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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 2:30:01 PM

missturbation

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ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

I think it is brutal to say we don't appreciate irony.

You brits can't even see if our clothes are wrinkly...

If there was irony in there it slipped right over my halo.

Wrinkled clothes need an iron to smooth them out. Irony, wrinkly.. get it?

*slaps forehead*
Doh me

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 2:50:55 PM

SimplyMichael

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I hope we can "smooth" things out before we pull our hare out in frustration.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 2:57:31 PM

derfrewop

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

It seems the most disarming thing you can do to many people is to hold up a mirror. I never understand why, doing so, creates so much animosity. It's not a case of "misunderstanding" its understanding VERY clearly and saying - this is the clear vision I'm seeing. There isn't a requirement for agreement, or seeing it the same way; that would be boring.

...

More confusing is why someone's words in conflict can produce such a negative reaction and response. Don't YOU believe in YOU? Aren't YOU sure that no matter how it appears to someone else, YOU are confident in yourself and the manner you choose to live?
...
What stops more people from doing the same?

Merc's close to the core. Brutal honesty is not a snub or insult, it is a very clear and uncompromising statement of reality as it is seen by the Brute that does not allow the recipient to maintain the belief in their own goodness. Every human must be able to see themselves as good people and will tell themselves any lie that lets them see themselves as basically good. Brutal honesty tells the recipient that the problem makes it impossible for others to see them as a basically good human.

A recent personal example where I was the brute: Two girls, lifelong friends and one finds the love of her life. The other, afraid of losing the friendship starts sabotaging the couple in many many ways.

The honest way of approaching the saboteur would go like "Hey Sandy, you are making Jessie so upset because you keep saying bad things about Ken, you are always tring to break them up. Ken is a good guy, why can't you just be happy for your friend?"

The brutally honest approach is more like "Sandy, you have been destroying your best friends chance for happiness just because you are insecure. You are not only going to drive Ken away, but you are also going to drive Jessie away and most importantly, you will completely deserve all of the loneliness because you are proving to everyone that you are not a friend, you are just a manipulative leech trying to destroy others lives so you don't have to face your own shallowness."

The difference is the direct linking between the problem and the recipients belief in their own basic goodness. This is the source of the extreme reaction to brutal honesty. To quote an aphorism, "Death is a small price to pay for self respect". Brutal honesty makes self respect impossible. Also because of this, the choice to be brutally honest is the choice to risk permanently ending the relationship. After brutal honesty, the only way to salvage the relationship is to make clear a there is a way to change the reality presented. The choice for the recipient is to either make the change or leave. The need to see ourselves as good is so basic that it absolutely must be maintained.

With all of these things in mind, brutal honesty has this one big thing in its favor. It frequently works. Nobody continues behavior that they think will make them a bad person and brutal honesty destroys the little lies that allow them to do bad things and still think of themselves as good.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 2:59:13 PM

sambamanslilgirl

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"gentle" honesty is what i save for my girls and that's where i draw the line.

brutal honesty is what i give everyone else

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:08:35 PM

gypsygrl

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quote:

Every human must be able to see themselves as good people and will tell themselves any lie that lets them see themselves as basically good.

Nah. Some people don't care one way or the other if they're basically good or not. They've been labled sociopaths. Others have gotten used to the idea that they're flawed, and fall far short of any ideal of goodness. These are realists. Still others have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to be good and what it might mean to be a good person. These are philosophers and ethicists. And some are convinced they're rotten to the core. These are the guilt-ridden among us.

In my experience, only a small number of grown ups hold tight to the belief in their own goodness. But, that might be explained by the company I keep.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:09:32 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

To me the intent of the person is just as important as to what is actually being said.

"Good intent" is never good and rarely generates the result intend-ed.

Intent... is just intent!.... Quailifing it as Good or Bad is just a subjective characterization on the part of the person that is doing the quailifing. The results of behavior no matter of the intention and there relationship is also a subjective characterization. I see no universal facts that dictates that a particular qualified "Good Intent" as never being good... nor do I see universal facts that would dictate that such good intentions rarely get the intended results. But... I do see that regardless of intentions... Results do occur... and there is various subjective characterizations of both the intentions and results.

quote:

If, as in the example you chose, the target was quieted, it speaks to my point - he lacked the confidence in his position to do so. As the facilitator of that meeting, I could have chosen to believe that was the case, or he did lack integrity and either doubted his position or he commonly misrepresented himself to placate the targeted audience.

