Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency Page: <<   < prev  3 4 5 [6] 7   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 7:46:13 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Ignored fact #1 Cutting the tax rates resulted in INCREASED REVENUE to the government.
Ignored fact #2 Raising tax rates has most often resulted in DECREASED REVENUE to the government.
Ignored fact #3 Obama was directly asked if he knew fact #1 and he said yes he knew it would result in decreased revenue but that it was an issue of "fairness" not revenue.

Q: You favor an increase in the capital gains tax, saying, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton, which was 28%." It's now 15%. That's almost a doubling if you went to 28%. Bill Clinton dropped the capital gains tax to 20%, then George Bush has taken it down to 15%. And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28%, the revenues went down.A: What I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. The top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year--$29 billion for 50 individuals. Those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair.Q: But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.A: Well, that might happen or it might not. It depends on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going.

So the reason Obama states publicly and on the record for raising at least the capitol gains tax even though he knows it has historicly reduced revenue to the government is to be "fair" it has nothing to do with ballancing the budget because he knows it will actually increase the deficit as revenues drop.


(in reply to HunterS)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 7:53:02 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS



Actually it is quite simple.  The house refuses to fund the war.  H.


Then Bush invokes the Patriot Act and continues on with his war anyway.

Definition:

(b) "Catastrophic Emergency" means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions;

(e) "Enduring Constitutional Government," or "ECG," means a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President,
 
 


Implementation Actions
 
(4) Continuity requirements shall be incorporated into daily operations of all executive departments and agencies. As a result of the asymmetric threat environment, adequate warning of potential emergencies that could pose a significant risk to the homeland might not be available, and therefore all continuity planning shall be based on the assumption that no such warning will be received. Emphasis will be placed upon geographic dispersion of leadership, staff, and infrastructure in order to increase survivability and maintain uninterrupted Government Functions. Risk management principles shall be applied to ensure that appropriate operational readiness decisions are based on the probability of an attack or other incident and its consequences.
 
(c) Defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and preventing or interdicting attacks against the United States or its people, property, or interests;
 
and last

(g) Protecting and stabilizing the Nation's economy and ensuring public confidence in its financial systems;
 
In a nutshell, it doesn't matter what Congress does. As long as we are in armed conflict, the President has the legal authority to do well, pretty much whatever he wants. He didn't need Congress to sign the bailout bill, he doesn't need them to issue funds for the war - all he needs to do is point to the Patriot Act then to either Iraq or Afghanistan as proof of armed conflict and well, there ya go. Funds and authority as CIC to direct troops where ever he wants them to go.  


 
HSPD-20, part of the Patriot Act and signed off by Congress .. twice. ::sighs::

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to HunterS)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 8:05:14 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

What makes zero sense to me is why so many people, who are not the beneficiaries of the policies that have seen the wealth disparity in this country grow to historic figures, want everyone to shed tears for the plight of these poor downtrodden multi-millionaires.

I'm more concerned with our high corporate taxes, and the effect they have on jobs and prices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, success should be rewarded, but to an unlimited degree?  Should CEO compensation be greater than the average of that company's employees? ...In the United States, wealth is highly concentrated in a relatively few hands.

Given our progressive income tax system, I think you can expect that disparity to grow. It's part of the problem, in my opinion.

There are some things in which I'm probably slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan. But Americans have always proven ready to help each other when someone needs help, and I don't consider that "socialism". I would be in favor of extending the Social Security tax all the way up the income ladder, and using the fund to guarantee our seniors, who have put in forty or more long years contributing their labor and taxes to this country, a safe secure retirement instead of paying it back to people who don't need it. You don't let your granny live in a hovel and eat pet food. Fuck what anybody calls it, you just don't do that.

As for income taxes, as far as I'm concerned everybody should pay the same rate (in which case the now separate Social Security tax would just be wrapped into a single flat tax). Everybody. No exceptions. No loopholes. No shit. Any need for assistance would be based on after-tax income. That ends all the crap about some people being just "takers" while other people do all the "paying", and there would be zero penalty for working to get ahead and earn more to improve your situation.

Just my two cents.

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/21/2008 8:08:01 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 8:13:27 PM   
bestbabync


Posts: 1061
Joined: 7/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Why bother voting, if that's how you feel?


kitt
where you born in the US?

