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Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 5:47:52 PM

servingwench80

Posts: 206
Joined: 12/3/2005
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I first started thinking about this when I was emailing back and forth with a person that I met at a munch. It began when he said that he expected me to reply promptly to emails, but he may not be able to reply as promptly because he was busy, life issues, etc. My first thought then was "What, and you don't think I'm busy?"
Then quite a few emails later, with another issue entirely, he said:

What rules apply to the sub do not necessarily apply to the Dom, and if you don't like it or want to argue about it, are you "submissive"?

Am I wrong in thinking that this should not be true? I want a Dom who can teach me and help me grow. If I am held to a higher standard than he is (in anything or everything), and I achieve that higher standard, how then is he able to teach me anymore? Am I wrong in thinking that the DOM should be held to a higher standard than the sub? And not just because he has accepted the responsibility for guiding/growing another person (assuming this is part of the relationship). Should a Dom not try to be an example for their sub?

After a few casual comments like these, I just got the impression that he wanted to sit back and relax while the sub does all the work. Am I being too hard on him? I'm not saying the sub shouldn't have to put effort into things, but obviously no relationship can work if it is one-sided.

As an analogy, I'll go back to the thoughts I had in high school. Should teachers not try to set an example for their students? Why is there a double standard? If a student is late for class, there are penalties. If a student turns in an assignment late, there are penalties. But if a teacher is late for class, or takes a long time to get papers/tests graded and returned, there are no penalties. Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

Granted, this is a trivial example, as was the emailing issue, but it's the general idea that I'm concerned with. Obviously the exact same rules really don't apply to Doms and subs. If the Dom is trying to teach the sub punctuality, and the Dom is late for one reason or another, no one expects the Dom to get a spanking from the sub. But honestly, who is going to put any effort into punctuality lessons from someone who is late themselves?

SHOULD there be a double standard? Is it fair or right for a Dom to expect more from their sub than they expect from themselves?

Post #: 1

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 6:08:54 PM

Crazytwice

Posts: 145
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: North of Boston
Status: offline

I think a certain amount of cordiality and considerateness is neccessary to sustain a relationship, any relationship.

To expect you to answer e-mails promptly and not give you the same respect in return, that's just plain rude. He's hiding his lack of social skills behind the facade of a Dom.

I would tell this guy to take a hike.

Good luck,
CT

_____________________________

"If you build it, he will come"
~Field of Dreams~

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 2

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 6:23:20 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servingwench80
What rules apply to the sub do not necessarily apply to the Dom, and if you don't like it or want to argue about it, are you "submissive"?

One of my oldest personal quote is "Ds stands for double standards"

Ultimately this isn't true- everyone in a relationship needs to be honest, committed, working for the ultimate good of everyone.

HOWEVER, the ways in which this happens is very different for one side of the slash than the other. Yes, the sub has a different set of parameters than the dom.

quote:

Am I wrong in thinking that this should not be true? I want a Dom who can teach me and help me grow. If I am held to a higher standard than he is (in anything or everything), and I achieve that higher standard, how then is he able to teach me anymore? Am I wrong in thinking that the DOM should be held to a higher standard than the sub?

Yes you are wrong in that.

No one should be held to any standard other than what they agreed to be held to.

This is why you need to know what your dom will expect of you BEFORE agreeing to commit to it. And the dom obviously needs to know what you expect within the relationship before he can.

Doms need to learn and grow too. It's nice to think, but it's just not reality that they are perfectly fresh out of the box with no need to improve. Your dom will learn amazing things from you.

quote:

Should a Dom not try to be an example for their sub?

Only if they want to be. They aren't your dom to be an example, they are your dom to be an authority figure.

Obviously they ARE a good example of who you want in your life if you choose them. If they aren't a good example of who you want in your life then perhaps you chose badly or perhaps you have both changed to have new perspectives. NOT because the dom is somehow doing something wrong.

quote:

After a few casual comments like these, I just got the impression that he wanted to sit back and relax while the sub does all the work. Am I being too hard on him? I'm not saying the sub shouldn't have to put effort into things, but obviously no relationship can work if it is one-sided.

Agreed, and you will find a lot of doms, especially novices, do think that's exactly what Ds is- a pristine situation of hedonistic laziness.

However, if he wants you to go wash laundry while he goes to a club with his friends, and you KNEW that when you agreed to the relationship, there's no foul to call on him.

quote:

Should teachers not try to set an example for their students? Why is there a double standard?

A fabulous question.

quote:

Does this seem wrong to anyone else?

No. The teacher is the authority figure. The student accept them as such AND all the responsibilities and privileges that provides them BY agreeing to be a student to that teacher.

quote:

But honestly, who is going to put any effort into punctuality lessons from someone who is late themselves?

