasons.

I was a victim - and I choose to never again be a victim - and I've done a lot of extensive research into what "abuse" entails, since my abuser chose verbal and emotional abuse as his method of control rather than physical, which (for me) made it MUCH more difficult to see, and then to admit, that his behavior was really abuse.  I've known a number of other victimes of several methods of abuse.  We consented implicitly by tolerating the behavior - by staying in our relationships, by not saying "No, this is not acceptable, I will not accept being treated in this manner", by not saying "fuck you, asshole - I'm leaving", and especially by saying things like "I'm sorry" and "You were right" when we knew we were not sorry, and that they were NOT right.


Now, about the subject of Doms being "less likely to be abusers" - bullshit.  Absolute bullshit.  The first reason it's bullshit is that any asshole can self-identify as a Dom; there is no test or certification to "qualify" to be a Dom.  Being a Dom means NOTHING outside of the very personal context of how s/he interacts with his/her partners.  Therefore - I call bullshit.  A Dom is, I would guess, about as likely to be an abuser as any other human being.  No more, no less.  Hell, for that matter, the same holds true for subs. As a corrollary example, I will merely point out that on the FBI's profiling statistics, one of the common things to look for when investigating a possible child molester is "Baptist minister" - for the simple reason that child molesters seek out positions where they are trusted with children, and NOT because Baptists are more likely to be child molesters.  An abuser who's looking for victims may very well seek out to be a "Dom" because he (or she) is looking at a... target rich environment. 

In closing - BDSM is (supposed to be) like any other type of relationship in that it nurtures, supports, cherishes, and enhances the lives of those involved.  Abuse destroys.  The explicit behaviors are NOT a good standard by which to determine whether something is abusive or not.

For further reading, I would suggest www.bullyoffline.org (a nonprofit site).  There's a great deal of very interesting reading there.

Hope that provides food for thought.

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/9/2008 3:15:48 PM   
SlayerZ


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Domestic Abuse = not consensual

BDSM = consensual

Can I break down a complex argument down to a few words, or what.

: p

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/9/2008 3:38:52 PM   
Divyacheri


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~FastReply~

Slayer I think the OP question was to ask if there was a correlation between BDSM and DV. We know that BDSM (at least I do) is consensual and DV is nonconsensual. But you have many (and I will say it again) controlling & abusive assholes who go into BDSM to play games with real submissive and slaves. Abusing them terribly and calling it D/s. They KNOW it is consensual therefore it adds to more of the confusion to a potential submissive and/or slave when suddenly the game changes and the ass whipping is REAL. How does one tell the difference now or even get out...when you're tied up and having the sh-t beat out of you and then told to kneel and thank your Master/Mistress? You have what we call in DV- CRAZYMAKING BEHAVIOR.

The real question is how to protect and educate those who are serious about the lifestyle to not fall for the assholes who are and were never serious about the lifestyle?

< Message edited by Divyacheri -- 10/9/2008 3:40:08 PM >

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/9/2008 4:39:16 PM   
bound4more


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SensibleSam

I believe most members of the general public and all of the media equate spousal abuse (wife beating) with BDSM. They seem very different to me but maybe I'm wrong. I would appreciate reading some authoritative research on this issue if there is any such. By that I mean a survey that shows something like: 14% of all husbands beat up their wives at one time or another to such an extent that the woman reports the beating to the police and/or is taken to a hospital emergency room. The study found that self proclaimed BDSM Dominants engaged in less (6%) wife beating.
 
Please notice that this is a fictious citation of a fictious survey. I only introduce this as an example of the form that an authoritative research study might take. I fear that there has never been such a study so all we are left with opinion and speculation. Well that's OK too.

Let me define terms - although you may correct me if you think I have miscast the issue.

A BDSM Dominant man is one who spanks, canes or whips a woman for pleasure. He is likely to also enjoy slapping her and any number of other practices that cause pain.

A wife beater is a man who on occassion beats up his wife or female companion usually while in a drunken rage.

There are many difference between a BDSM beating and a wife abuse beating. First of all the woman (submissive) in a BDSM beating consents to it and enjoys it while the victim of spousal abuse doesn't. In BDSM the woman often ends up with welts on her bottom whereas in abuse she has often been punched in the face.

So the question becomes: is a man who habitually brings pain to a woman more likely or less likely to engage in spousal abuse?  It could be that a BDSM Dom has become desensitized to striking a woman and is therefore more likely to escalate from and erotic beating to "beating up" the woman. Or it could be that BDSM men because they have experience with beating women are less likely to blow up and put her in the hospital. Or finally it could be that there is no connection whatsoever.


May I ask the reason for this question? I'm curious as to what is the point? It's presented in such a generic fashion that I find myself wondering why it's even important to you. Are you concerned about this happening within you? If so, I'd recommend professional help.

_____________________________

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RE: Spousal abuse versus BDSM - 10/22/2008 1:11:00 AM   
mons


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why does he need help he is expressing a point of view or are you guilty ?

mons

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