_____________________________

"A woman is the only thing I am afraid of that I know will not hurt me" Abraham Lincoln
"Choose Life, your mother did!"
www.howobamagotelected.com
http://www.lp.org/platform
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CaBR3z85c

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 8:23:52 PM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Higher corporate taxes will chase more jobs out of this country to Mexico, China and India.

(in reply to bestbabync)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 8:37:37 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Higher corporate taxes will chase more jobs out of this country to Mexico, China and India.

I agree. And we also can't keep falling back on this "tax the rich" mantra, as if we had them all locked up in a room somewhere and could do anything we want with them. We don't. And eventually they will give us the finger, which we will abundantly deserve, and go live somewhere else.
 
K.


 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/21/2008 8:49:30 PM >

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 9:01:49 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		A flat tax would put people like my daughter into the streets. Getting to deduct her dependents enables her to get a refund every year (of about $8,000 with the Earned Income Credit) and is what keeps her afloat and allows her to feed her children and put gas in her car to get to work every day. She earns $35k before taxes. Right now, she doesn't need any assistance. She gets by, barely, but she does it.

Most folks who want a flat tax feel that 15% is fair.

$35000 - 15% = $29,750 take home

$750 a month rent = $9000
$756 a month health insurance = $9072
$80 per week gasoline = $4160
$130 per month car insurance = $1560
$150 per week childcare = $7,800

Opps.. out of money and we haven't talked about food, car payments, electricity, water/sewage, telephone, school supplies, clothing, laundry etc.

Poverty level for a family her size is about $25,000 .. she just barely over so wouldn't qualify for any assitance.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 9:15:45 PM   
HunterS


Posts: 553
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline 		Celeste:
Isn't that what I said. 
Congress could, if it wished to, stop the war by repealing the patriot act and not funding the war.  They do not wish to do so as evidenced by the fact that they have twice given their blessing to the patriot act.
They all shit in the same bucket the only arguement is who has to empty it.
H.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 9:21:19 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

Celeste:
Isn't that what I said. 
Congress could, if it wished to, stop the war by repealing the patriot act and not funding the war.  They do not wish to do so as evidenced by the fact that they have twice given their blessing to the patriot act.
They all shit in the same bucket the only arguement is who has to empty it.
H.


I'm sorry, Hunter, I didn't see you say that. My apologies. I have been advocating the repeal of the Patriot Act ever since I read it the first time. (I've read it twice.) What worries me is that the Patriot Act language itself could be used to prevent it from being repealed not to mention, the president could still veto such a bill then it would have to go back to Congress to be over-ruled. Honestly, I don't think anyone in Congress (with the exception of Feingold) has actually read it because if they had .. why is it still on the books?

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to HunterS)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 9:43:31 PM   
HunterS


Posts: 553
Joined: 10/21/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Higher corporate taxes will chase more jobs out of this country to Mexico, China and India.

I agree. And we also can't keep falling back on this "tax the rich" mantra, as if we had them all locked up in a room somewhere and could do anything we want with them. We don't. And eventually they will give us the finger, which we will abundantly deserve, and go live somewhere else.
 
K.


 


Why can't we tax the rich?  They are the ones with the money.  Who do you want to tax,Celest's daughter?  You talk about the problems some CEO might face like loosing his multi-million dollar home if you cut his pay by 90%.  Don't tell me a man cant live on a half million dollars a year.  Does he need more air,food,clothing,housing or sex than one of his workers who,like Celest's daughter makes thirty something a year.  Give it a rest.  I am upfed and sick of hearing how some white shoe hustler is worth what he gets paid.  How much did they give that looser Nardelli from Home Depot that they fired for being incompetent?  Something in the range of $250,000,000.  What do they give you at Micky D's when they fire you.
The only reason jobs will leave the country and go to countries with "slave labor wages" is because the government is in the hip pocket of big business.  If they manufacture offshore then tax the import until it is the same price as domestically made then domestic workers will have a job and the ability to pay for domestically produced product.
H.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 10:22:34 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Ignored fact #1 Cutting the tax rates resulted in INCREASED REVENUE to the government.
Ignored fact #2 Raising tax rates has most often resulted in DECREASED REVENUE to the government.
Ignored fact #3 Obama was directly asked if he knew fact #1 and he said yes he knew it would result in decreased revenue but that it was an issue of "fairness" not revenue.

