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RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 7:17:20 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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Palin in a bikini

Lady C, could you please remember the time-zone differences between the US and UK and wait until after we've digested our lunches before you use such a phrase again? I'd be very grateful.

peon
x

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Post #: 21

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 9:19:36 AM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

Yes, there are genuinely many men that just plain don't like dominant women.

Okay, a bit short here, but: this does not match my experience.

See, I love lasagne, and mine has garlic and cinnamon in it.

Ask me how much of each, and I couldn't get more precise than "just a little bit of cinnamon, but somewhat more garlic," which would only be helpful to you if you are used to lasagne, garlic and cinnamon individually, or if you are inclined to make a few attempts before pulling off that parfaît lasagne. But this is hardly something new, nor is it in any way confined to cooking. It's called tacit knowledge, and it comes from experience, and will frequently be taught nonverbally. In the case of authority dynamics, one will be passed on matrilineally, while the other is passed on patrilineally, with both converging on one lineage, although different lines have been converging at different speeds.

Some men and some women can carry authority well.

The difference is primarily that men know it, while (some) women are too obsessed with what they are now entitled to do, so that they forget what they are able to do, and thus neglect learning to do it in the first place. Men with the same deficit, however, are aware of their deficit, and thus do not try to pull it off. Tacit knowledge. There are certainly many men (and women) who do not like when non-dominant women get domineering. These same men will punch a non-dominant man who gets domineering until he gets back in line. I think the women may be getting the better deal in that department.

C'mon, it's been a scant few decades since suffrage, and you're expecting gynoculture and androculture to converge in a matter of years after diverging for centuries? Where is the realism in that expectation? Are women exempt from considering the realities of biology, neurology, culture, language, cause and effect, by virtue of gender alone? Or must they now acquire the tacit knowledge that men possess in order to compete on par with one, while men must acquire the tacit knowledge that women possess in order to compete on par with one?

Fact of nature: the validity of authority is not established by the higher cognitive functions that understand delegation, but by more primitive functions that respond to the qualities of the person in question. When those instincts tell us that someone is overextending their authority, we experience cognitive dissonance due to the conflicting needs of the situation we are in (work) and the desire to call an obvious bluff. When those same instincts tell us that someone can back their authority, this dissonance does not occur. Whether the required qualities are common in women or not remains to be seen. I have certainly met women who possess the required qualities in my career, though. And I have had no problem with them in charge, nor with them being assertive.

Perhaps it's time to stop whining about how delegated rights and authority do not substitute well for backed rights and innate authority, and instead of sitting down to complain about this nonequivalence, simply dealing with the problem as an authority figure should: first understand the problem, then solve it. Such would certainly set an example that would be worth emulating, and show a lot of men that women are capable of what they claim. Because I have met very few men who had an active dislike for dominant women, but so long as it's a matter of chance who has it or not, and those who do not act as if they do, there will be conflicts between what we are, and what some might want us to be.

My bank does not allow me to cash checks without coverage.

My nature does not allow others to do so, either.

Does yours?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to RumpusParable)

Post #: 22

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 10:52:47 AM

LadyHibiscus

Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: RumpusParable

Yes, there are genuinely many men that just plain don't like dominant women.

Okay, a bit short here, but: this does not match my experience.

The difference is primarily that men know it, while (some) women are too obsessed with what they are now entitled to do, so that they forget what they are able to do, and thus neglect learning to do it in the first place. Men with the same deficit, however, are aware of their deficit, and thus do not try to pull it off. Tacit knowledge.
Health,
al-Aswad.

Oh, Aswad, do you mean this? You haven't seen incredibly incompetent men in authority positions, depending on their minions to cover them, and taking the credit? Bulldozing over their staffs, because they lack management skills? I agree with you overall (and thanks for the laugh regarding your "short post" comment!

) but I don't see a lot of men backing down from authority positions because they don't have the mad skills.

Just my experience!

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Post #: 23

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 12:21:38 PM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Palin in a bikini

Lady C, could you please remember the time-zone differences between the US and UK and wait until after we've digested our lunches before you use such a phrase again? I'd be very grateful.

peon
x

Mea Culpa...

