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RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 6:32:26 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Thanks for the clarity, misst. I was reading it as a sort of justification. I see what you're saying now.





No not at all. I can openly admit there are times when i am brutally honest bordering on just too much here and in r/l when i am intentionally so. There are also times when i give what has become a standard uniform answer which is brutal, but there was no intent to be brutal behind it at all.

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(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 6:59:01 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
There are also times when i give what has become a standard uniform answer which is brutal, but there was no intent to be brutal behind it at all.


When you do this, do you try to go back and fix it?

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:05:01 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

Honesty should ever be taken for rudeness and vice versa, words are not meant to hurt


This statement is indicative of the biggest problem. What one person sees as mean and hurtful, another may not at all.

In my life, I know that my middle sister is a bit unstable. There is very little "truth" I will tell her simply because her whole life is built on dellusion. Speaking the truth will accomplish nothing except to hurt her. I have no reason to hurt her, she is doing a bang up job of that all on her own. Similarly with my mother.

My youngest sister, on the other hand, she and I can speak quite openly to one another and my truth can be much less filtered and to the point. She isn't going to flip out into a rage or tears.

I don't think it is necessarily how you speak the truth over all, but how much you bother to get to know the person you are "truthing" first. Then, how much self awareness and restraint you show in handling each situation.

There is a very fine line between a painful honesty that helps another grow, and the snarky negative kind that is a thinly veiled attack. It takes a great deal of self awareness and maturity to avoid crossing that line.

All too often, while our truth and honesty, really is........we use it as a subtle weapon to hurt in a way that reflects quite poorly in our own mirror. Unfortunately, that is much less clear to us. It is a truth we tend to avoid because shining a light on other's faults and issues is ever so much less painful.....to us.

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My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:19:21 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

In my life, I know that my middle sister is a bit unstable. There is very little "truth" I will tell her simply because her whole life is built on dellusion. Speaking the truth will accomplish nothing except to hurt her. I have no reason to hurt her, she is doing a bang up job of that all on her own. Similarly with my mother.




Hi LaT,

What you wrote here above...to me that is compassion. And compassion is something that is often lacking when people are wanting to be "brutally honest." You have compassion for your middle sister, and because of that, you know you can not talk to her as you would the youngest sister, without hurting her. This is where people fail to discern when "brutal honesty" will be helpful, productive, or a disaster. Without compassion, it's really not about the well being of the recipient.

I'm currently watching someone extremely close to me totally fuck up her life. She is too emotionally weak right now for me to hit her over the head with a two-by-four. I am the one and only person she can go to about certain things, because I will hold a mirror up to her without breaking it over her head, while still loving her and giving her a safe place to go. This doesn't mean I condone what she is doing, and she knows that. If I launched a knock-out punch to her about just how horrifically badly she is doing, it would crush her, blind her, and send her off down a faster path to self destruction. While I know I'm not her savior, I also don't want to be the final catalyst that lands her in a padded room (and not in a fun way).

I'm glad you posted this. People forget that compassion also plays a part in being honest.

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:24:33 AM   
missturbation


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Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
There are also times when i give what has become a standard uniform answer which is brutal, but there was no intent to be brutal behind it at all.


When you do this, do you try to go back and fix it?


No because i only really realised it is something i do today. I haven't stopped to consider the brutality of some of my answers here before.
Will i now try to correct this and not post so brutally? Yes. If i do will i attempt to correct the damage? Yes.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:30:06 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		That's awesome, misst, and a great example of being honest with yourself, too. Thanks for putting it out there - it makes a difference.

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:41:49 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you NuevaVida,

My compassion-o-metre is still a huge work in progress. It has only been very recent that I realized that not everyone in the world has the same filters I do when it comes to this sort of thing. What can I say, I am a slow learner.

I also think that maturity and being at peace within yourself and who you are, plays a HUGE part in this. You tend to lose the desire to maim people with your truth and honesty because life ceases to be as much of a competition.

You also come to realize that each person has their own life path and they have to deal with their shit, their way. Most of the time, nothing you say is going to change that. My sister and mother are two prime examples. Everyone else in the world can see what they have done, and are doing, but them. I just have to assume that there is some life lesson they need to learn from it and let it go. Their happiness is not my responsibility.

Neither is their UNhappiness. Sometimes brutal honesty is just us, making their unhappiness our responsibility, to avoid dealing with our own shit.