Q: You favor an increase in the capital gains tax, saying, "I certainly would not go above what existed under Bill Clinton, which was 28%." It's now 15%. That's almost a doubling if you went to 28%. Bill Clinton dropped the capital gains tax to 20%, then George Bush has taken it down to 15%. And in each instance, when the rate dropped, revenues from the tax increased. And in the 1980s, when the tax was increased to 28%, the revenues went down.A: What I've said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness. The top 50 hedge fund managers made $29 billion last year--$29 billion for 50 individuals. Those who are able to work the stock market and amass huge fortunes on capital gains are paying a lower tax rate than their secretaries. That's not fair.Q: But history shows that when you drop the capital gains tax, the revenues go up.A: Well, that might happen or it might not. It depends on what's happening on Wall Street and how business is going.

So the reason Obama states publicly and on the record for raising at least the capitol gains tax even though he knows it has historicly reduced revenue to the government is to be "fair" it has nothing to do with ballancing the budget because he knows it will actually increase the deficit as revenues drop.

I'll take this on...

#1 A reduction in capital gains tax brings in more revenue for ONE YEAR...then revenue goes back down because the first year is almost exactly like the redeeming of a coupon. Once redeemed then it is over a year or more before any more 'long term' capital gains is realized irrespective of the tax rate. This to me is NOT long term capital gains. One year is speculation and gives the speculator with profits a lower tax first year and he sells and gets out. Most do...after that, revenues from capital gains has fewer filers and revenue goes down. Once down deficit spending sets in.

#2 Raising taxes on wages, salaries and tips over the short term, revenues may or may not go down as that depends on overall employment. Over the long term meaning 2nd year on...revenues go up. When Clinton raised the top rate to 38% it was during the dot.com craze and along with many high salaries there plus the computer techs hired for the Y2K problem...was a virtual windfall in revenue resulting in 3 consecutive balanced budgets 2 of them surpluses. My brother made $100K for two years and took home $65K each year with  $5K refund because at that rate they overwithhold even with 2 dependents.

#3 It doesn't matter what Obama knows...it only matters what the bankers think and want. The same for McCapital as he is one of the gang...believing middle class is a kool $5 mill per. Probably less than 1% of people in the entire world...make $5 mill a year...maybe not. There are several THOUSAND new BILLIONAIRES since 2000 some 300 in China alone...communists no less. What a joke...they are the role models of capitalist fascists.

Capital gains is NOT JUST buying low and selling high. Far too often the discussion doesn't look deep enough. There are long term and short term capital gains. What is needed is something like 50% for selling in less than 3 years...i.e...short term. Say 35% after 5 years. 15% for everything after 5 years which is a REAL investment and not speculation.

BTW, Obama wants eliminate capital gains tax on START UPS. BRILLIANT...because those create jobs. That's when selling stock results in debt free capital to do what...? To hire new employess as it starts up. I say 2 to 4 million jobs in 1-2 years on that alone. This isn't IPO's that hit the street. This is for private stock corporations which is what most start ups are when they...start up.

Google and Yahoo were private stock corporations for years before they went public.

We eliminate the income tax altogether except for a top rate of say...20% and ONLY because we have debt to pay. The goal is to have a minimum income tax...a tax on production.

We should reduce corp and all business profit taxes to the same 20%.

We should have a business gross receipts tax and a national sales tax. Both could be set at 10 or 15%.

Soon we are taxing consumption and short term capital gains only and can eliminate the rest.

Two thing happen as never before in history. 1) The largest economy in the world with the smallest income tax and 2) the largest economy in the world with the lowest busniess tax.

RESULT: The USA becomes a business magnet. No, not for making t-shirts and toys but for our technology and technical expertise our quality (Americans make the best Japanese truck for crying out loud) AND why...because of our work ethic and in all respects.

We again become the engine of world economy. We again create a surplus in trade and in finance. Any questions ?

< Message edited by MrRodgers -- 10/21/2008 10:39:47 PM >

(in reply to Archer)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 10:30:30 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Higher corporate taxes will chase more jobs out of this country to Mexico, China and India.

I agree. And we also can't keep falling back on this "tax the rich" mantra, as if we had them all locked up in a room somewhere and could do anything we want with them. We don't. And eventually they will give us the finger, which we will abundantly deserve, and go live somewhere else.
 
K. 


