RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (Full Version)

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rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 2:44:50 PM)

quote:

Sanity

3. The wealthy know better than government bureaucrats how to stimulate the economy. Bureaucrats will waste the majority of the money as is typical of big government, while the wealthy would expand their businesses and hire more people if they're allowed to keep their own money.



Please tell me you're joking?

We are going through what may turn out to be the greates meltdown in the history of our economy created by these "wealthy" wizards who obviously had no clue what the hell they were doing.

Either that, or they were just outright criminals.  Of course, we know that can't be the case. 

Those "wealthy" philanthropists at Tyco, Enron, WorldCom, etc. were only really trying to help us.  They were just misunderstood.  They clearly only had the welfare of their employees in mind.

Of course, we can't leave out the geniuses at AIG who conned the government out of your tax dollars and promptly used half a million of it to reward themselves with an expensive vacation.

But then we always have certain people who buy the con game, believe the propaganda, and vote against their own interests so the wealthy can become more wealthy.



Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 2:47:40 PM)


That doesn't make any sense. McCain could cut taxes and so long as he cut spending too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
McCain will have to pay for his plan to cut taxes somehow, unless you really believe that it's possible to get something for nothing.



LadyEllen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 2:52:06 PM)

How does this fly exactly?

I employ five people. I have to pay them x amount so that after they have paid their taxes, its worth them coming to work. If their tax bill is reduced, it then costs me less to employ people for them to have the same disposable income - and whats left for me to draw as wages increases too

I draw wages from the business too. I have to draw x amount so that after I have paid taxes, its worth while for me to carry the risks and responsibilities. If my tax bill is reduced, I get more disposable income. If my tax bill goes up then I draw more from the business to retain my disposable income.

If my employees' tax bills go down - leaving me more money to draw from, and my tax bill goes up - there is money available for me to increase my drawings to retain my disposable income.

It seems to me there is a reciprocal effect here?

Thing is though, if I pay little in taxes, it doesnt mean I go out and employ people with the available money, unless there's a need to do so (in which case the revenues are up to pay for them) - I keep that available money. If I pay more and my employees pay less, it makes little difference to me or them if I manage it properly. If I pay more and my employees pay less but I dont increase my drawings, then there are five consumers with more disposable income in the economy.

Redistribution is not the disaster that some might say, it seems

E



Naga -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 2:57:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Please tell me you're joking?



Please tell me YOU are joking. The meltdown we are going through is a result over regulation and governmental over control over the economy. They (politicians) tried to treat it like their personal bonsai tree instead of letting it regulate itself. They gave mouth music to the free market but tried to play god with it and failed miserably. The subprime loan was enough all by itself to crash our economy. Not only was there massive defaulting on loans, but it created an artificial higher value to the housing market that will stabilize with millions owing more than their homes are worth.

Now we have Obama talking about taking all the motivation out of the investment market. No wonder the market is crashing! He wants to tax successful investors by removing 75% of their profits. As if this is the work of intelligence and experience? His redistribution of wealth scheme will further tank our economy, if he allowed to take the presidency.

While I will agree that there is selfishness in the private sector, you will never get rid of it. You have to use it as a tool. And when you do, the entire market is successful, not just the wealthy, who I might point out are taking obscene risks when the invest their own money. When they profit, everyone profits. This is why Reagan and Bush were so successful in bring down unemployment, lowering income and capital gains taxes, inheritance taxes, etc. If Bush could only have stuck to his guns and cut spending instead rubber stamping the democrats' massive spending, he would have gone down in recent history as one of the greats.



Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 2:59:37 PM)

Government doesn't create wealth! Business does. And while your hate and anger towards business may help justify government theft in your own mind, you're forgetting that business is also employer and so your big government guru Barack Obama can't destroy business without destroying the economy and millions of jobs along with it.

Go ahead and take business down a notch (the bastards deserve it, right?) but watch foreign businesses take over in the stead of the American business that you weaken or destroy... then see where that leaves us as a country. Corporate America already has some of the highest taxes in the world...

And this current mess was brought to you by the Democrats.

Here are the "Wizards" you're looking for, for your witch hunt.



quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Please tell me you're joking?

We are going through what may turn out to be the greates meltdown in the history of our economy created by these "wealthy" wizards who obviously had no clue what the hell they were doing.