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:43:51 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		The definition of

brutal: 
1. Extremely ruthless or cruel.2. Crude or unfeeling in manner or speech.3. Harsh; unrelenting: a brutal winter in the Arctic.4. Disagreeably precise or penetrating:

If you'll note, misst...the variations in the definition above alter the connotation of "brutal honesty" quite a bit.  How many posts in that thread were honest, but brutally so in the manner of #4 above?  Because they were seen as being in disagreement, then there were those who saw these posts as posturing while others...perhaps because they agreed...saw them as brutally honest in the manner of # 4.
Perhaps there were those who saw the OP...and see other OPs or other posts anywhere here on the forum as being presented in a manner consistent with definition #2 above.  Or perhaps even definition #1 in presentation.

My point is that "brutal" honesty is often seen harshly, either when others disagree with it OR due to the manner it is presented.  Can a person be tactful and be fully honest?  Yes, but it requires a certain amount of skill and time. I had an employee at one time who just wasn't getting the job done.  When I fired her...something I am not good at...I told her that she was not getting the job done because she did not move fast enough to complete the tasks assigned to her, she allowed herself to get hung up on mundane details that meant little or nothing in the scope of things and I could not afford to pay someone full-time for work that was representative of a part-time endeavor.  That was being fully honest but it took some time to word it right. I could have been "brutally" honesty and stated this:  you are wayyyyyyyyyyy too slow.  I am not sure whether it is an indication of stupidity or laziness but it doesn't work for me or this organization.  You are anal over the things you should not be and lackadaisical over the things that require attention.  In other words, you're a loser at this job.  Now, everything I just said in this past example was true but put in a "brutally" honest manner.  It fits any of the definitions given above, except perhaps #3 as the attack is not sustained and does not carry over into other areas of her life.  It took little thought to compile that one but it is just as fully honest.  Some people's use of "brutal" honesty comes about not from any great sense of need to be "fully" honest but rather from a place of anger and/or a gut reaction to others' sarcasm/irony/"brutal" honesty. 

My point?  You can be fully honest and not be brutal as defined by #2 above.  You can also be brutally honest and not be brutal as defined by # 2 above but rather by #4 and, in some eyes, you are still going to come across as definition # 2 simply because your honesty is disagreeable to the one reading it.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:45:09 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
There are also times when i give what has become a standard uniform answer which is brutal, but there was no intent to be brutal behind it at all.


When you do this, do you try to go back and fix it?


No because i only really realised it is something i do today. I haven't stopped to consider the brutality of some of my answers here before.
Will i now try to correct this and not post so brutally? Yes. If i do will i attempt to correct the damage? Yes.


I wanted to add here though misst - is that whatever you attempt to correct, there will always be someone, somewhere who won't agree and will still see brutality.  Understanding that you can't please everyone all the time is a big thing.  You can't control other peoples perception.  And that people who end up mattering in your life, won't care if you sometimes fuck up.  Loving someone for who they are fucking rocks.
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:47:22 AM   
colouredin


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Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		yup all honesty can be considered brutal if the person doing the listening doesnt want to hear

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(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:47:48 AM   
DavanKael


Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi, folks----
I have been accused of brutal honesty (And sometimes just outright verbal  brutality) and have also been complimented on eloquent honesty.  While always endeavoring for the point of honesty and even-handedness, sometimes emotions become involved.  Some peole on here have quality things to say, others not-so-much.  I believe self-possession is very important and being able to filter things for one's self even when it smarts to have them said in a way we'd not have preferreed is important.
Have a great day, all!  :> 
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 10/14/2008 7:49:07 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:48:25 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		And again, it really does go back to intent. Which, unless we know the person fairly well, we cannot know if their intent is brutality.

And yes, there are some people that will filter just about anything you tell them, about them, into an attack. Regardless of how carefully you word it.


< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 10/14/2008 7:49:43 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:53:30 AM   
NuevaVida


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Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Neither is their UNhappiness. Sometimes brutal honesty is just us, making their unhappiness our responsibility, to avoid dealing with our own shit.



I agreed with your entire (and great) post, but this really stood out. It gives me something to ponder today (as though my head isn't full enough, thank you very much!!)

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:58:49 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And again, it really does go back to intent. Which, unless we know the person fairly well, we cannot know if their intent is brutality.

