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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:19:43 PM   
cloudboy


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Count me with the Americans who are "debated" out.

(in reply to TheHeretic)
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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:21:04 PM   
TheHeretic


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        If I was giving notes in the margins of the flow chart, I would have one for Barry.  Some will call it a wry smile, some will call it a smirk.  Lose it.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:22:10 PM   
DomKen


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I watched this debate on ABC rather than PBS, where I had watched the previous debates, and ABC used a split screen quite extensively which was very bad for McCain. When McCain was speaking and thought the camera was on him he was on his game and clearly was doing very well. However his behavior while Obama was speaking was troubling. It seemed dismissive and at times downright condescending. This may go down as another debate like the 1960 Kennedy Nixon debate with the perception of who won being determined by how you watched the debate.

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:22:14 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Count me with the Americans who are "debated" out.



       Count me with the junkies who want a Biden/Palin Saddleback.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to cloudboy)
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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:24:01 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


Count me with the Americans who are "debated" out.


Let`s now have the ten town halls that McCain whines over.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:24:36 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

I think this last debate was the best one of all.
I also liked this format the best.
I also liked the way Obama answered McCain about his
ties with Ayers.
Maybe that dead horse will be left alone.
I wonder who Joe is voting for?
 

There is a real Joe. Something-bacher. In Toledo, I believe.

Anyhoo, McCain's constant smirking, interrupting, and condescention turned me off.

He tried to turn the debate into a referendum on Obama by bringing the Ayers and Acorn lies up yet again.  And he KNOWS they are lies, yet he repeats them. The new Neocon spin on those, though, is that they claim people deserve to know the details of all of his associations. Well, I want to know all about McCains associations, including the VC officer in Hanoi that he talked with so often that he got the nic "Songbird". I could go on, but I've made my point.

I liked the way BHO concisely answered/refuted those lies, and then turned the debate back to issues. He did that several times (I TiVo'd it; I can count them, I suppose). (In fact, I can go back and count all McCain's lies, too)  I'm glad that he took the high road. Especially after McCain was babbling about how "tough" the campaigns were, and then turns right around and attacks BHO. What a hypocrite. But what can you expect from a man who threw his crippled wife under a bus and lived "as husband and wife" for nine months before divorcing her and marrying Cindy. I'd have more respect for him if he stuck with him.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1024927/The-wife-John-McCain-callously-left-behind.html
I still wouldn't vote for him, but I'd have more respect. Personally, I think he's a dirtbag.

I think he's an old, cynical, verbally abusive, emotionally disturbed (PTSD) man who is still trying to prove to his daddy the Admiral that he's as good as daddy was. I think his only allegiance is to himself, to his fellow ideologues, donors, and lobbyists, and I don't think he gives a flying fuck about me, my health care situation, or anything else. He just wants power. He's a tragic figure, really (that ain't pity, BTW).

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:28:42 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

The "Joe The Plumber" video - Obama says "spread the wealth". 

Let's get real here. They both want to spread the wealth. Only the direction varies. McCain wants the income gap to widen even more, and for rich people to get even richer. Obama want's to help the lower income brackets.

You think McCain's gonna give you any? Keep dreaming.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:39:23 PM   
Bethnai


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I liked the quizzical look on McCain's face when Obama stated that Plumber Joe would not receive a fine. Then the question, "You won't?"

I do not like the fact that McCain could sit there and listen to Obama state his views and then McCain would repeat his former claims as if he had not heard anything that had been said.

Edited for: I was not replying to you cloudboy. I was posting in general.



< Message edited by Bethnai -- 10/15/2008 8:40:32 PM >

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 8:54:45 PM   
Owner59


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The "I`m not George Bush" line was the show stopper.

But McCain can`t say how.He`ll have that weight around his neck,no matter what.

Plumber Joe,(who apparently has gone to bed,lol) is now a super star.lol

I liked that Obama stayed cool,while McCain sizzled.

Folks aren`t angry(we`re past the anger phase,lol),they are scared and want a calm,studied and focused man to get things done.

I recall McCain (last debate)suggesting that the answer to the economic problems was to get the smartest people gathered to come up w/ solutions.........

Oh really,....what a great idea.Get the smartest folks together,....lol.Brilliant!




< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/15/2008 8:57:02 PM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 9:15:19 PM   
TNstepsout


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Well I always think Obama wins, but I just like his style and I don't like McCains. I don't like how McCain sneers, rolls his eyes and snickers when Obama is talking. I don't like how he interrupts him and tries to talk over him. I don't like how he won't take responsibility for running a mean campaign.

I like that Obama stays cool and respectful and is always a gentleman. Don't we need someone who can represent our country with some grace and dignity and knows how to show respect to people he might not agree with or completely understand? When he disagreed with McCain, he did so by politely explaining where McCain got it wrong and relating facts. I like that sort of thing, but then I'm a "justs the facts" kind of woman.

I don't like McCain. He has beady mean eyes.

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 9:16:08 PM   
bestbabync


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oh guess what?...Joe the Plumber was contacted by a reporter.  Joe stated that, "i still believe that Senator Obama's plan is not good for my business future, but i still will not state who i plan to vote for."

CNN had a focus group.  only one member, a female business owner liked and related to the "Joe the Plumber" story. 

also "Joe the Plumber" will be a guest this saturday night on Mike Huckabee's talk show.



_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 9:16:31 PM   
MissSCD


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Obama was referring to partial birth abortion which was adopted under the Clinton administration.  It is a horrible thing.
Now, this is how stupid government can be.  
We are worried about abortion; however, my state, SC, has on the ballot on Amendment one where they want to change it to where a 14 year old girl can have sex upon her consent.
What in the hell is wrong with us?

Regards, MissSCD
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

ACORN,..... a threat to democracy?!?! A bit over stated?!

He refuted every attack made on Obama?!

The life of the mother isn`t at issue?!





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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 9:22:49 PM   
BitaTruble


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~FR~

Moderator = B (best to date but room for improvement)
Format = B

Okay, I think I'd like to end this on a positive so I'll start with the negatives.
~~~
First, Obama. He showed up about 10 mins late to the debate which gave McCain a head start. He didn't seem quite at ease as I've seen him in the past and I think part of that is because while he knew that McCain was probably going to be more aggressive, I don't think he expected it to come so quickly nor so aggressively and it threw him off balance for a bit. There were several questions in a row in which he allowed McCain the last word and I think that was a bit of a mistake.

ACORN: On the one hand he could have countered the ACORN issue a bit better, especially that $800,000 but, on the other hand I'm okay with him moving the dicussion back to the actual issues which are his strong point but it came a bit at the expense of leaving ACORN on the table as an Obama issue when he could have noted McCain's former support and keynote address at ACORN. McCain has made it pretty clear that he's going to continue to stump with his version of the truth, so, unfortunately, we'll probably still be hearing about ACORN when he, truly, could have put the issue to bed.

Okay, moving on .. like McCain, he spoke directly to Joe the Plumber .. but the problem is that Obama relates much better to the working middle class and pulling down $250,000 a year puts good old Joe into the working upper class. I don't think he's quite as comfortable talking to that kind of money with his grassroots background, so he appeared to me to squirm just a bit about Joe. I don't think it's going to be an issue as he has never courted the upper class, so it's not the slam dunk it would appear to be. He'd never get that vote anyway.

I've often said that pure, dumb luck is underestimated. In this case, Obama got the last words in. On the pro column for that dumb luck is getting to speak your piece and leaving the public with your visage as it's last memory. On the con side of that, McCain still doesn't look all that healthy, his skin is papery and that smile just sends chills down my spine so leaving that image as the last memory might have served Obama even better.

~~~~

On the negatives for McCain - He can't help his appearance but his appearance doesn't help him either. He made two major blunders and several small missteps, in my opinion including one in which the silence seemed to last for a very, very long time.

First, and the one which I'm not going to forget any time soon - when he spoke about building 55 nuclear power plants he turned and indicated Obama and stated .. "And he wants them to be safe!" as if that were some sort of kookie idea. Granted, this is a personal opinion, but yes, if we build nuclear power plants I certainly want them to be safe. I was pretty stunned when he said that. I'm sure he didn't mean it the way it sounded but, to me, it sounded really, really bad and once those words were out of his mouth, he couldn't take them back.