I shall try my best, but I find that image actually less disturbing than the ones that are floating around, you know her with weapons shooting animals. I know, I know, it's all for their meat and such not for fun, the local supermarket was closed and the Palins faced starvation...
She isn't unattractive in an uptight librarian style, it's more her views and what she does for (or rather against) women that makes my stomach turn a bit, no matter if it was breakfast, lunch or dinner.

But hey, better not get political...

(in reply to PeonForHer)

Post #: 24

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 1:42:56 PM

Lockit

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I agree that a woman in a position of authority in the work place should learn to balance things and solve the discrimination problem... but on the other hand...lol... there are those nothing will be solved with and blunt ruthless power is the only thing they understand. After all... guys used it for centuries. Until they balance themselves... which isn't my job... they sometimes will be dealt the hand they live by.

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Post #: 25

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 6:21:31 PM

AllforFun

Posts: 83
Joined: 4/5/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I call them Republicans...

I dunno, I thought their wet dream would be Palin in a bikini, killing lots of mooses before "forcing" them into body worship

heh, I think im in love, lol.

Anyway, why the heck do republicans get the blame for this crap? I understand they are all for the traditional marriage and family nucleus. The dems definately dont have a spotless track record. I know they spout tolerance and all that jazz but need I remind anyone that they were the supporters of slavery in america? Jim Crowe laws? etc.

Just becasue they use socialism as a new tool to supress the lower classes doesnt make them a godsend. BTW why are all(most) the elites in the US supporters of socialism if advocates wealth redistrubution? ANSWER: th eonly money that is going to be redistributed is that of the working class thus accomplishing the Dems goal of having a society of haves and have nots.

Anyway, I digress.

(in reply to LadyConstanze)

Post #: 26

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 9:22:39 PM

ShaktiSama

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Joined: 8/13/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Some men and some women can carry authority well.

And some men and women are insufferable bigots, who try to conceal their hatred for any sort of female equality behind a facade of hypocrisy and cant.

Nice to see you back again, Gorean. Always can count on you for a laugh.

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Post #: 27

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 11:00:27 PM

ladycirce

Posts: 61
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline

as a female, i do not know how a male really feels. i can empathize, and attempt to understand what they are expressing, but mostly i am only privy to their reactions. having said that, one of the reasons i am a Professional Dominant is because of the way women are perceived and treated in mainstream society and the workplace. in some areas it may be getting better, and this is a start, but generally speaking, it still sucks balls, almost literally. i feel that the culture of most of the world still has a way to go toward evolving into an egalitarian society, and this is obvious when things like pay discrepancies still exist almost everywhere and violence against women is a fact of many lives.
i am grateful for the fact that many men do view women as equals, but from what i have seen in the real world, some of them resent it and far to many of them refute it, and when the sea change happens where people really are judged upon the content of their character instead of the body they were born in, the world will be a much healthier place.
until then i shall retreat into my Femdom fantasy when i've the leisure, and work on encouraging this progress toward equality when and where ever i can.

(in reply to AllforFun)

Post #: 28

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 11:17:11 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

You haven't seen incredibly incompetent men in authority positions, depending on their minions to cover them, and taking the credit?

I have worked for men and women of that disposition. I did not say that men do not abuse authority, just that they tend to be more aware of how far it goes. Consider for a moment police officers. Certainly, there are police officers that abuse their authority. But it isn't the norm. And if you examine both genders, you will find that police departments pick people who have a certain innate authority to go with their delegated authority, and then train and equip them to leverage the sum total as well as possible.

quote:

I agree with you overall (and thanks for the laugh regarding your "short post" comment! ) but I don't see a lot of men backing down from authority positions because they don't have the mad skills.

That's just it. They don't need to back down. They don't have the skills, but they have the authority. Glad you seem to see the point, in any case.

Anyway, it wasn't a short post, obviously, although considerably shorter than the first three drafts; I do admit it was funny, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)

Post #: 29

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 11:35:56 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit

After all... guys used it for centuries.

Primates did. Humans continued it. Women certainly aren't unfamiliar with it. They just wielded it differently, and in different arenas, usually against each other (which was rather counterproductive, I might add, so the comment on balancing oneself seems more like a human thing than a guy thing).

quote:

Until they balance themselves... which isn't my job... they sometimes will be dealt the hand they live by.