Plenty of people.

quote:

SHOULD there be a double standard? Is it fair or right for a Dom to expect more from their sub than they expect from themselves?

Absolutely.

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 3

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 7:05:01 PM

LadySonelle

Posts: 280
Joined: 8/24/2004
From: Santa Fe NM
Status: offline

I hold Myself and My subs/slaves to the *same* standard: courtesy and honour, If a slave is late with as reply I expect an apology. Conversely if I am late with a reply, I also extend My regrets to the slave! I was taught asd a girl that courtesy to servants and to all ithers, regardless of their position (WRT My own) was expected of a gently mannered person.

If I desire My slaves to have humility, I must show them. If I desire My slaves to have manners, I must display the same manners and courtesy. When a slave pleases Me I respond with "Thank you," or "Very well done!".

For slaves qho need a certain level of verbal abuse or humiliation, I have no difficulty with it, but I very much prefer to speak kindly when the situation warrants it.

Double standards can be fun for play (such as "The sub is *always ar fault!") but in everyday life and social intercourse, they are simply ill mannered.

Lady Sonelle

_____________________________

Come to My domain and read My Lessons online! http://www.LadySonelle.com then place yourself beneath My loving Hand!

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 4

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 7:20:05 PM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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I think before one is in a relationship there is simply common politeness.

It is only after getting into a relationship that this changes.

And yes, there is a double standard one might say.

Let me, once again, use myself as an example.

I expect Fox to obey; I do not obey him.

I expect him to greet me with a smile and to do whatever I tell him with a smile; that's not the case with me at all nor must I have any sort of external attitude when I interact with him.

He must get my permission to see other people and to give him time to do anything other than his job; I might consult him but he certainly doesn't tell me I can or cannot do anything.

This "double standard" is part of the Ds dynamic, in my opinion.

However, Fox also doesn't have to consider all of our work schedules and plans when he makes decisions for the family or for us -- that's my job.

He doesn't have to make the first move in a scene or sex or anything for that matter, again, that is my job (though his taking some initiative is nice).

For everything I get, I do have to give something back. They may not seem equal, heck I don't think Ds is equal, but I do believe it is compartively balanced.

But you aren't in a relationship with the person you are talking about, correct?

Given his attitude, would you want to be?

< Message edited by thetammyjo -- 12/8/2005 7:22:06 PM >

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 5

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 7:21:03 PM

ImpGrrl

Posts: 575
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Double standards do and should apply within individual d/s relationships - and rightly, happily, so.

But not between general d-types and general s-types, people who are just chatting, etc.

Heather

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 6

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 7:44:03 PM

Jasmyn

Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline

It blows my mind the number of women who grow up and want their own real life Ken to play to 'dom' to their Barbie ... yes it is entirely appropiate for a dominant to set the rules...if you want to call the shots of a relationship become the dominant...if not, then submit... it really is that black and white.

Sorry SW, it's not you, your threads just indicative of the thought processes prevalent in BDSM, especially on BDSM sites like this, who really do not understand, nor wish to seriously embrace the notion, that dominance and submission are just that...dominance and submission...because it doesn't quite fit with their fantasy of being someone's 'slave' or 'sub'..."oh what you mean I have to actually submit..so you just won't tie me up and make me your slave?"... then we get threads of people asking questions like "do I have to submit? Why can't I just be tied up? I'm not into any of that serving or been told what to do stuff." ... I'm not suggesting people should just roll over and play puppy to anyone with an authorative title, nor am I suggesting all those with titles should ask them too.

But your asking if it is fair of a dom to demand that then negate himself out from having to abide by the same rules... absolutely...it would be fair of him to dress you in a banana suit and have you dance the funky chicken if he felt like it ...

LA loved your double standard quote, agree 100% with the rest of your post.

_____________________________

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

Visit My Website

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 7

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 7:44:45 PM

servingwench80

Posts: 206
Joined: 12/3/2005
Status: offline

Obviously there will be some differences between expected behavior for a Dom and a sub. Like I said, if a Dom screws up, no one expects them to be spanked or otherwise punished for it. And rules that are agreed on between the two involved are up to them. I guess what I really didn't like, was the feeling that he expected I would be the one putting in most of the effort. Like you said, there are things that are expected of your Fox, but there are also things that are expected of you. Once those things are agreed on between me and any future Dom I might have, I don't think I'm wrong to *expect* those things. And if we can't agree on things to expect from each other, obviously it's not the best match.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 8

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 7:55:29 PM

servingwench80

Posts: 206
Joined: 12/3/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

It blows my mind the number of women who grow up and want their own real life Ken to play to 'dom' to their Barbie ... yes it is entirely appropiate for a dominant to set the rules...if you want to call the shots of a relationship become the dominant...if not, then submit... it really is that black and white.

