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RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 2:34:45 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Just offhand, how much oil do you figure our soldiers are smuggling out of the Middle East in their little canteens there, julia?

Or Afghanistan...

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I was thinking more of how there is genocide in Darfur, but that isn't our problem... I suppose that the lack of oil in Sudan makes those human rights abuses less egregious than those of Saddam...

Sanity,I must admit to being confused...who here,least of all Julia made reference to soldiers smuggling oil...isn't that what Haliburton and Big Oil is there for?

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 10/22/2008 2:37:04 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 2:41:35 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Merc a couple of low level assholes is not my idea of the people responsible being brought to justice...though it may be yours...it's not by any stretch of the imagination mine...thank you very much for your thoughtful response.

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 10/22/2008 2:42:26 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 2:42:39 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726

I hand it to you, Mercnbeth - this is right on. You said what I would have said if I were more articulate. Few people outside of the chicago area, and even many in it, simply have no idea of the real agenda of the person they are supporting, and have a closed mind to the facts.


It is easy to be as articulate as merc, just plagiarize a McCain stump speech (or at the very least paraphrase from one). Every talking point he had from Obama as "Messiah" to Obama as "socialist" came from a McCain ad

Wrong I've never even read a McCain ad and do NOT support him nor will be voting for him in two weeks. However, rationalize that as the source for my opinion if it make you feel warm and fuzzy, you obviously need the comfort, and lack the ability to provide any meaningful response.

Again I'll ask, if these are only talking points by anyone why is it so difficult for you to respond with information to the contrary versus rhetoric? Is it beyond you, or simply not possible with the position you support to provide a contrary point?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 2:54:32 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: corysub

If I have offended anyone personally here



I am absolutely disgusted by the cynicism, sarcasm and assorted smart-arsed remarks. It's outrageous.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 2:55:30 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Merc a couple of low level assholes is not my idea of the people responsible being brought to justice...though it may be yours...it's not by any stretch of the imagination mine...thank you very much for your thoughtful response.
You're welcome - anytime.

Who should be responsible? The entire chain of command including the President? Are you consistent in that idea and want to see it applied throughout the legal system? Say for instance you ordered your adult child not to drink and drive and he/she does and kills someone - should the parent share his/her cell?  

The soldiers involved were assigned to GUARD the prisoners not make them into a human pyramid. They did so on their own volition, and were treated to the consequence. Consequence for actions seems to be missing from the Obama campaign. Fail to make mortgage loans properly - there is no consequence but to have your business 'bailed out'; Obama supported the imitative. Look at those who designed their own failure by buying a house they couldn't afford. They don't want the consequence either for their lack of planning - ALL must be in support of  a man who wants to give entitlements to every form of personal failure. 

The problem is someday there will be no successes left to pay the taxes to continue to reward failure. Electing Obama will expedite the process. 

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:07:15 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
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From: United States
Status: offline 		Merc,you keep beating that same drum.Let me ask you something do you really believe the failure of some homeowners to make their mortgage payments,brought down the whole system.Or was it in fact the greed and culpability of Wall Street and their derivitives,which no les than Warren Buffett termed financial WMD played a much larger role.
As to Abu Ghraib...yes in fact I do believe those charges needed to go further up the chain of command,when those in power put in place the,and set in motion a systematic failure of morality and disregard for the humanity of others....pyramids are a foregone conclusion....Harry S.Truman said the buck stops here....when discretionary orders come from the top to engage in "softening-up" and those supposed to be in charge turn a blind eye and wink at the break-down of discipline...yes I do believe the top of the food chain must answer
Hope thats been helpful

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:12:41 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


Where is the response to how the bill will be paid? Where is the reasoning that businesses punished for their success by higher taxes and forced to pay for the failure of others will be motivated to grow their business and hire more people? Where is your argument that restricting and having government determine what you can hear on the radio advances freedom? No - better instead to point a finger and accuse plagiarism.



