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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:05:58 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

"Can I be honest with you?" (damn - does that mean until now you've been lying to me?!?)

"Okay - Now I'm gonna be totally honest..." (SEE ABOVE and add; oh shit - this is the last conversation I'm going to have with this person!)

Whenever I hear terms like this.... I recall an incident at Work.... I was in a meeting with the Sr VP with a few others when he has asked a question right at the start.... the individual responded "To be honest...." well the VP cut him short and went on a big lecture of integrity... interestingly that individual never spoke again the entire meeting.

As Dr House says... "Everyone lies"... The sad truth to me is that that there is a tremendous truth to this. What is missing though is the Intent of the lies. This is not alot different than being brutually honest... what is the intent? To me the intent of the person is just as important as to what is actually being said.

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Post #: 41

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:06:09 AM

JewAndCelt

Posts: 110
Joined: 8/23/2008
From: Arkansas
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The difference between 'honesty' and 'brutal honesty' is simple.

Tact.

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Post #: 42

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:08:35 AM

WinsomeDefiance

Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
I really like this answer, and Leader's previous post. It seems to me, there is a great deal of wisdom in that approach.

actually my question was meant to make people think about the difference...why they use it...and why it is needed..and what both cause
that doesn't work always...lol

I get that, in fact the way you both posed your posts gave me pause for thought.

(in reply to JustDarkness)

Post #: 43

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:09:19 AM

JustDarkness

Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JewAndCelt

The difference between 'honesty' and 'brutal honesty' is simple.

Tact.

and intent as KofM so nicely said

(in reply to JewAndCelt)

Post #: 44

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:14:24 AM

softness

Posts: 2918
Joined: 8/1/2006
From: Leeds, UK
Status: offline

Honesty - tell the truth ... as kindly as possible.
Brutal honesty - removing the sugar coating (but only on request) but not adding an acid one

I am always honest with my friends, I try to be honest with everyone when they ask me something even if that reveals that I am a world class numpty.
"Miss? ... how do you spell *insert word here* ...?" blank look "I don't know sweetheart, go look in the dictionary" "But you're an English teacher - you should be able to spell it" ... "... I know, but I can't ... " .... Ever tried showing a teenager weakness? It's like dipping a bloody limb in shark infested water and shouting .. "Here sharky sharky sharky!"

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Post #: 45

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:30:45 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

To me the intent of the person is just as important as to what is actually being said.

"Good intent" is never good and rarely generates the result intend-ed.

Intent, good or bad, is a tremendous opportunity for the rationalization of avoiding reality. If, as in the example you chose, the target was quieted, it speaks to my point - he lacked the confidence in his position to do so. As the facilitator of that meeting, I could have chosen to believe that was the case, or he did lack integrity and either doubted his position or he commonly misrepresented himself to placate the targeted audience.

Accepting "everyone lies" is no way to further a relationship regardless if that relationship is casual, business, or intimate. Rationalizing lies to facilitate an ongoing friendship speaks to the inherent fundamental weakness of that friendship. I'd agree it is becoming an acceptable principle, but like many things - I prefer not to participate when it comes to matters of friendship, or business for that matter. People need to appreciate that there are consequences for actions, and consequences for lies. An "everyone lies" philosophy would be accepting defeat and never allow for anyone to be considered a 'friend'. "Everyone lies" means you can't trust anyone. Trust extends much further than providing feedback that you want to hear. A friend doesn't need modifiers to honesty.

Beyond its use as slang or a 'figure of speech', modifying honesty defeats its usage. Honesty is or isn't. Works the same way with trust. "Intent", especially 'good intent' should not get in the way. Otherwise, the focus of your intent can reasonably assume that every future time you are in agreement you are also not "brutally honest". Of course the short version of that is that you lied.

The question becomes what is more important to a relationship; a partner who commits to 'honesty' with any modifier, or a lie - rationalized by "intent"?

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 46

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:34:27 AM

marieToo

Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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There's truth (which can be backed up factually), then there's honesty. I think the type of honesty you are speaking of is when we give a person our "honest" opinion, which to me, isn't necessarily the same thing as being "truthful".

I don't know why I felt the need to differentiate, but having said that, I've often found that people who claim to be "brutally honest" are really just looking for an acceptable way to be hurtful and insulting.

There have been times when someone I was involved with personally was a complete asshole (privately), and I felt that they deserved to be verbally bitch slapped. In cases like that, I will be "brutally honest" without regard for their feelings. But then there are times, on the boards for example, where there is really no good reason to put an opinion across in a hurtful way, then hide behind the whole "I was just being honest" card. I have found that I can say the exact same thing to a person in a nice (just as honest) way, without being hurtful or insulting. And I've noticed that when I do that, they are far more open and responsive in return.

Often our responses (and over reactions) on the boards are merely a reflection of our own insecurites, and of our own current issues, and our comments are sometimes a pontification to validate something within ourselves rather than to speak to the OP about themselves and their issue. Then other times a person is just begging to be insulted, but that's another story.