Sorry SW, it's not you, your threads just indicative of the thought processes prevalent in BDSM, especially on BDSM sites like this, who really do not understand, nor wish to seriously embrace the notion, that dominance and submission are just that...dominance and submission...because it doesn't quite fit with their fantasy of being someone's 'slave' or 'sub'..."oh what you mean I have to actually submit..so you just won't tie me up and make me your slave?"... then we get threads of people asking questions like "do I have to submit? Why can't I just be tied up? I'm not into any of that serving or been told what to do stuff." ... I'm not suggesting people should just roll over and play puppy to anyone with an authorative title, nor am I suggesting all those with titles should ask them too.

But your asking if it is fair of a dom to demand that then negate himself out from having to abide by the same rules... absolutely...it would be fair of him to dress you in a banana suit and have you dance the funky chicken if he felt like it ...

LA loved your double standard quote, agree 100% with the rest of your post.

I have no problem with someone setting the rules. I expect that. But I consider myself submissive, not slave. Am I wrong to think I should have some input? I understand that there has to be actual submission involved here. But in the instance of the Dom I was talking about, I just got the impression of "lazy". Maybe I was just offended at some things he said so I was giving him an unreasonably hard time. But if a Dom tries to negate himself out of any rules or expectations, that just doesn't sit right with me. A Dom accepts responsibilities when they take on a sub........... don't they? Assuming that is agreed to beforehand, yada yada yada. I'm talking about a relationship where the Dom is there to teach the sub, and to help them grow. Not just a casual play relationship.

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 9

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 8:15:51 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: servingwench80
Once those things are agreed on between me and any future Dom I might have, I don't think I'm wrong to *expect* those things. And if we can't agree on things to expect from each other, obviously it's not the best match.

You are absolutely right- expectations should be fully understood and agreed upon in order for the commitment to even have a chance of working out.

And if you want the type of dom who isn't going to ask anything of you that he himself isn't willing to do, a dom who will show every step that he will do exactly the same work that you will, then you should go find that dom.

But a dom isn't being bad, wrong, or lazy, because he tells his sub to go do the laundry and then goes to a party with another chick and has a great bondage session- as long as this sort of dynamic has been understood and accepted by all parties.

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 10

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 8:20:52 PM

TallDarkAndWitty

Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn
It blows my mind the number of women who grow up and want their own real life Ken to play to 'dom' to their Barbie ... yes it is entirely appropiate for a dominant to set the rules...if you want to call the shots of a relationship become the dominant...if not, then submit... it really is that black and white.

*blows a big kiss*

Amen, sister...

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.

My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Jasmyn)

Post #: 11

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 8:39:18 PM

Sensualips

Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

Aww cmon. I want it ALL! ;)

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)

Post #: 12

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 9:09:17 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

You are absolutely right- expectations should be fully understood and agreed upon in order for the commitment to even have a chance of working out.

And if you want the type of dom who isn't going to ask anything of you that he himself isn't willing to do, a dom who will show every step that he will do exactly the same work that you will, then you should go find that dom.

But a dom isn't being bad, wrong, or lazy, because he tells his sub to go do the laundry and then goes to a party with another chick and has a great bondage session- as long as this sort of dynamic has been understood and accepted by all parties.

regarding: "expectations should be fully understood and agreed upon"

It is a fine ideal to hold but in my zillion years experience with kajillions of subbies I've found that understanding is always less than fully and agreements made in advance never manage to cover everything that life throws at you.

A good basis can be laid out, including some notions about what the hell sorts of things to try when you get to an intersection where there are no signs. And I'll bet Albatross knows this as well as anyone but was just speaking in general terms, which is fine.

Nice to see these realistic responses to the preposterous notion that D&S could exist--that the words would even have meaning--without a double standard.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 13

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 9:22:49 PM

RiotGirl

Posts: 3149
Status: offline

yes there is a double standard

yes its okay.

They are Master or Mistresss or Dom/Domme.

there's a difference. A line you do not cross. If you were Top like them, then you would be held by the same things they are.

(in reply to Noah)

Post #: 14

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 9:36:44 PM

darkslife

Posts: 43
Joined: 3/21/2004
Status: offline

In reading some of these posts - what the hell?

Courtesy goes a long way with me. If you can't return my call or answer my email promptly, thats cool, life has issues that can't be put aside. Just let me know.

Double standards are ridiculous - the submissive is still human, and thus entitled to human rights and privledges.

That being said, Ive chased enough, and rarely bother anymore.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 15

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/8/2005 9:59:25 PM

justheather

Posts: 1532
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkslife

Double standards are ridiculous - the submissive is still human, and thus entitled to human rights and privledges.

