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RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 7:31:50 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: antipode

Mate? Ah, Oz... If I appear rough on the female gender, it is because I have no experience with male subs and slaves.

Your just calling it as you see it mate and no one can complain about than. That's why most blokes can sort things out over a can or 12 of iced Fosters and a BBQ without the necessity of having a blue (Aussie for barney or a bout of fisticuffs) about it.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to antipode)

Post #: 61

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 7:55:40 AM

MasterIan2u

Posts: 3
Joined: 7/10/2007
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O M G....i was going to write something but i have to say that John and leadership seemed to have it said in a nut shell.i have tried the popy thng a few times but with not much luck.the energy all people have to put into it just makes it harder.now i find that its much better to have play partners come over for the night,week-end or even go on holidays for a few weeks.who all remain as friends. good luck...........but if it's not for you,then it's not

M.I.

(in reply to AMaster)

Post #: 62

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 7:58:43 AM

DavanKael

Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
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MI--
You may be surprised to know that what you describe is at one end of the spectrum of what some call poly. :>
The issue with this post is that there seems to have been a prenegotiation that she agreed to and wants to recall.
Davan

(in reply to MasterIan2u)

Post #: 63

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 8:07:43 AM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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You can't control what you want and don't want, so it's inappropriate to ask whether it's fair. (It would be like asking whether it's fair to want an ice cream sundae.) And, in any case, a master/slave relationship is not fair. Fairness isn't even one of the principles on which it's built. A slave's "position" is the position that her master assigns her. Either you accept it or you don't--in which case you're no longer your master's slave.

BDSM is bittersweet.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sorrynobsownsme

Is it fair for a slave to not want a sister slave?

(in reply to sorrynobsownsme)

Post #: 64

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 9:34:01 AM

DavanKael

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The OP contacted me off-thread and stated that the person who said she was the same person who had posted elsewhere about a threesome with the rules that had been broken by the Master was in error; that that was not her. I asked if she was okay with me asserting this on-thread and she said that she was (Although, if it was me an erroneous statement was attributed to, I'd be standing up myself and saying so; each unto their own). So, disregard my comments about the threesome but, as I told her, I am also firmly asserting that everything else I said before and after stands as written.
Honor is honor; she went into the situation knowing there would be others. Having an emotional reaction doesn't absolve her from her responsibilities; it gives she and her Master the opportunity for growth be it together or apart.
Davan

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 65

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 10:36:35 AM

NihilusZero

Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

...It is a dishonor, though. And, in a relationship where honoring the one you're with and holding up to the vows you made (which, unless more information surfaces as I read more through the thread, included the awareness of the inclusion of a sister), violating those vows because you didn't put enough forethought into what it would take to accept an M/s relationship (of all things!) is as close to sacrilege as you can get.

Hmmm. I have a couple of thoughts regarding this. One is: is all the onus upon her? It does take two to tango. I would imagine that her master can't be *too* shocked at these developments, can he?
If she rushed into something, in a way, hasn't he as well?

I personally always try to lay out as much of the groundwork as possible beforehand and take steps to ensure the devotion of the sub/slave, but one of the hardest things to differentiate is an s-type being sure (s)he wishes to follow X because it's what she needs/wants/desires and an s-type who convinces him/herself of such out of a desires to please the D-type first. the difference in the mentality may be subtle, but the results (and how potential resentment gets divvied up by the sub during potential problems) can be great.

It's on each individual to be responsible for understanding themselves. While I would say that it's the D's job to be more attentive to not just him/herself but also to the s-type, it is the sub/slave who has a more thorough responsibility to themselves to know themselves well so they can surrender to a situation that is what they actually seek.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

But, beyond that, I do think it's just true that you can't always imagine ahead of time what something is going to be like further down the road, no matter how much deliberation you give it beforehand. Sometimes you can't know for sure and you just say "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" (or not, as the case may be.)

Then the entirety of the realm vows and promises becomes null. At very least, if the fear of needing an escape hatch that is not laid out in hard limits before hand outweighs the desire to honor the vows one makes, one probably shouldn't be stepping into devoted D/s dynamics in the first place...and definitely not M/s ones.