Since.. I know the person in question... I can attest that confidence was not an issue. Like many situations, what he intended did not get the results he desired. He needed to reconsider how to approach an issue with this given VP. Consider the VP was newly appointed and this was his first interaction with most everyone in the meeting.. this was very much new ground in how to interact with the person and not just the issue that was on the table that given meeting. It's easy to make assumptions... and some individuals do just that and often can be very wrong. I can't speak on the thougths of the VP... only the behaviors that I witnessed.. and considering the quieted individual has done rather well under the VP since that time... I suspect this one incident had little concern for the VP. In the end... The VP like many others looks at the results achieved which reflects that the person Intentions + Abilities = Results.

quote:

Accepting "everyone lies" is no way to further a relationship regardless if that relationship is casual, business, or intimate.

No... it has nothing to do with furthering a relationship.. nor does it detract from a relationship. It is just a simple reality that people will lie if the given motivation is justified in there opinion. Qualifing the lie as good or bad is a subjective characterization. When people share these subject rationalizations they actually can further the relationship regardless of relationship type. It is not the lie or the truth... it is the difference or shared rationalizations that will further or distance a relationship.

quote:

Rationalizing lies to facilitate an ongoing friendship speaks to the inherent fundamental weakness of that friendship.

I disagree... it maybe that the relationship has an inherent weakness and sooner or later the weakness will win out. However, if the rationalization is shared it will actually have strikely different results.

quote:

I'd agree it is becoming an acceptable principle, but like many things - I prefer not to participate when it comes to matters of friendship, or business for that matter. People need to appreciate that there are consequences for actions, and consequences for lies. An "everyone lies" philosophy would be accepting defeat and never allow for anyone to be considered a 'friend'. "Everyone lies" means you can't trust anyone. Trust extends much further than providing feedback that you want to hear. A friend doesn't need modifiers to honesty.

These comments only speak of your own rationalizations or the lack of rationalizations that can be given. Obviously, you would likely have a reasonable opportunity with someone that shares these values and opinions and not so much for those that tend to rationalize lies all to often in there interaction with others.

quote:

Beyond its use as slang or a 'figure of speech', modifying honesty defeats its usage. Honesty is or isn't. Works the same way with trust. "Intent", especially 'good intent' should not get in the way. Otherwise, the focus of your intent can reasonably assume that every future time you are in agreement you are also not "brutally honest". Of course the short version of that is that you lied.

Again... this speaks to your own rationalizations with regards to what is honest and what is not. Your given perception is as true or false as you wish to believe just as anyone. Your perception is yours and hardly the one that is right one for everyone.

quote:

The question becomes what is more important to a relationship; a partner who commits to 'honesty' with any modifier, or a lie - rationalized by "intent"?

So.. does the end justify the means? For some the answer is no.... for others it's yes. I know what my answer is... and I listen to what the answer is for others.... those that share my own brand of rationalization maybe a canadiate for friendship... others not so much.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:11:30 PM

pixidustpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

Absolute truth belongs to god. The rest of mere mortals get to deal with our perception of the truth.

i have a friend who refers to those differences as Truth (as known by the powers that be, however you name them) and truth (whats known by man). i tend to agree with her.

kitten, whose tact button is nearly always engaged because *she* gets her feelings hurt easily

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:17:16 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealSub58
And how does anyone think they can judge intent or motive on a forum like this?

I don't think it is a question of judging... it is a question of being accurate with said judgement. I wouldn't say it's easy that is for sure and more likely to be wrong than that right in most cases. Particularly when said judgement involves assumptions that often has as much chance of being right has flipping a coin.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:23:13 PM

KnightofMists

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

However I disagree with you and I do find he has slipped backwards since his 'return'.

ironic... it is slip backwards from time to time that reflect positively for me on a person as their steps forward. When a person is making or trying to make changes, I do not expect prefection as they step forward... in fact... I become rather suspicious when they never slip into that rut. When they do slip in.. I watch for manner in which they get themselves back out of the rut of past behaviors.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:37:43 PM

Rogue86

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There is a certain "Damned if You do, damned if You don't" element here, though. Whether you admit to it or not, there is a certain amount of posturing that subs generally expect from a Dominant. Of course We have the full range of emotions, but sometimes wearing that on our sleeves can be counter-productive. It's one thing to be in an established partnership and show vulnerability. It can be quite another when first getting to know a sub. I once stated to a sub I was getting to know that something they had done / said had 'hurt my feelings'. It was honest, and direct. The reply? I'm not "Domly" enough and I should suck it up. You can't have your cake and eat it too whether you are D or s. Subs who want their Dominant to show strength should expect them to not always 'cop' to feeling vulnerable. Subs who want the full range of emotion displayed honestly should not use that against the Dominant when it happens.