I resent that!

_____________________________

I want the scissors to be sharp
And the table perfectly level
When you cut me out of my life
And paste me in that book you always carry.
-Billy Collins

(in reply to darkslife)

Post #: 16

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 12:17:29 AM

Phoenxx

Posts: 253
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Swift Current
Status: offline

We are all equal! Bull. We all have equal gifts and opportunities. We are all different with different needs and desires. So how can A=C? It cannot, but A+B/2 can equal C squared.

Having said that, if the Dom in question is just lazy and can’t be bothered to answer back, be glad you found out now;-)

About the teachers:
The teacher analogy is a great one. Secondly, I’m not a teacher. Just wanted to clear that up.

Yes teacher are help to different standards. Does the poor little student work until the wee hours of the night marking papers and doing lesson prep? Have they spent years learning the skills necessary to teach? Nope. Teachers have to often deal with 20+ bratty big-mouthed teens that know everything and do not understand why they have to sit down, shut up and learn. And I include a teenaged Me in there LOL… I am so glad I’m past that ... most days.
Today there is far too much whinnying about people’s rights and not enough learning about responsibility. And if you think a teacher cannot get in trouble for being late too often, think again. But you do not discipline someone who has to maintain control in front of the ones they have to rule over.

Yes, a Top has responsibilities to their bottoms. They should be clearly outlined at the start of the relationship. And discussed as the relationship grows and changes. But the fact is the Top holds themselves to their own standard. And while you may not see my whipping my ass for my mistakes, trust me I do a good job of giving myself unholy hell when I screw up. When you make the rules, there is always a double standard. If as a bottom, you’re lucky and keep searching, you may find that not only is there a double standard, but also that many Tops hold themselves to a higher one then the bottom. I know several who will give a submissive a stern talking to when they mess up. And will punish them when they need it. And it’s over with. All is forgiven. But when they mess up, they catch hell, from themselves.

Is there a double standard? Yes there is. When one person is given the right to set the rules, of course there will be. If you check out what is going on with the government in Canada, you will find that one party has had millions of dollars go missing. Is anyone going to jail or is everyone involved getting fired? Not really. Most of them are running for re-election. And check this out, after serving two terms (8 years) they can retire on full pension. How many of you can do that? There are double standards all over this world.
Tony

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 17

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 12:56:59 AM

DublinSwitch

Posts: 59
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline

Personally I don't like the teacher analogy at all. How can an adult expect that another adult will 'teach' them this that and the other? I thought that was what we all went through childhood to do. Course you can learn from other people, experiences etc all through your life, but expecting to be 'taught' by one mighty Godlike dom figure is a bit of a stretch.

I don't think of 'submissives' as needing to be taught anything. They are not some sort of blank canvas for me to mold into what I want. If someone does expect this teaching from another person then I personally think they seeking some form of escape from there own responsibilities for there own actions and / or thoughts 'its a big nasty world but I am only a submissive and some Dom will tell me how to get through it'.

Frankly if a sub did nothing but what a dom told them would this not be boring as hell? Where is the room for debate, fun, conversations and all the other bits that go into making a relationship interesting?

I think that some submissives feel that this is the sort of relationship that they are seeking, however part of me says that a dominant that demands this relationship is nothing short of being a control freak. To want to control someone 'completely' is not a natural way of thinking to me, and I find it quite abhorrent, historical figures with this deep need for controlling others were rather nasty individuals.

And as for Mistress Jasmines quote '"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.' THAT I just don't bloody understand at all. Is it some sort of zennism or something? And who made submission an 'art'? Why the hell would anyone submit to ayone else if they have given up the 'desire' to do so? Or is it just too deep and meaningful for me, like trying to understand God - maybe one needs 'faith'.

Anyways, something of a rambling post, so apologies, but it is wicked early here,

Cheers

DS

(in reply to Phoenxx)

Post #: 18

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 3:29:07 AM

Chris123

Posts: 22
Joined: 11/3/2005
Status: offline

It all depends on personal preference. Personally, while I want my Domme to dehumanize me within my kink, I would never have a relationship with someone who was generally and genuinely just a rude and pig-headed person.

So if I encounter someone like that, I *don't persue a relationship with them*.

Say that last part back to me. OK I think you got it.

There is no "should". What is fair and right is only ordained by what suits your ends. Find somebody whose morals you can respect.

(in reply to DublinSwitch)

Post #: 19

RE: Double standard for Doms & subs? - 12/9/2005 3:41:03 AM

sweetpettjenny

Posts: 674
Joined: 11/7/2004
Status: offline

The Dominant makes the rules...simple as that. If we don't like His/Her rules we move on.

(in reply to servingwench80)

Post #: 20

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