Have you ever heard the phrase "less is more"?

How about "short and simple"?

It is difficult to read posts that ramble off into twenty different topics, much less address them all.

Just in your short paragraph above you are addressing three different, unrelated topics.

Unless that's the plan, throw enough against the wall and something will stick.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:14:51 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Julia, apparently you use press releases and need to associate me with the practice.

So let me see, you came up with Obama as a "messiah-like" figure all on your very lonesome....it is just independent innovation if you will. And calling Obama a socialist... I suppose you live under a rock, don't read the news or watch it for that matter... um, okay then.

quote:

Tell your 'daddy' that I pointed to this previously as not only socialist but rewarding failure. It is good to see you acknowledge that fact and you and 'daddy' accept that President Bush, established course of action will be followed under Obama


I have no problem with some socialism... never have. It is funny though that so-called anti socialists are the most socialist of all (speaking of your president, Bush)

And um, why put "daddy" in quotation marks.... I suppose you are beth's "master"



_____________________________

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Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
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RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:20:11 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have no problem with some socialism... never have. It is funny though that so-called anti socialists are the most socialist of all (speaking of your president, Bush)


who is YOUR president?


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:25:23 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have no problem with some socialism... never have. It is funny though that so-called anti socialists are the most socialist of all (speaking of your president, Bush)


who is YOUR president?




Al Gore, although he was ripped off and never was able to serve as a result of voting theft, scrubbing the voter roles by Choice Point... etc. And because all of the votes were not counted.

I do not think of Dubya as my president... his father was (unfortunately), but him... nope

Edited to add, I think of GW as a war criminal

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 10/22/2008 3:26:16 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:29:02 PM   
philosophy


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Status: offline 		...ok Merc, rewarding failure is wrong, fair enough......i appreciate your feelings on that matter. Don't entirely agree, but i do understand where you're coming from. However i am having a hard time with the meta-philosophy behind your position. Right now, there are upwards of 16 million UM's in the US without health insurance. That is a clear failure of some sort. Whether it's a failure of the system or parents or healthcare providers......it's a failure. How does one address that issue without, in your terms, rewarding failure? Or is it something we should not care about?
You seem to favour a system that removes all possible barriers to the creation of wealth...(which includes things like minimum wage, health and safety, pollution controls).....presumably relying on some sort of trickledown for the poor schlepps who don't own businesses. Have i read you wrong?

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RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:33:26 PM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I have no problem with some socialism... never have. It is funny though that so-called anti socialists are the most socialist of all (speaking of your president, Bush)


who is YOUR president?




Al Gore, although he was ripped off and never was able to serve as a result of voting theft, scrubbing the voter roles by Choice Point... etc. And because all of the votes were not counted.

I do not think of Dubya as my president... his father was (unfortunately), but him... nope

Edited to add, I think of GW as a war criminal

i hate to tell you...but if you are an American..George Bush is your president as well as everyone elses. Saying Al Gore is your president makes you sound like you are detached from reality.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:39:17 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Merc,you keep beating that same drum.Let me ask you something do you really believe the failure of some homeowners to make their mortgage payments,brought down the whole system.Or was it in fact the greed and culpability of Wall Street and their derivitives,which no les than Warren Buffett termed financial WMD played a much larger role.
I believe both and don't think that represents a contradictory position. However it was enabled by Congressional oversite and 'good intent' policies; per Senator Frank, "Everyone should own a home." Oh well - almost everyone did and this is the result.