I, for one, would certainly appreciate that, on both counts. It would be respectless to assume responsibility for someone in that manner, after all. Balancing myself is, in fact, one of the processes that has heightened my awareness of this aspect of human power dynamics. And it is saddening to see otherwise qualified women getting shortchanged because they haven't learned the unwritten rules of the game, just like it's saddening to see aspies get shortchanged because they haven't learned unwritten social rules. Fortunately for women, their problem is not an innate inability to learn these rules, but simply a matter of not having had the time to do so as a collective.

Anyway, I have worked under, over and alongside women throughout my career. Some qualified, some not. Some young, some not. Some attractive, some not. Some dominant, some not. And I would note that some of these have had my respect, and the respect of my peers, in a manner that others could not hope for. Similarly, I have encountered a single man who shared the flaw of those who could not have my respect (on a personal level, that is, as I accord the professional respect regardless), and he was equally unable to earn my respect. Hence, I submit that gender is not the issue; rather, it's similar to other issues of experience and such.

Men have needed to be sensitive to the authenticity of authority for a few hundred millenia, so it shouldn't be a surprise that, just as women tend to be far better at picking up subtle nuances in spoken language, men tend to be better at picking up subtle nuances of authority dynamics. Women will catch up with the latter, now that they are entering positions where that skillset is relevant. Men will catch up with the former if the need for it arises, although I suspect it will go the other way (women no longer have the same need for discretion and diplomacy in order to avoid the problems of living in a patriarchy).

My apologies for the redundancy in this post.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Lockit)

Post #: 30

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/28/2008 11:54:13 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

And some men and women are insufferable bigots, who try to conceal their hatred for any sort of female equality behind a facade of hypocrisy and cant.

Despite whatever you may believe, I do not harbor any hatred for female equality, and have repeatedly forwarded the idea that strong men cannot exist without strong women. Which is as much as I am taking your bait this round, save to offer you an opportunity to back your words. I invite you to call the woman who was my superior at a former job and ask her about this. She decidedly had my respect, and she is fluent in English, so why not take this opportunity to settle the matter of whether I am willing and able to accord a woman the same respect as a man?

quote:

Nice to see you back again, Gorean. Always can count on you for a laugh.

It is certainly pleasant to see you, Shakti.

I hope the compliment was more appropriately worded this time.

I find that this encounter can't exactly be counted as nice, per se, although its synchronicity does occasion some mirth. You have, however, contributed some interesting content to some threads in the past, which I have enjoyed, and I am sure you will do so again; that counts as nice on my end. Perhaps you will also let the scoreboard go at some point. That would count as exceptionally nice, for whatever that may or may not be worth to you.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 31

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 3:50:55 AM

MsStarlett

Posts: 1879
Joined: 12/23/2007
Status: offline

See? All this nonsense is why I run a small shop. I'll never get rich at it, but it pays the bills and I get to do pretty much whatever I want and don't even have to deal with employees. It's only me and my mom. Whenever customers or salesmen start getting all pushy about "I want to see the boss!" - thinking that I can't possibly be the boss because I'm working the floor - I point them to my mother with a happy little smile, "See that crabby old bitch over there? The one with CPA behind her name? See if you get a better deal from her. She's been counting and pinching pennies for almost 60 years. Good luck." Then mom kicks them out the door. It's actually quite funny to watch.

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It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.

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Post #: 32

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 4:59:13 AM

MISTRESSKUMA

Posts: 226
Joined: 8/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Some men and some women can carry authority well.

And some men and women are insufferable bigots, who try to conceal their hatred for any sort of female equality behind a facade of hypocrisy and cant.

Nice to see you back again, Gorean. Always can count on you for a laugh.

-Some men are insecure and find women powerful, dominant women intimidating.
-Some men had egotistical myogynist fathers who overcompensated their insecurities by hating on women.
-Some men have womb envy.
-Some men suffer from: "You're not my Mommy" effect.
-Some men have such a strong sexual drive that they see women as "food" that they must have and that they need in order to feel "right" and satisfied and when women don't "feed" them, they are left feeling hungry and hurt. That builds up into hatred.
-Some men just have narcissistic personality disorders.

And in reference to your comment to the Gorean guy Aswad, I found it suspect and VERY telling that he answered this post in the women's section. Anyone with a brain can tell he is the type of man this thread is about. Some men really feel inferior towards women.