_____________________________

"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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CM Sex God du Jour
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(in reply to Jeptha)

Post #: 66

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 11:15:44 AM

SailingBum

Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Sailing Bum may not say it gently but he's said something that strikes me as valid over and over again on this thread.

100% agreement with Nihilus Zero when he said this:
It is a dishonor, though. And, in a relationship where honoring the one you're with and holding up to the vows you made (which, unless more information surfaces as I read more through the thread, included the awareness of the inclusion of a sister), violating those vows because you didn't put enough forethought into what it would take to accept an M/s relationship (of all things!) is as close to sacrilege as you can get.

This is much the essence of what I just said in a more personal, gory fashion. Thanks for your eloquence NZ; I think it's dead-on.
Davan

Damn now if I only could remember what I said. When you speak to ppl in a direct way there is little room for misunderstanding.

BadOne

_____________________________

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

According to SwithNSpanky
We are all so very lucky to have you with us to impart your great wisdom.

(in reply to DavanKael)

Post #: 67

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 11:24:51 AM

DavanKael

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Lol, you made several posts, essentially taking her to task on whining, going in negotiating one thing and thinking another could be manipulated later, and not living upto commitments, etc.
Right there with ya, Bad One! :> People having agendas they aren't open about makes for all sorts of drama and BS down the road and it's all unnecessary and lack of self-realization/-actualization is no excuse when commitments are made.
Davan

(in reply to SailingBum)

Post #: 68

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 12:03:34 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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Joined: 8/7/2007
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Sometimes we never know what we can do, until we set our minds to move forward and put forth the effort. I wanted nothing to do with poly when I first became involved with WIITWD. However, my boyfriend claimed he couldn't be happy unless he was actively involved in a poly relationship. After much crying and balking and struggling to understand why oh why wasn't I enough for him....I came to terms with his desires and wanting him to be happy, re-adjusted my thinking on what it was that I could or couldn't handle. As it turns out, I was ok with it. In fact, out of the three of us, I was the ONLY one ok with it. Life is weird that way, and fantasies don't always translate well into reality. Now, just because I was ok with it, doesn't mean that I don't understand that you may not be. I'm just offering you the other side of the perspective here.

Are you being selfish? In my opinion, yes. Is it wrong to be selfish? Sometimes, but not always. However, you aren't wrong to feel the way you feel. Feelings are what they are and fair doesn't usually have much to do with it. As I have stated, and has been stated by others, finding you can't handle something after the fact is not unusual. Whether you weren't honest with yourself, were playing your odds thinking you might have been able to sway him away from poly once you were 'at his side' or whether you whole heartedly believed something you later found to be harder to deal with than you ever dreamt it would be - well, it still boils down to what is more important to you. Being monogomous or conceding to your Dominants desires for poly. You may not like the outcome of either choice but those are pretty much your basic options.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 10/29/2008 12:20:46 PM >

(in reply to AMaster)

Post #: 69

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 12:39:24 PM

Jeptha

Posts: 780
Joined: 9/18/2008
From: Portland, Oregon
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeptha

But, beyond that, I do think it's just true that you can't always imagine ahead of time what something is going to be like further down the road, no matter how much deliberation you give it beforehand. Sometimes you can't know for sure and you just say "we'll cross that bridge when we come to it" (or not, as the case may be.)

Then the entirety of the realm vows and promises becomes null. At very least, if the fear of needing an escape hatch that is not laid out in hard limits before hand outweighs the desire to honor the vows one makes, one probably shouldn't be stepping into devoted D/s dynamics in the first place...and definitely not M/s ones.

Well...I have to dash off shortly, but I will definitely give this some more consideration.
I think you have to figure in what promises and vows are realistic, and which can be made with realistic forethought to what they will actually be like. I think a vow that someone will submit to the best of their ability - to acknowledge that something might change one day - is an acceptable thing.
A note about realistic vows; I've always known I'd never be married because I never saw that as a realistic vow for the average wanderer, though of course some people can pull it off. I prefer the marriage with an expiration date, after which it must be renewed again if the principal parties so choose.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 70

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 1:07:06 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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I have a distinct problem with the concept of separating promises and vows intgo realistic a nd unrealistic. Unrealistic vows should never be given and even though the heat of the romantic moment may cause them to be given the more (hopefully) sober and sensible Master or Mistress has no right to accept such flim flam. A promise or vow is a sacred thing which should never be broken. Any real man who holds his honour high and to his heart knows this. His word is his bond!