I won't even add any personal opinion on the cause/effect. However I do strongly believe that both failures should be allowed to fail and not set the precedent of rewarding people who made the wrong decisions in their lives or in their businesses.

quote:

As to Abu Ghraib...yes in fact I do believe those charges needed to go further up the chain of command,when those in power put in place the,and set in motion a systematic failure of morality and disregard for the humanity of others....pyramids are a foregone conclusion....Harry S.Truman said the buck stops here....when discretionary orders come from the top to engage in "softening-up" and those supposed to be in charge turn a blind eye and wink at the break-down of discipline...yes I do believe the top of the food chain must answer
Hope thats been helpful
My question wasn't addressed - where does it end and do you subscribe to it across the board throughout all political and personal situations? Should members of Congress also be prosecuted since they voted to fund the war which resulted in the Abu Ghraib? Without their vote, 5 votes I believe in total to date, there are no funds and Abu Ghraib not only doens't happen, but it doesn't exist.

Mike, I have no problem with accountability, if anything I think there should be much more, Corporate AND individual. My problem is in selective accountability and selective enforcement. Worse is selective attention. For example, where was the focus on equal access when it was believed 'Air America' would be the answer to 'right wing' talk radio? Why is it that the vote of the people is all important unless/until a liberal or left wing issue suffers such as is the case of same sex marriage in CA. It was voted down by the people of CA but a activist court overruled and once again it is on the ballot. I happen to support the concept of any people getting married, but that doesn't stop me from seeing the hypocrisy.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
It is difficult to read posts that ramble off into twenty different topics, much less address them all.
It must be DAMN difficult to even address one-huh?

Since you are having difficulty in doing so - I'll pick one. Where is the reasoning that businesses and small business owners punished for their success by higher taxes and forced to pay for the failure of others will be motivated to grow their business and hire more people?

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:41:45 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

i hate to tell you...but if you are an American..George Bush is your president as well as everyone elses. Saying Al Gore is your president makes you sound like you are detached from reality.


I hate to tell you, your opinion about my connection to reality matters about as much to me as George Bush does.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 3:49:08 PM   
sirsholly


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From: Quietville
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

i hate to tell you...but if you are an American..George Bush is your president as well as everyone elses. Saying Al Gore is your president makes you sound like you are detached from reality.


I hate to tell you, your opinion about my connection to reality matters about as much to me as George Bush does.


You have made a few good points in the past, but your air of superiority negates my taking you seriously.
And i do realize that my statement means as much to you as YOUR president does. Please realize i do not care.


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RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 4:06:57 PM   
Irishknight


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Status: offline 		Holly, those who still deny the outcome of the election cannot be swayed.  However it happened, Gore lost.  That is the plain and simple truth of it.  He has never and likely will never be president of the US except in delusions.

It is kind of like those who deny the Holocaust or the moon landing.  No amount of evidence will persuade them.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 4:08:35 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
So let me see, you came up with Obama as a "messiah-like" figure all on your very lonesome....it is just independent innovation if you will. And calling Obama a socialist... I suppose you live under a rock, don't read the news or watch it for that matter... um, okay then.
Actually I reference many as a messiah. Gore is the 'messiah' of global warming. However in this instance with Obama, I was reverencing a tee shirt being sold and worn by his supporters. I thought I'd be indulgent and use the same reference, never claiming that was mine. I guess that one word is worthy of you hanging the rest of the post as plagiaristic? In that case should it be pointed out that 'Julia of Oceania' plagiarizes Orwell?

The reference to Obama as a socialist is pragmatic. Anyone who takes him for his word and compares his principles to socialism can see the association clearly. Whether he personally identifies himself, or you, as socialist doesn't change the factual similarity of the definition. Obviously I'm not in minority in that belief, but again claimed no exclusivity to assigning the label to him. Just as obvious, based upon the quote below, is you not having a problem with it or even disagree. You have 'no problem'. Well - I do, it doesn't work and is contrary to human behavior.

quote:

I have no problem with some socialism... never have. It is funny though that so-called anti socialists are the most socialist of all (speaking of your president, Bush)
None of that address anything I posted, but okay, I guess. And regardless of the dreamworld you chose to exist Bush IS the President. Reality is something you should try.

quote:

And um, why put "daddy" in quotation marks.... I suppose you are beth's "master"
They weren't quotes they are brackets to connote a name reference as opposed to a statement of fact - he isn't your 'daddy' anymore than he's mine. And yes - I am beth's 'master' - no problem with that with similar connotations. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Right now, there are upward of 16 million UM's in the US without health insurance.
Philo, it depends on your focus. True there are millions of people both UM's and adults without insurance, but nobody in the US has treatment withheld. In may ways, the care is similar to the UK, if you are sick and don't have coverage you wait - sometimes for an interminable period to be seen and get treatment. Visit any hospital emergency ward and you can witness it happening first hand.