Either that, or they were just outright criminals.  Of course, we know that can't be the case. 

Those "wealthy" philanthropists at Tyco, Enron, WorldCom, etc. were only really trying to help us.  They were just misunderstood.  They clearly only had the welfare of their employees in mind.

Of course, we can't leave out the geniuses at AIG who conned the government out of your tax dollars and promptly used half a million of it to reward themselves with an expensive vacation.

But then we always have certain people who buy the con game, believe the propaganda, and vote against their own interests so the wealthy can become more wealthy.



rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 2:59:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

That was never a part of the question, Joe admitted early on in this debate that he made far less than $250,000.00

In fact, he said as much in one of the videos that I posted in this thread. What the debate is about is, when Joe does make that much, if he works his ass off to get there, what gives Obama the right to put a government boot to his throat and force Joe to hand it over so that Obama can go out and buy votes with it.


I believe your answer is in post #44 and the link provided by stef:

"Under Obama's proposal, Wurzelbacher would face about $900 more in taxes if he netted $280,000 of income from his new business, said Gerald Prante, a senior economist at the Tax Foundation, a Washington research group that is examining both candidates' plans. ``His average tax burden, the final bill he pays to the IRS isn't going to go up much if he's just making $280,000 a year,'' Prante said."


Somehow, I don't think an extra $900 on a $280,000 net income (net, not gross) is a "boot to his throat".



NuminousLeader -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:01:19 PM)

Don't you "tire" of the BS  oh wait the spin????



Naga -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:05:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

How does this fly exactly?

E


It "flies" because both your taxes and your employees taxes will go up. Obama claims he will lower taxes on the lower 40%, but what he does NOT say is that he will allow the Bush tax cuts to expire. That effectively raises taxes on everyone in your company. Next, he raises taxes on you, the small business owner, effectively leaving you less financial room to offer raises, pay benefits (which will cost more, by the way), higher new employees to allow growth, and invest in maintenance, etc.

Add to that the dollar becoming worth less (which is already happening because of the "new" money dumped into the system) and you are effectively paying them less.

Redistribution is simply a polite name for theft with the government as the weapon. It is unethical, plain wrong and hurts everyone in the long run.



maybemaybenot -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:07:44 PM)

I'm a little confused and tired, so maybe I am misreading:

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

How does this fly exactly?

I employ five people. I have to pay them x amount so that after they have paid their taxes, its worth them coming to work. If their tax bill is reduced, it then costs me less to employ people for them to have the same disposable income - and whats left for me to draw as wages increases too
 
If you are paying 5 employs XXX dollars an hour currently, their taxes get cut, then you can decrease their wages to XX, so that they have the same disposable income ? Unless you cut their wages, the tax cut would give them more disposable income. Doesn't that defeat the reason for giving a tax break to the employees?


I draw wages from the business too. I have to draw x amount so that after I have paid taxes, its worth while for me to carry the risks and responsibilities. If my tax bill is reduced, I get more disposable income. If my tax bill goes up then I draw more from the business to retain my disposable income.

If your tax bill goes up, aren't you goig to want to maintain the same income you were gettign prior to your tax hike ? Which would mean raising your prices? If you are payig more taxes and drawing more from your profits, aren't you going to be significantly decreasing your businesses revenue?

If my employees' tax bills go down - leaving me more money to draw from, and my tax bill goes up - there is money available for me to increase my drawings to retain my disposable income.

I'm puzzled how  a reduction in another persons/employees taxes give you/business owner more disposable income ? The individual pays taxes, the company does not pay the employees taxes.


E


I'm not being a smart ass LadyE, I am just not following along.



rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:09:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


That doesn't make any sense. McCain could cut taxes and so long as he cut spending too.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
McCain will have to pay for his plan to cut taxes somehow, unless you really believe that it's possible to get something for nothing.



Exactly!  It doesn't make ANY sense.

Because, other than trimming earmarks, which account for only a miniscule portion of the budget, McCain has not proposed any spending cuts.  He has, in fact, even supported certain spending increases.

Makes no sense at all. 



Lucylastic -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:15:16 PM)

This just out from AP http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jsE42Sz7s0wN-YH-Oiex5sYcbeGQD93RQSEG0
Correction: Debate Fact Check story 1 hour ago WASHINGTON (AP) — In an Oct. 15 story fact-checking the presidential candidates' debate, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that presidential candidate Barack Obama overstated the proportion of American households that would see tax cuts under his economic plan.The Democrat specified that he was talking about "working Americans," and the figure he cited — 95 percent — is essentially correct, according to the Tax Policy Center, which calculated the figures.