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Jeptha)

Post #: 71

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 1:28:22 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

I have a distinct problem with the concept of separating promises and vows intgo realistic a nd unrealistic. Unrealistic vows should never be given and even though the heat of the romantic moment may cause them to be given the more (hopefully) sober and sensible Master or Mistress has no right to accept such flim flam. A promise or vow is a sacred thing which should never be broken. Any real man who holds his honour high and to his heart knows this. His word is his bond!

What about a vow or promise made in good faith that simply turns out to be undeliverable? What if the circumstances at the time of the vow or promise change materially?

I take it you don't believe in divorce.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 72

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 1:46:54 PM

DavanKael

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Iron Bear----I totally agree with what you said. Quote: I have a distinct problem with the concept of separating promises and vows intgo realistic a nd unrealistic. Unrealistic vows should never be given and even though the heat of the romantic moment may cause them to be given the more (hopefully) sober and sensible Master or Mistress has no right to accept such flim flam. A promise or vow is a sacred thing which should never be broken. Any real man who holds his honour high and to his heart knows this. His word is his bond! (**I would also interject that the same of any good woman is true regarding honour and word as bond.)

Rover said: What about a vow or promise made in good faith that simply turns out to be undeliverable? What if the circumstances at the time of the vow or promise change materially?
I take it you don't believe in divorce.
John

My synthesis of these things: What I am pulling from both of these is the distinction, which is an extremely important one, of honour. Does one live by their honour and their word as bond, even when it'spainful/inconvenient/etc. (As Iron Bear states) or does one marginalize honour (As, arguably the divorce question that John posed speaks of; oft times, imo, divorce is the result of marginalizing honouring any number of things down to the lowest common denominator person involved in the relationship then gets to that point when someone refuses to sink any further. Divorce, and I am going through one right now, is an absolute dishonouring of many things.).
It may not be the explicit wording but it seems a potentially implicit message here:
Does one choose to uplift and uphold honouror to marginalize it?
Davan

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 73

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 1:54:53 PM

Rover

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Does one choose to uplift and uphold honouror to marginalize it?

Is a vow or promise made ever contingent upon someone else holding up their end of the bargain? Can honor be interdependent?

Or once a vow or promise is made, does that relinquish the other party to do whatever they wish without regard?

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DavanKael)

Post #: 74

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 2:09:31 PM

KatyLied

Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
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Stop, Rover, you are being too reality-based.

_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 75

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 2:12:08 PM

DavanKael

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Joined: 10/6/2007
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Great question, John.
My answer is largely contained in the above elucidation of my perception of why many marriages end in divorce and is wholly reality-based. It isn'tmerely a theoretical construct.
To answer more broadly and explicitly:
Honour should be an internal construct (Ie: I have an endogenous sense of right and wrong), not dictated by outside circumstances. As we interrelate with one another, one hopes that senses of honour are compatible. If they are, I would suspect and propose that goodness often ensues. When they don't, there is dissonance.
So, I would say that no, honour isn't interdependent.
Is a vow or commitment contingent on someone holding up their end of the bargain, sure. That's where honour comes in as either an uplifting force or a degraded, marginalized perversion.
Davan

< Message edited by DavanKael -- 10/29/2008 2:14:02 PM >

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 76

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 2:15:17 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

What about a vow or promise made in good faith that simply turns out to be undeliverable? What if the circumstances at the time of the vow or promise change materially?

I take it you don't believe in divorce.

John

Good point and yes I agree, infact most of us have made promises on good faith and based on the best available knowledge at the time. I believe there is time and place when such vows become null and void but before that an honourable person will have made every attempt humanly possibly (allowing for the individual's health and financial disposition). In other words such vows are made with every intention of carrying them out and although situations may change, unless the recipient of the vow realeses the person from the vow, it should be carried out. In reality, common sence much come into play. Were you to make a vow to me to do something and later were unable to do so because of health (assume that the carryi ng out of the vow would probability kill you), there is no way would I expect you to do so and in fact it would be dishonourable for me to do so.