As for Brutal honesty: There is a difference between complete honesty and Brutal honesty - and that is in the delivery. I don't believe in Brutal honesty because - by my definition - it comes from an unhealthy place, it's about hurting and not helping or communicating. Complete honesty, on the other hand, can be difficult to hear or accept - but that doesn't make it brutal - just uncomfortable at times. As far as I'm concerned if someone is being 'brutally honest' with you, you should cut them out of your life because they are poison for your soul.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:48:06 PM

born4serving

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i am someone who loves sucking on strapon's; its not that i'm gay, but i just love it because of the humiliation factor. However, the other day a friend of mine made quite a scene about something i said to him which had nothing to do with homosexuality, but he really digged the nail hard about the topic which made me wonder what people would think about me.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:50:26 PM

gypsygrl

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Just a thought: Someone around here has a sig line thats a quote from einstein. I can't remember it, but its something to the effect that when presenting the truth, elegance should be left to the tailor.

Maye we should leave brutality to the butcher.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:51:04 PM

lusciouslips19

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

Just a thought: Someone around here has a sig line thats a quote from einstein. I can't remember it, but its something to the effect that when presenting the truth, elegance should be left to the tailor.

Maye we should leave brutality to the butcher.

Look below Its right here for ya on my sig line!

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 3:52:19 PM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: born4serving

i am someone who loves sucking on strapon's; its not that i'm gay, but i just love it because of the humiliation factor. However, the other day a friend of mine made quite a scene about something i said to him which had nothing to do with homosexuality, but he really digged the nail hard about the topic which made me wonder what people would think about me.

.....and I think this might be a good example of "just too much"

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 4:18:11 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

It's easy to make assumptions... and some individuals do just that and often can be very wrong.

No doubt! I have a goal of being completely wrong at least once a day - it parallels my goal of learning something new every day. I'm confident that today I've, at the very least, fulfilled my expectation.

I wonder how many times your friend stated a discussion with the VP using the same; "To be honest..." preface? If nothing else the VP's intent of making him think about how he was representing himself was established. More people should engage in that pre-talk self edit process. It's always assumed on CM that IMO precedes every comment. Should every comment not preceded by, "to be honest..." be considered a lie or have intent of offending? Then again, usually the intent disclaimer goes; "I don't mean to offend you BUT..." followed by an offending opinion.

quote:

I disagree... it maybe that the relationship has an inherent weakness and sooner or later the weakness will win out.

Better to lie about the weakness and use the friendship until it breaks under the strain of its foundation of deceit? It seems to be a self fulling prophecy of failure. When you can rely on a person for being truthful regardless whether you want to hear it or not, enables you to get past any truthfully disclosed weakness. The facade of a lie, regardless of the intent, is only a facade. It won't stand up to any strong wind. Regardless of the depth of the relationship, where is there a value going on when, as you say; "sooner or later the weakness will win out"?

quote:

These comments only speak of your own rationalizations or the lack of rationalizations that can be given. Obviously, you would likely have a reasonable opportunity with someone that shares these values and opinions and not so much for those that tend to rationalize lies all to often in there interaction with others.

Well, how can I not agree with a statement that something either is or isn't a rationalization?

I find people who need to rationalize lying annoying. Uncovering agenda or motivation isn't something I care to do when it comes to friends. It's a necessary evil in doing business, but personal relationships shouldn't involve work. Analysis or determining if a statement or opinion was given honestly isn't something I want to dedicate time to 'off the clock'.

Not that I require anyone I meet to be a 'friend'. However, if an opinion is asked of me, they'll get a straight answer. Some may consider the answer 'brutally honest', others may see is as 'insightful', still more would say its a function of me being an 'asshole'. In any event the answer won't be different. My intent is simple - I'd like to be able to reflect back on anything I say that I answered honestly. I'll let others provide the modifier.

quote:

Again... this speaks to your own rationalizations with regards to what is honest and what is not.

I don't understand how honesty is subject to perspective from the standpoint of the person answering a question. You know you are lying when you speak. The listener's perspective is something you have no control over. If he/she believes you or not is a matter of your integrity. Finding out you lied, but had the 'intent' of helping, invalidates your integrity for future advice. How can a source know to rationalize a lie for the sake of intent be trusted again? He or she may utilize you in the future when in need of a good source of validation and enabling. Is that the intent?

quote:

So.. does the end justify the means? For some the answer is no.... for others it's yes. I know what my answer is... and I listen to what the answer is for others.... those that share my own brand of rationalization maybe a candidate for friendship... others not so much.