Why can't we tax the rich?  They are the ones with the money.  Who do you want to tax,Celest's daughter?  You talk about the problems some CEO might face like loosing his multi-million dollar home if you cut his pay by 90%.  Don't tell me a man cant live on a half million dollars a year.  Does he need more air,food,clothing,housing or sex than one of his workers who,like Celest's daughter makes thirty something a year.  Give it a rest.  I am upfed and sick of hearing how some white shoe hustler is worth what he gets paid.  How much did they give that looser Nardelli from Home Depot that they fired for being incompetent?  Something in the range of $250,000,000.  What do they give you at Micky D's when they fire you.
The only reason jobs will leave the country and go to countries with "slave labor wages" is because the government is in the hip pocket of big business.  If they manufacture offshore then tax the import until it is the same price as domestically made then domestic workers will have a job and the ability to pay for domestically produced product.
H.

Celest's daughter has no choice...she WILL be taxed. Read...look at ALL the facts.

The reason businesses move jobs to the Asian fascists gulags is to save money, make more profits...period. Our jobs are in technical expertise or we are shining shoes.

Tariffs are a matter of preference and the influence of money and are to protect profits...not jobs or income.

Almost nobody in top corp. management is worth what they are paid and are just raping the investors and stock holders. Some social philosophers will tell you that the renumeration at the top in corp. America...is immoral. Some will add celebrities in sports and TV.

(in reply to HunterS)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 10:30:46 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Higher corporate taxes will chase more jobs out of this country to Mexico, China and India.

I agree. And we also can't keep falling back on this "tax the rich" mantra, as if we had them all locked up in a room somewhere and could do anything we want with them. We don't. And eventually they will give us the finger, which we will abundantly deserve, and go live somewhere else.
 
K.


 


Why can't we tax the rich?  They are the ones with the money.  Who do you want to tax,Celest's daughter?  You talk about the problems some CEO might face like loosing his multi-million dollar home if you cut his pay by 90%.  Don't tell me a man cant live on a half million dollars a year.  Does he need more air,food,clothing,housing or sex than one of his workers who,like Celest's daughter makes thirty something a year.  Give it a rest.  I am upfed and sick of hearing how some white shoe hustler is worth what he gets paid.  How much did they give that looser Nardelli from Home Depot that they fired for being incompetent?  Something in the range of $250,000,000.  What do they give you at Micky D's when they fire you.
The only reason jobs will leave the country and go to countries with "slave labor wages" is because the government is in the hip pocket of big business.  If they manufacture offshore then tax the import until it is the same price as domestically made then domestic workers will have a job and the ability to pay for domestically produced product.
H.



Sorry there skippy, but Kirtara and Irish Knight are right. If you were a huge company would you pay higher taxes here, or no taxes in some 3rd world hell hole with no taxes? And I agree CEO's make too much money for doing nothing, but same applies, they can always say the hell with it and move somewhere else with little to no income tax. The world isn't fair, and it sucks.


_____________________________

when all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like nails

“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

Genghis Khan

(in reply to HunterS)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/21/2008 10:44:00 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

A flat tax would put people like my daughter into the streets. Getting to deduct her dependents....
 
I'm not talking about "the" Flat Tax. I'm talking about a flat tax rate. To my thinking, a fair tax system should only tax profits. It doesn't sound like your daughter has much of any. Point is, those who do should all pay the same tax rate on their gains. Taking the number you cite (assume for argument sake it's a fair estimate) she would only pay tax on any gains over $25,000. The rate would surely be more than 15%, but a fair system should not tax (and thereby threaten) a citizen's survival.
 
K.
 
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/21/2008 10:49:00 PM >

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/22/2008 6:40:30 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Higher corporate taxes will chase more jobs out of this country to Mexico, China and India.


What would the Obama proposal to give tax cuts to businesses who make jobs in the USA do?

Or have folks forgotten that is part of his economic plan?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Irishknight)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/22/2008 6:50:57 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Exactly.


Write the tax code to benefit businesses that create jobs here.

The tax code (as written today)actually encourages businesses to move offshore.

Mr. Obama recognizes this,has spoken to this(I`ve heard him) and will do something about it.

In other words,Obama is pro-America,pro-American and pro-American job. 

 Ignored fact # 4 -  Clinton raised taxes on the top 5% and we had 28-30 straight quarters of strong growth(that kept up with world competition).