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Post #: 47

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:37:20 AM

colouredin

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I get in trouble for being honest all the time my father says its due to my total lack of tact and as I have grown up I tend to agree with him. Its fine being honest with people but only if its your place to say and if its worth it. For example if i am breaking up with someone because they are a total idiot, shit in bed and about as Dominant as my little toe i would tell them that it was a compatability issue, there would be no point in me ripping them apart it wouldnt achieve anything. Unfortunatly some people dont cope well with subtle and you have to hit them over the head with it. But again it depends who.

There is no point upsetting people purely because you want to be brutally honest sometimes its ok for little white lies or even just not mentioning something.

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(in reply to Mercnbeth)

Post #: 48

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:49:17 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
For example if i am breaking up with someone because they are a total idiot, shit in bed and about as Dominant as my little toe i would tell them that it was a compatability issue, there would be no point in me ripping them apart it wouldnt achieve anything.

Sometimes though the truth helps. You dont have to be brutal about it but you could give them something to work with and then they can look and improve in the areas they may be failing in.

quote:

Unfortunatly some people dont cope well with subtle and you have to hit them over the head with it. But again it depends who.

Very, very true. I have recent experience of this.

quote:

There is no point upsetting people purely because you want to be brutally honest sometimes its ok for little white lies or even just not mentioning something.

Depends on who the person is and what they want. Some people want honesty, brutal honesty. Some people believe a white lie is as bad a lie.

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Post #: 49

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:52:56 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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And some people claim they want brutal honesty but can't handle it when they get it. In fact, thinking back, I've never known anyone who asked for no holds barred who actually could handle it. The ones who ask for it, IMO, always throw tantrums when they get it.

In response to your op though, I think it's more of a gender line than a power one. Women can be brutal, but I find that when they do so it is on purpose. A lot of men don't seem to be so knowlegable on how what they say will effect people's emotions.

I have a son and what I am seeing in his and his friends is that they are not aware of the entire range of emotions. He interprets me not being happy as being angry. If I was crying he would get that I was sad but anything less than that and he's clueless. He doesn't know the difference between irritation, frustration, aggravation, exasperation etc. Or contentment, gladness, joy, happiness, ecstacy, bliss. If I said to him "follow your bliss" he wouldn't understand what it meant.

None of his male friends do but all the girls of the same age do know this. Girls learn the language of emotions but boys do not. And if they don't recognize it, they certainly can't temper their language to reflect it.

< Message edited by DesFIP -- 10/13/2008 12:01:17 PM >

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Post #: 50

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 11:56:35 AM

missturbation

Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

And some people claim they want brutal honesty but can't handle it when they get it. In fact, thinking back, I've never known anyone who asked for no holds barred who actually could handle it. The ones who ask for it, IMO, always throw tantrums when they get it.

Good description of me.
However although i paddy about it i also take it away and learn a lot from it.

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Post #: 51

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 12:20:59 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

Honesty? Brutal honesty? Beating around the bush? (no I'm not being political).

How about truth? What actually is truth?

Let's not forget here you've got abstract and concrete. To me there's only such thing as a universal truth when you're talking about something concrete. Now I know that I am sitting here accessing this website by means of a computer, which I'm assuming is the truth for all of us. Does anyone care to disagree with me here and claim that they're accessing this website via a donkey? A river is generally full of water - agreed?

So what happens when the subject is something abstract? Simple, there is no truth, just your perception of it based on your awareness, understanding, experience, etc. It's an opinion, and having many people sharing that opinion doesn't make it a fact but a consensus of opinion. Coke tastes good is an opinion. Being whacked with a cane hurts is an opinion.

Bearing this in mind to me being honest is sharing your opinion with due consideration of your audience and what they might think. Being brutally honest comes without any such consideration.

Edited for typos.

< Message edited by stella41b -- 10/13/2008 12:23:02 PM >

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 52

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 12:22:06 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I find it is ego. Certain dominants think that because they are dominant and that they might occasionally post a thread about how 'emotional' they can be, or the mistakes that they made in the past, that is admitting to flaws. That and as well that being dominant gives them the excuse to be an asshole, but if they admit to being an asshole, then that is ok as well. But it's not.

the.dark.

Oh, people like that are almost the lowest, the only ones lower are the ones too cowardly to hurl their insults openly, don't you just despise those lowlifes?

< Message edited by SimplyMichael -- 10/13/2008 12:23:24 PM >

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 53

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 12:26:13 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness
both the reader aswell the writer seem to forget it seems
the reader can't know it....but if the writer knows then he can try hard to refrase.
but well..if I have a bad day..you can write what you want...I would read it negative anyway...lol

good point

Yeah D, I tend to forget that at times. It's hard hey on a forum like this - people of different backgrounds and upbringings and ethnic traditions. And as you say - people have bad days.

the.dark.