The other blunder (and the one which means the most to me as a woman) I thought he made was talking about abortion and actually using his hands to quote the 'health' of women on this issue. Looking right at Obama then back to the camera then to make the quote sign "Senator Obama is very concerned about the "health" of women" was quite insulting to me. Again, like that is some horrible quality to possess. To me that said a whole lot about what he really thinks of women. It's almost as if he thinks of women as an afterthought, less important. I will stipulate this is all completely my own impression but I will share that Himself got the exact same message which left us both with a WTF expression on our faces.

When I combine that with his attitude on the equal pay for equal work case which went before the Supreme court .. I didn't see a man sitting there who is in full support (or possibly any support) of women's issues and his running mate has zero record in that regard. He could have shown some compassion for the lady who had worked for so long without equal pay, but the only response we got was "The statute of limitations had run out". Had that been followed up with .. "But, of course, I support equal pay" he would have been much better served. This was a case of something which went unsaid which is not going to help him come 11/4. Obama has opened up quite a lead among women in the polls and there is nothing that McCain said tonight that's going to change that .. and, in my opinion, he actually is going to hurt himself in that regard. Big mistake. We are 55% of the voting public. It's not a good idea to dis us or piss us off.

Onwards and upwards - A little oppsy here. He asked a question to which he didn't know the answer. Lawyers know better. I guess bomber pilots don't. That was when he almost insisted that Obama speak to "Joe the Plumber" and tell him how much he would be fined for failing to provide health care to his small business employees and Obama responded with "Zero, small businesses are exempt." Opps. It was quite obvious that McCain was expecting a non answer .. not that answer.
~~~~

On the positives - Obama handled Ayers and Lewis effortlessly. While he did show up a bit late, once he got his pace going he was spot on. He didn't avoid questions and stayed to the topic on the table. He was clear, explained his ideas, looked more at the camera and spoke to 'us' rather than just the moderator. He paid very close attention whenever McCain spoke and didn't interrupt nearly as much as he did in the other debates. I think that goes to show, in a much better light for him, that he's not afraid to let his opponent speak because he's confident he'll be able to handle any questions which come his way and, he pretty much did. I loved his smile when ever he thought that McCain made a poor statement or point and he just came across as very human, genuine, likable and, ultimately, Presidential. He didn't swerve or sway although he did have one or two almost microscopic double takes, they were not nearly as apparent as McCains.  

Overall grade for Obama: A-
~~
Positives for McCain: The man took his coaching very well and this was a whole different John McCain than the one who showed up at the first two debates. He got freebies in for the first 10 mins because Obama forgot he was in a debate. He scored some great zingers, but the best hands down was "If you wanted to run against Bush, you should have run four years ago." He brought up Joe the Plumber several times and spoke directly to him a few times, I think because the average America is supposed to be able to relate to Joe the Plumber .. but, the average American isn't pulling down $250,000 a year, so I'm not sure how well that's going to really work but as far as strategy's go, when you don't have a whole lot in the kitty with which to work, you have to work with what you've got and in that regard, he did well with it.

Overall McCain score: B-

For the third time in a row, Obama takes the win.

This was the best of the debates, but without the necessary knock out punch, McCain is going to need some sort of miracle if he wants to be the next President.

See ya at the voting booth. ;)

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 9:24:08 PM   
bestbabync


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

Obama.   No question.  McCain is for what has happened to us with the financial crash.  It is almost pathetic to listen to him.  I can listen to Barack all day.  What a nice, kind man. 
McCain's eyes blink more than Richard Nixon's did.  I used to respect his military experience, but after the way he talked down to Barack, he can kiss my big white ass.  He would have to catch me to do it. 
 
Regards, MissSCD
 
Go vote. Please. 
 



i think McCain's eyes blink alot because the lights dry out his contact lenses. 

i do not think either candidate won tonight.  neither gave us a detailed plan on the economy.  both of their explanations were too broad and vague.  the economy is #one now.  neither mentioned the war in Iraq. 
i wish all the presidential candidates were allowed to debate.  

< Message edited by bestbabync -- 10/15/2008 9:26:27 PM >


_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 9:49:28 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

i wish all the presidential candidates were allowed to debate.  

As long as we're wishing, I wish Ron Paul was the Republican candidate.
 
K.
 

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 10:05:53 PM   
MissSCD