Divorse is much the same. We take certain vows in the belief that the stus quo will remain. I have been divorced three times. First one was my first wife unwilling to waiut 5 years for me when I went to 'Nam.. Ahh well we were both Teenagers then and it all worked out for the best, she, her husband and kids are good friends... Divorce #2 was the end of a wild 13 year marriage where the first three years was pure hollywood and for the next tgen years.. 'Nan was safer but I was always away on opperations anyway so the preassure of never knowing if I was comming home in a bady bag took its toll. Ergo a messy divorce costing me in excess US$2.5 million. :Last one cost me my onlky son who I haven't seen for 13 years and who turns 16 this Xmas eve. Better a divorce than allowing the bitch to use him as a football to hold oiver me for her excessive demands. (hence I avoid kids as much as possible and allow Neets to interact with them so my barriers remain umbreached). This ids going to be remedied next year in court and hopoefully she will bew facing many years incarserated for breaching divirce orders and a Federal Court..

Ergo, if there are sufficuient good reasons for a promise or vow not being carried out or kept, it could reasonably be seen as null and void but I was refering to promises or vows being made and then the person changing his or her mind down the track. In the case in point though she has an honoiurable out if she tries the additional female in the mix and it doesn't work for her, she simple begs for release which automatically voids all vows and promises made after that of submission.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

My synthesis of these things: What I am pulling from both of these is the distinction, which is an extremely important one, of honour. Does one live by their honour and their word as bond, even when it'spainful/inconvenient/etc. (As Iron Bear states) or does one marginalize honour (As, arguably the divorce question that John posed speaks of; oft times, imo, divorce is the result of marginalizing honouring any number of things down to the lowest common denominator person involved in the relationship then gets to that point when someone refuses to sink any further. Divorce, and I am going through one right now, is an absolute dishonouring of many things.).
It may not be the explicit wording but it seems a potentially implicit message here:
Does one choose to uplift and uphold honouror to marginalize it?
Davan

I don't see a divorce situation marginalising things. I see it identicall to the oath of submission in that assuming that one or both of the people grow apart or have a sudden shange of direction (such as the acceptance of being Gay). In my book this is an unworkable situation and it is criminal and dishonourable to expect the parties to remain in situ. To do so is to invite, nay indeed force at leact one party to act in a dishonourable manner. better the break and start afresh.. Again I state that what I and I believe both you and Rover are aiming at is the childish breach of vows due to a whim.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 10/29/2008 2:22:38 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 77

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 2:25:50 PM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DavanKael

Honour should be an internal construct (Ie: I have an endogenous sense of right and wrong), not dictated by outside circumstances.

Is a sense of right and wrong synonomous with honor? Is it wrong to take a life (innate sense of right and wrong) unless it's in defense of your children whose lives are dependent upon your action (outside circumstance)? Is it really so cut and dry?

quote:

As we interrelate with one another, one hopes that senses of honour are compatible. If they are, I would suspect and propose that goodness often ensues. When they don't, there is dissonance.
So, I would say that no, honour isn't interdependent.

But your proposal is contingent upon compatible senses of honor between partners, which is itself an outside circumstance, which you have previously discounted as immaterial.

This reminds me of those who claim that a slave makes a single choice, to a Master, and from that point on can never make another choice... even to leave him. No matter what he may do to her. No matter what he may do to her family or UM's. No matter what change he may have in sanity. No matter what, she is stuck with her decision for ever and ever (amen).

I dismissed that notion as then, and I don't see how it differs now.

quote:

Is a vow or commitment contingent on someone holding up their end of the bargain, sure. That's where honour comes in as either an uplifting force or a degraded, marginalized perversion.

A contingency would be an outside circumstance. And I don't view vows or promises as entrapments, freeing a partner to do what they wish, to whomever they wish, whenever they wish. For instance, a vow does not free a spouse to sleep around, simply because the consequence of a divorce is no longer an option.

Am I viewing this incorrectly?

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to DavanKael)

Post #: 78

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 2:28:08 PM

Rover

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Joined: 6/28/2004
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Thanks for the reply, Iron Bear. I do not have the "benefit" of personal experience in this regard, but that seems a logical and realistic interpretation to me.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 79

RE: This slaves struggle to share her position - 10/29/2008 3:15:13 PM

DavanKael

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This reply gives me something to do while my hair dries before going out.  Thank you for the intellectual engagement. :>

First, Ironbear, geez, I am sorry that you've had those experiences with your marriages, particularly the part about your son. What I am calling a marginalization of honor related to divorce is, I think, closer to what you are describing than disparate. Same is true (While I lack the experience) of one breaking a bond of submission.