(in reply to ShaktiSama)

Post #: 33

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 6:09:18 AM

CatdeMedici

Posts: 2257
Joined: 10/20/2008
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it exists and I believe it will always continue to exist in America---we allow emigration ( this is not a political bash or commentary)--many of the countries who emigrate are from cultures that believe the same--so I expect that we will see it get worse before it gets better--remember 90% of people enter adult hood never changing the beliefs of their parents.

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Post #: 34

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 8:52:17 AM

littlesarbonn

Posts: 1710
Joined: 12/3/2005
From: Stockton, California
Status: offline

I've worked for a lot of women in my time, and I've NEVER had a problem working for one. I'm working for one now. She's somewhat passive-aggressive (okay, very passive aggressive) and actually a pretty bad manager, but after I realized she was having trouble with the higher management (they were trying to get her to quit by putting a lot of pressure on her), I told her I'd help her any way she needed, and I've actually been going out of my way to at least not be a further problem as she struggles with a job she really not be capable of handling (but not because she's a woman, but just because I think she's biting off more than she can chew, and I wouldn't have chosen to chew that job either myself).

Why I wanted to comment, however, is because of another factor that often comes to light, and it drives me freaking nuts. It's the women who I sometimes end up working with who think they should not have to pull their share of the load because they're women. An example: I was working for the Registrar of Voters. My job was specifically as a trainer, because that's the sort of thing I do. None of the women would lift anything, do anything involving any type of physical labor, or do anything that appeared to be "men's" work. This was the same attitude we received from the women who were actually there to bring in equipment, something the trainers don't do as it has NOTHING to do with our jobs, but often these women would show up with a van, stop it, and stand outside it, waiting for men to start hauling the equipment in, even though it was actually their job to do exactly that. I know it sounds kind of elitist to say it, but there was a reason I was getting paid 5x what they were; I wasn't there to haul in equipment, but they were. Granted, I carried my own equipment everywhere, but that's a dfferent story.

Anyway, this is one of those things I have run across that has bugged me.

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Post #: 35

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 9:06:27 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

Why I wanted to comment, however, is because of another factor that often comes to light, and it drives me freaking nuts. It's the women who I sometimes end up working with who think they should not have to pull their share of the load because they're women.

Oh my goodness, Fox comes home and complains about this all the time from his job.

Now about 90+% of the people at his place of business are women so this attitude he sees may be heightened by that reality and as more men come in to work he does start to complain about them too but for different reasons.

They have a woman there who is 'so fragile' she can't lift anything when about 20% of their job involves lifting boxes of information for the surveys they process. He is always expected to lift her share because he's the guy in the office even though he is also the supervisor.

I pointed out that as supervisor he should just tell someone else to do it but I think it's a side-effect of being more naturally submissive that he just can't bring himself to do that.

Luckily he's moved up to another job and has to deal less with this issues now.

it really annoys me though when women attempt to cry "sexism" then turn around and use sexist ideas to get what they want. The same is true for men who do the same thing.

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Post #: 36

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 11:12:45 AM

PeonForHer

Posts: 19612
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See? All this nonsense is why I run a small shop. I'll never get rich at it, but it pays the bills and I get to do pretty much whatever I want and don't even have to deal with employees.

Similarly, in my various occupations, these sorts of gender relations problems are minimal or non-existent. It's unlikely I'll ever be a millionaire, but this kind of discussion makes me feel like I live a privileged life.

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Post #: 37

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 11:22:13 AM

VampiresLair

Posts: 1307
Joined: 9/3/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlesarbonn

Why I wanted to comment, however, is because of another factor that often comes to light, and it drives me freaking nuts. It's the women who I sometimes end up working with who think they should not have to pull their share of the load because they're women.

it really annoys me though when women attempt to cry "sexism" then turn around and use sexist ideas to get what they want. The same is true for men who do the same thing.