LadyEllen -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:15:19 PM)

MBMBN -

say I pay someone $20,000-00 and they have taxes of 25%, $5000-00 to pay on that - they are left with $15,000-00

if their tax liability falls to 10%, then I can pay them $17,000-00, they pay 10% $1700-00, and are left with $15,300-00
this is not the idea of this current proposal, but its the sort of way that evil small business owners like me think

meanwhile the business has saved 5 x $3300-00 on salary costs = $16,500-00, which is all extra for me to draw on to compensate for my increase in taxes - this doesnt reduce my revenue, though it does impact the profits of the company

whilst the company doesnt pay the employees taxes directly - it does, indirectly in the form of the initial salary

E



Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:24:21 PM)


You didn't pay attention to the debate last night then. John McCain proposed starting with an immediate freeze in all government spending increases (using  a hatchet) to which Barack Obama balked, and claimed that was going too far, and that we need a scalpel to cut spending instead.

This, right after Obama solemnly warned us all that we're in the gravest financial situation since the great depression...

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Exactly!  It doesn't make ANY sense.

Because, other than trimming earmarks, which account for only a miniscule portion of the budget, McCain has not proposed any spending cuts.  He has, in fact, even supported certain spending increases.

Makes no sense at all. 



maybemaybenot -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:26:53 PM)

Thanx Lady E !

I was pretty close. While I respect your opinion, I would be one pissed off < fill in the blank> if my employer reduced my wages if my taxes fell and and basically nullified my tax break. Of course, I would also be an ex employee. lol

                                mbmbn




Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:29:42 PM)


If 95% of us are going to get a "tax cut" under Obama, then considering the fact that 30% - 40% of us don't pay any income taxes at all, what Obama is really proposing isn't really a tax cut at all in most cases.

What he's proposing is a hand out, in exchange for votes. And once we as a nation get in the habit of voting for free money for ourselves, we as a society are certainly doomed.

At least until we come to our senses.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

This just out from AP http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jsE42Sz7s0wN-YH-Oiex5sYcbeGQD93RQSEG0
Correction: Debate Fact Check story 1 hour ago WASHINGTON (AP) — In an Oct. 15 story fact-checking the presidential candidates' debate, The Associated Press incorrectly reported that presidential candidate Barack Obama overstated the proportion of American households that would see tax cuts under his economic plan.The Democrat specified that he was talking about "working Americans," and the figure he cited — 95 percent — is essentially correct, according to the Tax Policy Center, which calculated the figures.




rulemylife -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:29:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


And this current mess was brought to you by the Democrats.

Here are the "Wizards" you're looking for, for your witch hunt.



Let me ask, have you kept track of how many times you've posted this same link?  We must be in the hundreds by now.

I told you yesterday I already had it memorized when you posted it in yet another thread.  Is there anything else you've ever read about this, or is this just your favorite?

I think the key point to look at is at the top of the article where it says OPINION in big, bold, letters. 

It's an editorial, not a factual news story, which means it is biased toward the opinions (there's that word again) of the writer.



ThatDaveGuy69 -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:31:56 PM)

In reply to Naga:
"Over regulation"?  Really?  Then I guess every news source and politician in congress, even the president, got it all wrong over the past few weeks.  They've all been telling me that it was a lack of regulation/oversight that caused the financial meltdown we're all enjoying.  And to think I beleived them...  Silly me.

In reply to Sanity:
In the end, every tax plan is a redistribution of wealth in some form.  When Regan and Bush (41 & 43) cut taxes for the top 5% and for corporations, that shifted the burden to the rest of us.  My tax dollars, as a percentage, increased over those whose got a tax cut.  I paid more (kept less) while they paid less (kept more).  Is that not a redistribution of wealth?  We've had that plan in place for 20 years (Regan: 8, Bush 41: 4, Bush 43: 8) and look where we are.  I'll settle for anything other than what we have now!  And let's face it: McCain's plan is really just more of Bush 43.  A few minor changes here and there, but essentially the same thing.