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Post #: 54

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 12:33:40 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
Does anyone care to disagree with me here and claim that they're accessing this website via a donkey? A river is generally full of water - agreed?

Sure, I'll disagree just to be a pill. Sometimes I access this website from my cell phone which I generally don't think of as a "computer". Sometimes my wife accesses it via telephone and I post on her behalf. I know of "rivers" that haven't seen a stitch of water in years but are still marked the same on maps and referred to as rivers by locals.

Absolute truth belongs to god. The rest of mere mortals get to deal with our perception of the truth.

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(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 55

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 12:43:18 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Oh, people like that are almost the lowest, the only ones lower are the ones too cowardly to hurl their insults openly, don't you just despise those lowlifes?

Despise? Not even a little. It's too much of a waste of my time to worry about people like that. And name calling? I don't tend to do that either - again, a waste of time. Openly? I prefere not to break the rules of a site I signed up to - face to face? People get from me, what they give out. I know you like to hurl insults Michael just as much as you enjoy namedropping, and frankly I find both pretty pointless. But each to their own. If it makes you feel big and all that and it feeds your confidence - go with it. But what you think about people - good and bad, just as what I think of others, really is - well - pointless to everyone else. It's more an ego strutting exercise.

quote:

"I think so and so is a moron"

quote:

"I think so and so rocks"

Either way it all posturing. For example, on the whole you do have some cool things to say, but it gets tainted with the fact that your words don't match your actions. From my perspective, you don't learn and you haven't grown in my opinon, maybe outside these board you have, I don't know because I haven't met you - but on the boards here and elsewhere, you are still crappy dom.

But like I said, that is my perspective - I don't believe that my perspective is going to influence anyone. But even if people see it, hear it or read it- whatever they think - good or bad, positive or negative- it's all gonna rock because they are thinking about me. And just like any ego, that is a rocking sensation. That is why I suggested to misst it's about ego in the first place.
But I am happy to admit that about myself.
Are you?

the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Post #: 56

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 12:58:13 PM

SimplyMichael

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Joined: 1/7/2007
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Stella,

I grew up next to the San Diego River, I didn't know rivers were even supposed to have water in them till I grew up. I remember the first time I saw a river with flowing water, I was dumbfounded. To me, river meant a very wide expanse of sand between two hills where if you dug deep enough water might flow into the hole.

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 57

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 1:03:48 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

- I don't believe that my perspective is going to influence anyone.
the.dark.

I think you do influence people and I clearly do as well, after all, I did get you to admit you were insulting me without being man enough to own up to it. Personally, I grew past that many many years ago.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 58

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 1:24:05 PM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
Status: offline

And there you go again, making it all about you. If I wasn't a sincere person, I would say that was pretty sad - or that I feel sorry for you blahblahblah - however, I don't find it sad. Nor pathetic. It's you - and just the way you are. And nothings going to alter that you are self defeating except yourself. You can think anything that you want Michael, does not make it correct. And as usual, you avoid the question posed and go for the attempt at an insult.

I have never denied I think you act like a little boy occasionally Michael. That isn't an insult by the way, it's a perspective. As I said, you have some good to say at times, but you lose the wow factor by being intentionally nasty to individuals. It's not an overall thing - but you make it personal. And you want it to be all about you - that's cool in this moment in time with me on this post - number 58. Cherish it by all means. Take from it what you need and discard the rest. But I am not about to fall into the trap of getting moderated because I dislike another persons behaviour and because you are trying to get me to name call you - it's just the person you are and I choose not to like that persona. It's all cool with me and it's disappointing that it's not with you. But that's life. For every thing I might write, someone else can contradict my thought. It rocks.

Maybe I do influence people, who knows? The world is full of 'maybes'. But I don't write (using this forum as an example) with the intention to influence people or win friends or make enemies. I like to converse. I enjoy debate. What I say - IMO - is not enough to change a life. You have to be what you want to do that - you have to be the change or positivity. I am disappointed when people who I see potential in, get whiney and try to make things all about them, instead of realising that just being can make the world of difference. Particularly for themselves.

And no, you haven't grown. I saw a sparkle of growth for a while back then, but now? My perception from your posts on this forum recently, is that you are falling backwards.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 10/13/2008 1:25:46 PM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 1:33:11 PM

RealSub58

Posts: 1073
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

theory:
honesty= to help others
brutal honesty= to hurt others

This speaks of intent.... of why one uses approach A over B..... I don't think you can simplify all brutal honest events with the intent of a person want to hurt them. Yes... I agree that many do have that intent. I think also they can have an intent not to care what a person feels, the truth is what matters. I think also their is the intent that the given approach is needed because only that approach will be effective to reaching the person (and sometimes that is true, sometimes not)... there are various intents/motivations for a given behavior...

And how does anyone think they can judge intent or motive on a forum like this?

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 60

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