I get this alot too. Our managers often tell the guys to go carry boxes for the girls, or they will run and fetch thigns for them so they dont have to do it themselves. I am sorry, but aside from the 3 older women we work with, there i no reason they cant do it their damn selves. Play the helpless little maiden and then wonder how come you cant get taken seriously... come on now.
I hve gone into the back and checked on what was taking a couple of crates so long to get up to me up front. The guy the manager told to load them onto the cart was having trouble lifting them. *rolls eyes* I walked over, picked it up, put it on myself and dragged the cart out. I am all for sending someone more capable of getting something to get it. I send the tall ones to get the stuff on top shelves... but honestly.
Being born with a penis doesnt automatically make you stronger. So many men seem to think it does.

I have done the mechanic thing, too. I had one tell me tat the shocks and struts on my car needed to be replaced and quoted me this insane amount of money. I scared him to death when I asked him to show me what he was talking about. My car model didnt HAVE struts, something he didnt assume I would know, I guess. I did let him twist for about 20 min trying to find them for me before I told him I knew better though. And strangely enough, his manager fixed my shocks for free after this mechanic made a fool of himself in front of a crowded waiting room. He also told me if he didnt know I had a good job elsewhere he would offer me aposition in a heartbeat *lol*

DV

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Post #: 38

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 1:44:30 PM

sleuthingsub

Posts: 68
Joined: 1/30/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AllforFun

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

I call them Republicans...

I dunno, I thought their wet dream would be Palin in a bikini, killing lots of mooses before "forcing" them into body worship

heh, I think im in love, lol.

Anyway, why the heck do republicans get the blame for this crap? I understand they are all for the traditional marriage and family nucleus. The dems definately dont have a spotless track record. I know they spout tolerance and all that jazz but need I remind anyone that they were the supporters of slavery in america? Jim Crowe laws? etc.

Just becasue they use socialism as a new tool to supress the lower classes doesnt make them a godsend. BTW why are all(most) the elites in the US supporters of socialism if advocates wealth redistrubution? ANSWER: th eonly money that is going to be redistributed is that of the working class thus accomplishing the Dems goal of having a society of haves and have nots.

Anyway, I digress.

So don't take this the wrong way, but I think that you're a tad ridiculous with your assertions. To compare the current democratic party with the democratic party that existed around the time of slavery is pretty silly. Yes, way back in the past the republican party was more progressive than the democratic party. However, things change and evolve. Check into that whole civil rights movement thing in the 60s. The republican party today is much more similar to the democratic party of the 1800s that you don't like. So if those past grievances bother you like you imply, I would expect you to agree with the current democratic party more than the current republican party.

Now about socialism: You seem to be equating it with communism. Also, I'm obviously biased, but I'm having a hard time seeing how you are getting lower class suppression from socialist reforms. Anyway, I'm sure you realize that the US is not a purely capitalistic society. Recent example of spreading the wealth (gotta love how that's the new catchphrase): giving taxpayer money to the banks. I should also point out that like anything, there are varying degrees of socialism. Just like how having aspects of capitalism doesn't mean we go completely without regulations.

So here's my take: contrary to giving large sums of taxpayer money to the already super rich, socialism generally tries to ensure a decent standard of living for the entire population (such as access to healthcare). There might not be as many billionaires and millionaires, but there will be many more working class people that now have money to spend to stimulate the economy.

Finally, why do you write "all (most)"? Isn't it easier to just say most? (okay, I had to be a grammar jerk...).

Anyway, I agree that some men are still threatened by powerful women. However, in my work place, I'm around a bunch of fellow nerds, and authority and respect is derived from knowledge, ideas, and work ethic. I tend to lose respect for those that cling to sexist and racist justifications. I remember a conversation over lunch my freshman year with a guy I'd gone to high school with and a few of his friends. They got to mean-spirited joking about how women were inherently more stupid, and began to try to convince me that there were "studies" that proved this. I was kinda taken aback that people would actually think like that, as my life experiences (plus knowledge and reason) had taught me otherwise. Come to think of it, they were all pretty unsuccessful with the ladies too....correlation?

(in reply to AllforFun)

Post #: 39

RE: Men who dont like Dominant women - 10/29/2008 3:07:29 PM

hereyesruponyou

Posts: 770
Joined: 1/22/2007
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Registered Republican - scared of Palin... yeah, very scared

Dom/Domme couples are not that uncommon. It can lead to a little struggle now and again, but in our house it also leads to alot of "I'm NOT your submissive" and laughs

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Ask a Mistress >> RE: Men who dont like Dominant women

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