And yes, there are some people that will filter just about anything you tell them, about them, into an attack. Regardless of how carefully you word it.



I think that is pretty much what I was trying to say, only without the 'intent' persay.  As I said before, intent and honesty are both really subjective.  I really believe that the mental and physical 'wellbeing' of a person is key.  I don't know if that is different to intent for others or not - I just tend to seperate them personally.  And as always LadyT - your previous post rocked(of course that is a subjective assessment)
 
the.dark.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 7:59:29 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation
There are also times when i give what has become a standard uniform answer which is brutal, but there was no intent to be brutal behind it at all.


When you do this, do you try to go back and fix it?


No because i only really realised it is something i do today. I haven't stopped to consider the brutality of some of my answers here before.
Will i now try to correct this and not post so brutally? Yes. If i do will i attempt to correct the damage? Yes.


I wanted to add here though misst - is that whatever you attempt to correct, there will always be someone, somewhere who won't agree and will still see brutality.  Understanding that you can't please everyone all the time is a big thing.  You can't control other peoples perception.  And that people who end up mattering in your life, won't care if you sometimes fuck up.  Loving someone for who they are fucking rocks.
 
the.dark.

Just to clarify, what I meant by trying to fix it wasn't necessarily to make the other person feel better; rather, to "make amends", so to speak. To make it right with herself, so she doesn't feel badly about behaving in a way she prefers not to. I might be having an off day and say something really flippant to you, and you might forgive that, knowing my intentions were not coming from a bad place. But I would still need to go back and "make it right" (by way of apology, clarification, etc.) else I would not feel good about myself. Plus, I would want you to know that I recognized my poor behavior and took accountability for it. Or, if it was to someone who didn't know me very well, I would want to clarify to them that it wasn't my intention to be hurtful, and apologize for it.

"Fixing it" doesn't mean going back to please them...it means to me, fixing it within. I hope that makes sense.

And I am right there with ya re: loving someone for who they are.



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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 8:00:16 AM   
missturbation


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quote:

The definition of

brutal: 
1. Extremely ruthless or cruel.
2. Crude or unfeeling in manner or speech.
3. Harsh; unrelenting: a brutal winter in the Arctic.
4. Disagreeably precise or penetrating:


I hope i'm not the only person turned on by the above
 
quote:

My point?  You can be fully honest and not be brutal as defined by #2 above.  You can also be brutally honest and not be brutal as defined by # 2 above but rather by #4 and, in some eyes, you are still going to come across as definition # 2 simply because your honesty is disagreeable to the one reading it.


Agreed
 
quote:

I wanted to add here though misst - is that whatever you attempt to correct, there will always be someone, somewhere who won't agree and will still see brutality.  Understanding that you can't please everyone all the time is a big thing.  You can't control other peoples perception.  And that people who end up mattering in your life, won't care if you sometimes fuck up.  Loving someone for who they are fucking rocks.
 
the.dark.

 
Very true.
 
quote:

yup all honesty can be considered brutal if the person doing the listening doesnt want to hear

 
Very true. Although i tend to find people who don't want to see the truth just ignore it.
 
 









_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 8:04:26 AM   
missturbation


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Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
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quote:

Plus, I would want you to know that I recognized my poor behavior and took accountability for it.

 
A rarity.
Taking responsibility for ones actions seems to be something most people are not capable of nowadays.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 8:06:34 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: missturbation

quote:

Plus, I would want you to know that I recognized my poor behavior and took accountability for it.

 
A rarity.
Taking responsibility for ones actions seems to be something most people are not capable of nowadays.


Oh I dunno, misst...maybe. With the people in my life, it's not only common, but expected. Maybe out there in the general public...but I really couldn't' say. I'd like to think that's not the case, but then again I like my rosey glasses.

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 8:06:40 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

"Fixing it" doesn't mean going back to please them...it means to me, fixing it within. I hope that makes sense.

And I am right there with ya re: loving someone for who they are.




I have to be brutally honest sweetone... 
I find I dig you completely hunni.
Love you.
 
the.dark.

_____________________________
RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Honesty, brutal honesty and just too much !! - 10/14/2008 8:08:26 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Now THAT'S a brutal honesty I can live with!!!

That digging is totally mutual, dear one.

And with that happy note, I'm off to work.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 140
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