Is there a better way - of course. However the existing PAC voting blocks funded by the Lawyers and Doctors will never let them see the light of day. You are identifying a failure of funded and serving special interests.

quote:

You seem to favor a system that removes all possible barriers to the creation of wealth
You'll have to point to where I made that representation. What I support is equal access to obtaining wealth. Remember the 'tax the corporations' thread? Not one method was given on how to do so, except the one I proposed - tax purchase. Tax everyone at the consumption level and the playing field is leveled for all. I'll pay more because I buy more. I may even be encourage to save - although I doubt it. Establish a per person minimum annual wage and it serves not only to give those at the lower end of the earnings a benefit, but it keeps the bureaucrats working for the IRS employed. The trouble is it can't be done without collapsing the US RE market even further because its still driven by the fact that no matter how much I make 100% of my interest is tax deductible. Without that motivation, housing prices would deflate even further and homeownership would not be as desirable.

My atheistic nature prohibits me from joining the religion of 'Global Warming' however I don't support sacrificing the planet for the advancement of wealth. There is a middle ground that won't sacrifice either.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 10/22/2008 4:16:15 PM >

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RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 5:15:42 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
It is difficult to read posts that ramble off into twenty different topics, much less address them all.

Just in your short paragraph above you are addressing three different, unrelated topics.

Unless that's the plan, throw enough against the wall and something will stick.


It is the plan.


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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 5:33:25 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy
Right now, there are upward of 16 million UM's in the US without health insurance.
Philo, it depends on your focus. True there are millions of people both UM's and adults without insurance, but nobody in the US has treatment withheld.


........acute care maybe. However, all the rest of a health care system is missing. It's simply not enough to just stabilise someone after an accident. There's physio and other therapies. Are you saying they're available for those without insurance throughout the USA?


quote:

quote:

You seem to favor a system that removes all possible barriers to the creation of wealth
You'll have to point to where I made that representation. What I support is equal access to obtaining wealth.


......we don't disagree here. i'd point out that i didn't say you did feel that way, i said it seemed so. Then i asked if my perception was correct. Regulations can provide a level playing field. They're the same for everyone. So i still don't see why you appear to equate regulation with socialism.

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RE: An apology, if I might... - 10/22/2008 5:43:06 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
It is difficult to read posts that ramble off into twenty different topics, much less address them all.
It must be DAMN difficult to even address one-huh?

Since you are having difficulty in doing so - I'll pick one. Where is the reasoning that businesses and small business owners punished for their success by higher taxes and forced to pay for the failure of others will be motivated to grow their business and hire more people?



And you even picked one of my favorites.  How thoughtful!

Of course, even in trying to pick one you are addressing two seperate issues, taxes and where those taxes go.

I choose door #1.

How would small business be punished?  Under Obama's tax proposal eighty-five percent of small businesses would fall underneath the $250K cap where there would be a tax increase. 

As for the remaining 15%, a 250K net yearly income is a pretty substantial amount.  We've had the party of "fiscal responsibility" run up a huge tab in the last eight years, including doubling the national debt.  Where should that burden lie?  The fact is we've run up a debt that must be paid and cutting spending alone will not do it.  Is it fairer to raise taxes across the board, increasing taxes on those who can ill-afford it, or to tax those who already have a great deal of discretionary income?


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Profile   Post #: 60
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