The terms of your friendship include accepting that you aren't a consistent source of truth? That can't be your intent, can it?

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 4:21:01 PM

derfrewop

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

Every human must be able to see themselves as good people and will tell themselves any lie that lets them see themselves as basically good.

Nah. Some people don't care one way or the other if they're basically good or not. They've been labled sociopaths. Others have gotten used to the idea that they're flawed, and fall far short of any ideal of goodness. These are realists. Still others have spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to be good and what it might mean to be a good person. These are philosophers and ethicists. And some are convinced they're rotten to the core. These are the guilt-ridden among us.

Gypsy, I think you missed the essence here. All of the examples you mention relate to how others see the person. My point is that brutal honesty touches how the person thinks of themselves, not how others see them. That is why anybody who came on this board and says we are all horrible people because we like causing pain immediately gets dismissed. It would be damn near unanimous that the truth is "We are good people who happen to like this". To specifically address your objections, a sociopath does not care what others think, they believe their own wants and desires to be good. The "realist" sees themselves as falling short but trying. And so on. The central self conception of all humans is that they are good or at least good enough or even bad but trying their best.

Not to Godwin it but even Hitler was convinced that he was a basically good person trying to do the best he could.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 4:24:41 PM

Lordandmaster

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I can't speak for "d-types" (and think most of these generalizations are bunk--how about that for brutal honesty?), but I will say that dishonesty is almost always more hurtful in the long run. There may be some situations where it is genuinely kinder not to be completely honest, but those situations are extremely rare. Usually people resort to this sort of justification only because it's easier on their conscience.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 4:59:56 PM

yourMissTress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

dishonesty is almost always more hurtful in the long run. There may be some situations where it is genuinely kinder not to be completely honest, but those situations are extremely rare. Usually people resort to this sort of justification only because it's easier on their conscience.

There is one thing above all that I require in my relationships, honesty. I won't say brutal honesty, because I've learned that word implies, to some, that the truth is something with which to hurt another. For me, being lied to is worse than anything else. Once I've been lied to, I can't believe a word that person says, ever again. And I rethink anything that was said prior.

Given that belief, I am at times hypocritical, as are all of us who live in a civilized society. We tell little white lies as necessary in polite social situations. There are times when the truth is not appropriate or welcomed. There are times when to tell the truth would be more damaging to another human being than a lie.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 5:44:04 PM

stella41b

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quote:

ORIGINAL: born4serving

i am someone who loves sucking on strapon's; its not that i'm gay, but i just love it because of the humiliation factor. However, the other day a friend of mine made quite a scene about something i said to him which had nothing to do with homosexuality, but he really digged the nail hard about the topic which made me wonder what people would think about me.

I mean well, yes... most people choose pens, straws, ice lollies, ice creams, and so on. I'd have to admit that sucking on a dildo at your desk at work or in a public place is pretty kinky.

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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/13/2008 6:53:08 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I can't speak for "d-types" (and think most of these generalizations are bunk--how about that for brutal honesty?), but I will say that dishonesty is almost always more hurtful in the long run. There may be some situations where it is genuinely kinder not to be completely honest, but those situations are extremely rare. Usually people resort to this sort of justification only because it's easier on their conscience.

Oh I don't agree, LaM. I have found I can handle the most difficult honesty over the sweetest lie any day. For me, as soon as I know someone was evasive or even somewhat dishonest to try to spare my feelings, trust is either questioned or entirely gone. If it is questioned, then way too much of my energy is spent trying to figure out "what is" and "what is not," even to the point of reviewing my complete past with that person and questioning all of it. I personally found that an exhausting and horrible place to be, and it sucked the life out of me. That kind of dishonesty may seem less hurtful to the one presenting it, but in the long run, it really is more hurtful to the one receiving it, even if nobody else can see it. At lest that's been my experience.

Some of these discussions on this thread have been really interesting, and I'm appreciative to all who have written.

As for "brutal honesty," I think it's subjective. Those closest to me can be "brutally honest" by holding up a mirror to me, which might present an image I don't like. They do this because they love me, because I need to see it, and because they can count on me to do the same for them. This is what honest friendship is, in my view. "Brutal honesty" from relative strangers doesn't hold much weight with me. They do not know me or my history, after all, so they can only be speaking from their own perspective on life, according to their history. While I appreciate when others want to share their opinions with me, of what I might be doing wrong, I can better appreciate it if presented less "brutally," given they really don't know me all that well. There are ways to state your opinion while still being sensitive to the other person. But as for those in my inner circle, don't hold back. I trust they love me, and they know I love them, and it's all good.

Great thread, misst.

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