Ignored fact # 5 -Ignored fact # 4 debunks/trumps ignored facts numbers 1,2 and 3.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 10/22/2008 7:07:41 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/22/2008 10:10:17 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		well Mr Rodgers,

maybe the time has come to null and void non-human entities that live forever as a legal personhood?

how many corporate charters has the goverment, state or fed, revoked for 2007?

and why is that number so low?

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/22/2008 10:13:39 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

quote:

ORIGINAL: HunterS



Actually it is quite simple.  The house refuses to fund the war.  H.


Then Bush invokes the Patriot Act and continues on with his war anyway.

Definition:

(b) "Catastrophic Emergency" means any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy, or government functions;

(e) "Enduring Constitutional Government," or "ECG," means a cooperative effort among the executive, legislative, and judicial branches of the Federal Government, coordinated by the President,
 
 


Implementation Actions
 
(4) Continuity requirements shall be incorporated into daily operations of all executive departments and agencies. As a result of the asymmetric threat environment, adequate warning of potential emergencies that could pose a significant risk to the homeland might not be available, and therefore all continuity planning shall be based on the assumption that no such warning will be received. Emphasis will be placed upon geographic dispersion of leadership, staff, and infrastructure in order to increase survivability and maintain uninterrupted Government Functions. Risk management principles shall be applied to ensure that appropriate operational readiness decisions are based on the probability of an attack or other incident and its consequences.
 
(c) Defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic, and preventing or interdicting attacks against the United States or its people, property, or interests;
 
and last

(g) Protecting and stabilizing the Nation's economy and ensuring public confidence in its financial systems;
 
In a nutshell, it doesn't matter what Congress does. As long as we are in armed conflict, the President has the legal authority to do well, pretty much whatever he wants. He didn't need Congress to sign the bailout bill, he doesn't need them to issue funds for the war - all he needs to do is point to the Patriot Act then to either Iraq or Afghanistan as proof of armed conflict and well, there ya go. Funds and authority as CIC to direct troops where ever he wants them to go.  


 
HSPD-20, part of the Patriot Act and signed off by Congress .. twice. ::sighs::


Bita, I am very concerned about that.

These iron fisted, dictator powers and not good. there is no checks or balances.  supposedly we left England to have governance with check and balance- with the PEOPLE being represented.

Every turn, I see the people being anything but represented.

The peril lies not so much with bush but what presidents of the future will do.  When someone says "trust me",  I dont.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/22/2008 2:02:11 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/police-prepare-for-unrest-2008-10-21.html

here is the blurb on unrest-  someone asked.

(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wi... - 10/22/2008 2:29:32 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Bita, I am very concerned about that.

These iron fisted, dictator powers and not good. there is no checks or balances.  supposedly we left England to have governance with check and balance- with the PEOPLE being represented.

Every turn, I see the people being anything but represented.

The peril lies not so much with bush but what presidents of the future will do.  When someone says "trust me",  I dont.



I'm concerned, too, and I'm just not getting why people aren't up in arms over this issue. The Patriot Act is about as far from patriot as one can get. It has stolen rights and instilled powers above and beyond what our Constitution ever allowed for the executive branch. The fact that Bush okay'd it with exclusionary signatories just makes it that much worse. Those signatories are worse than the bill because, basically, he said that he'll follow all the provisions in the bill which limit his power as executive unless he determines he doesn't have to do so. The totality of criteria those 'determinations' would include are not provided but 'armed conflict in any location' is one of them .. and as we all know, we are, at this moment, in armed conflict. If Bush determined that the situation warrented suspending elections, declaring martial law or even failing to turn over the Presidency on 1/20/09, he could do so under the Patriot Act.

I'm not saying this would happen, and I certainly don't want to be a Chicken Little. I just think people should take the time and read it for themselves. If it turns out they're cool with it, that's fine. If, however, they aren't then I would hope they would start writing letters to their reps and demand action. I have no doubt that there is a file on me .. somewhere and maybe several places because I'm not cool with it and I have made my opposition quite clear to several powers that be and I encourage others to do the same.  

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to pahunkboy)
Profile   Post #: 120
Page:   <<   < prev  3 4 5 [6] 7   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: projected increase in our taxes if Senator Obama wins the presidency Page: <<   < prev  3 4 5 [6] 7   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109