Ironbear is correct in that I think we are both (John and I) aiming at a childish breah of vows that the OP seems to be indulging.

John, here goes:

You said: Is a sense of right and wrong synonomous with honor? Is it wrong to take a life (innate sense of right and wrong) unless it's in defense of your children whose lives are dependent upon your action (outside circumstance)? Is it really so cut and dry?

My reply: A sense of right and wrong dictates honour.  Honour, to me, is a guiding force; it is that with which I walk; it is one of my top 3 values. I have to reject your example as not fitting the criteria of the separation you made: my sense of honour tells me that it is wrong for me to take a life unless certain criteria are met. Those are internal constructs that take external occurrences into consideration. That brings a theoretical into the real world. Imo, yes, it is that cut and dry.

You said: But your proposal is contingent upon compatible senses of honor between partners, which is itself an outside circumstance, which you have previously discounted as immaterial.
This reminds me of those who claim that a slave makes a single choice, to a Master, and from that point on can never make another choice... even to leave him. No matter what he may do to her. No matter what he may do to her family or UM's. No matter what change he may have in sanity. No matter what, she is stuck with her decision for ever and ever (amen).
I dismissed that notion as then, and I don't see how it differs now.

My reply: No it isn't. Let's say that my sense of honour tells me that I don't cheat. Hopefully, I have a partner who has the same sense of honour or we're gonna have a real problem when he does it and gets caught because then, my sense of honour dictates certain actions be taken related to said cheating. Drama and ugliness ensues. Now, if we have compatible senses of honour, then no problem. If we as a couple-entity interact with others, I would say that the concept of a mutuality of honour is present. Then, the other(s) sense(s) ofhonour interact with his, mine, ours, and ours, his, mine, theirs. I would argue one's personal sense of honour must be the foundation for any other honour bonds they make, which loops it right back around.
You and I both went to extremes with our examples. This circumstance of the OP (and the circumstances I offered in earlier posts as illustrations) are not like that: it's a simple matter of keeping one's word which should be a basic precept of any person who considers themselves even remotely capable of baseline honour or commitment. Otherwise, they're chaotic,inconstant, and untrustworthy at best, sociopathic and more at worst. I argue for the preservation of that baseline and then took it down a path that is a truism for me. Have I been dishonourable ever? Yep. Once. And, I pay every day of my life when I look at the stain that I knowingly chose to take on to my sense of self and while I know the reasons I did what I did, it does not abrogate that what I did was wrong. That's consistency in a sense of honour. My behavior deviated and created an ever-lasting dissonance.
I don't sense a dissonance in sense of honouring commitments in the OP, I see whining and refusal to stand by commitments.

You said: A contingency would be an outside circumstance. And I don't view vows or promises as entrapments, freeing a partner to do what they wish, to whomever they wish, whenever they wish.  For instance, a vow does not free a spouse to sleep around, simply because the consequence of a divorce is no longer an option.
Am I viewing this incorrectly?

My reply: There are outside circumstances acting upon us at all times.  Nods to John Dunne: "No man is an Island" (Yes, I know, that isn't exactly what the poem is about). I don't view vows or promises as entrapments either; I view them as sacred giving of words, commitments of honour, pledges of our word and bond. I am not sure what vow you are referencing in the spouse sleeping around because a consequence of divorce is nolonger an option. Honour dictates a certain way of relating with others; without it (Or with marginalized or situational or degenerate honour) people run around committing all manner of ills against one another. Honour, imo, is a baseline standard and it should be elevated, not tainted.
It is not for me to decide if you are viewing this incorrectly or correctly. As Iron Bear pointed out, I think you and I are far more on the same page regarding the OP and scenario painted there-in and likely we're not as far apart as our discussion of details may suggest.
Must get dressed now but will plan to check back before I leave and reply with the proper attention it requires upon returning home if you have chosen to converse about this further with me.
Have a good evening!
  Davan

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 80

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