What I'd like to see is the end to all this Corporate Welfare.  Nobody ever mentions that McDonald's, Wendy's, BK, et al get a $2,000 tax benefit for every new employee they teach to push the buttons on the fry machine.  They call it Job Training(!) and it takes about 15 minutes.  REAL job training would be teaching someone to run a milling machine, or a programming language, or some other skill that doesn't require a paper hat.

To McCain's credit, he finally outed the Ethanol Myth.  It is NOT a viable alternative.  It is only affordable because of huge government subsidies.  We COULD be buying dirt-cheap ethanol from South American but NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!  Can't buy stuff from terrorist states.  Oh wait, there's that whole Suadi Arabia thing...  But I digress.

I doubt that I'll be anywhere near the $250k tax bracket in my lifetime so I really don't give a rat's behind about folks in that range.  I do know 3 people in that group: John* is a business owner worth a few million; Jane* (his ex-wife) has a couple million of Johns cash; and Mary*, who thanks to a VERY wealthy family, is worth about $80 million.  She's never worked a day in her life.  At least John re-invests in his business.  Jane and Mary do little more than shop and redecorate their homes.  They could certainly survive on a little less. 

I've been out of work for over 13 months.  I've worked since I was 15 and never needed unemployment before.  When I did, I got < 1/3 of my prior salary for 26 weeks.  Now just how the hell am I supposed to keep my house and feed my family on that?!  Redistribution of wealth?  Bring it on!

~Dave


* Not their real names




Sanity -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:32:58 PM)


I've posted it as often as you've conveniently forgotten that the Democrats are who have gotten us into the financial mess that we currently find ourselves in, and yes, I'm sure it is driving you crazy.

And though it is a "mere" opinion piece, the links that it contains are solid, as are the arguments that it makes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


And this current mess was brought to you by the Democrats.

Here are the "Wizards" you're looking for, for your witch hunt.



Let me ask, have you kept track of how many times you've posted this same link?  We must be in the hundreds by now.

I told you yesterday I already had it memorized when you posted it in yet another thread.  Is there anything else you've ever read about this, or is this just your favorite?

I think the key point to look at is at the top of the article where it says OPINION in big, bold, letters. 

It's an editorial, not a factual news story, which means it is biased toward the opinions (there's that word again) of the writer.



slvemike4u -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:34:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Naga


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Please tell me you're joking?



Please tell me YOU are joking. The meltdown we are going through is a result over regulation and governmental over control over the economy. They (politicians) tried to treat it like their personal bonsai tree instead of letting it regulate itself. They gave mouth music to the free market but tried to play god with it and failed miserably. The subprime loan was enough all by itself to crash our economy. Not only was there massive defaulting on loans, but it created an artificial higher value to the housing market that will stabilize with millions owing more than their homes are worth.

Now we have Obama talking about taking all the motivation out of the investment market. No wonder the market is crashing! He wants to tax successful investors by removing 75% of their profits. As if this is the work of intelligence and experience? His redistribution of wealth scheme will further tank our economy, if he allowed to take the presidency.

While I will agree that there is selfishness in the private sector, you will never get rid of it. You have to use it as a tool. And when you do, the entire market is successful, not just the wealthy, who I might point out are taking obscene risks when the invest their own money. When they profit, everyone profits. This is why Reagan and Bush were so successful in bring down unemployment, lowering income and capital gains taxes, inheritance taxes, etc. If Bush could only have stuck to his guns and cut spending instead rubber stamping the democrats' massive spending, he would have gone down in recent history as one of the greats.
This post in its entirety has to be a joke.The theory the market can regulate itself ha been proven false,and anyone paying any attention at all knows this....As far as obscene risks,what risks...they just got bailed out to the tune of 750 billion dollars of taxpayer money.....please tell me you are being sarcastic here..please.



kdsub -> RE: Joe The Plumber: Obama Tax Plan 'Infuriates Me' (10/16/2008 3:35:08 PM)

You just can't spend 800 billion on a war...and 700 billion on the economy... and who knows how many billion on healthcare and not raise taxes.

That’s about $11,000 per tax payer without the healthcare.

People have to realize we must pay our bills as a Nation...that means TAXES...I pay my bills…how about you.

It is stupid for McCain...and was idiot for Bush to think they could spend money like water and not raise taxes.

At least Obama understands you must raise somebody’s taxes to pay for the stupidity of the past.

Butch



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