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I would have loved to have seen my girl, Hillary whip McCain's ass too.  If she had only divorced Bill.  Obama clearly won, and they can only answer the questions that the moderator askes them.

 
Regards, MissSCD


quote:

ORIGINAL: bestbabync

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

Obama.   No question.  McCain is for what has happened to us with the financial crash.  It is almost pathetic to listen to him.  I can listen to Barack all day.  What a nice, kind man. 
McCain's eyes blink more than Richard Nixon's did.  I used to respect his military experience, but after the way he talked down to Barack, he can kiss my big white ass.  He would have to catch me to do it. 
 
Regards, MissSCD
 
Go vote. Please. 
 



i think McCain's eyes blink alot because the lights dry out his contact lenses. 

i do not think either candidate won tonight.  neither gave us a detailed plan on the economy.  both of their explanations were too broad and vague.  the economy is #one now.  neither mentioned the war in Iraq. 
i wish all the presidential candidates were allowed to debate.  

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 10:19:56 PM   
corysub


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I saw a McCain that was very weak and seemed unsure which way to play it at the beginning.  So much so that i was busily sending off an email to his office, and than he started to warm up.  As far as who won....the game isn't over and we won't know for sure until November 3rd.  This election has a chance of being a "landslide" for either side, the differences between the two being so significant and defined.  Both represent change and it depends which way the "independent wind" is blowing in three weeks.

< Message edited by corysub -- 10/15/2008 10:20:47 PM >

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 10:24:37 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

The fact remains, however, and McCain called him on it, he made a promise. And then he broke it. To McCain, that's a serious matter.

It's a shame it isn't such a serious matter to McCain when it involves his own broken promises. Breaking his marriage vows to his crippled wife or repeatedly violating the Military Code of Conduct while a POW doesn't appear to count.

As for the rest of the debate, DomKen nailed the hazards of the split screen. McCain's snickering and sneering when he thought the camera was on Obama made him look like the class troublemaker who thought he was pulling a fast one. It's definitely not the image he needs to be projecting with the race so tight. It'll be very interesting to see how the numbers shift tomorrow.

~stef

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 10:59:55 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef

It's a shame it isn't such a serious matter to McCain when it involves his own broken promises. Breaking his marriage vows to his crippled wife or repeatedly violating the Military Code of Conduct while a POW doesn't appear to count.

I'm never very comfortable passing judgment on spousal issues. And at the risk of exposing my ignorance, I am not aware of McCain having been found guilty of violating the Military Code of Conduct while a POW. But I have to say, it requires taking leave of your senses to compare any human behavior occurring under the duress of a North Vietnamese POW camp with Obama's decision to "opt out" of his word and grab the money.
 
K.
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/15/2008 11:17:38 PM >

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RE: The Last Debate - 10/15/2008 11:17:47 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Obama's decision to "opt out" of his word to grab the money.
 
K.
 


I've done a bit of research on this issue and I do understand Obama's reason behind the change of heart and it has to do with the RNC money making machine. Obama doesn't take PAC money, so would be severly limited in counter-punching the 527 groups if he were limited to the GE funds provided by the feds. The DNC has never had the money raising power that the RNC is famous for so he, quite rightfully, had only one option which was to go grassroots and try to counter the 527's the only way he could .. by raising money himself instead of leaving it to the DNC. He did offer to sit down with the pubs and hash out a plan but that fell through when the first salvo with the lawyers didn't work and appeared to be a hung jury which would never come to a meeting of the minds. So, yes, he did say he would do one thing, then upon further review, choose to do another. That should be acknowledged and never excused.

I hope that pubs will acknowledge, however, that Obama is human, as is McCain, and both of them have issues of integrity which can be pointed to in this regard and without bringing up McCain's family or his service to this country. Lest it be forgotten, McCain wrote in his book that he was forced to either lie or lose in the South Carolina primary and he choose to lie. He apologized, as he apologized for accepting plane rides, expensive vacations and other perks from Keating. He's human as well. That, too, should be acknowledged. We're not dealing with saints here .. but neither are we dealing with sinners. They are both two flawed men who are doing the best they can and who I truly believe want what is best for this country. They just have different ideas of what that means and how to go about doing it.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Kirata)
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