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RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 5:10:20 AM

LadyEllen

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From: Stourport-England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So what I'm getting here is an attitude that we need to preserve an institutional racist bias in how our laws are enforced. Is that about right?

Probably. And it probably extends further than ethnicity alone.

If I call a university professor a "dumb shit" its understood to be a verdict on something he/she has said or do. If I call someone with Downs Syndrome a "dumb shit" then its understood to be something quite different. And so on.

It comes down to interpretation in the end, based on what is said and to whom by whom. You dont hear many investigations of black youths who seem to go about calling each other n-this and n-that, but it takes on a whole different meaning if I say it. Same with this effigy of Sarah Palin - a depiction of her hanging is a whole different thing to a depiction of Obama hanging - yes, Palin supporters are going to be annoyed but "Palin supporters" is a transient group comprising (one would hope) representatives of the population as a whole who back her ideas and so any message of hate therein contained upon interpretation is directed at her ideas, maybe her herself too as the representative of those ideas, but not all women, not all Alaskans, not all Christians and not all Republicans etc.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 41

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 5:24:50 AM

NuminousLeader

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Joined: 6/13/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Absolutely: this free speech at all cost bollocks seems to be an excuse for abominable, unacceptable shit. Free speech shouldn't be a free ride for violent hateful discourse; it should be used responsibly and if not... there should be consequences.

The problem is who decides what is unacceptable? The concept of Free Speech is slowly getting lost in our society.

Every time they (who are they) add something to the list of what is not Free Speech we all lose.

Look at the last year, people have been thrown out of political speeches because they worn t-shirts which opposed the person speaking. Because it may have caused others to become violent or create a dusturbance. So now t-shirts opposing political ideas are not allowed to be worn at public speaking events when it opposes the idea of the person speaking.

Remember Cindy whatshername getting kicked out of Bushes address when he was re-elected. Would she be kicked out today, when most Americans now believe Bush was wrong.

Was the noose in bad taste yes, was the intent to create hate??? It depends on who you ask. Is hanging a Obama likeness in bad taste, yes, is a lawn jockey in bad taste, yes, is displaying the Conferate flag in bad taste yes, to they rise to the level of hate crime???? That's the problem, it is a very vague and personal issue and people differ in what is and what is not a hate crime.

You can't end hate by making it against the law

< Message edited by NuminousLeader -- 10/29/2008 5:27:26 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 42

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 5:48:53 AM

Darias

Posts: 1757
Joined: 1/17/2006
From: midlands ireland
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this is another one of those topics ya`ll over the water have a better grasp of than Me. but here it goes. ill try keep my comments in line with the OP but bare with me

seems to Me that Dr kings hope was to have everyone treated exactly the same... sorta like folks on a social networking site that doesnt allow pictures. you know peoples name but all you can judge them on is their actions and words not their skin color ethnicity, core beliefs or upbringing( i know some of these things shine through in conversations but bare with me) . so voters are suposed to look at obama and palin and pick the one who they think will lead best

heres the thing. if the hollywood scene was just a halloween creation staring two people in the publics eye then surely the creater should have had obama on equal footing with palin. or not had palin appearing at all? does the creators intention come into it? is it a hate crime if he or she put obama hanging beside palin simpley cause both are in the election? perhaps im not understanding the hate crimes laws corectly. i supose its simple enough for someone to do something we all classify as a hatefull act and then plead innocence before the law and public opinion saying *gee gosh it was just a joke no harm meant*

but then its just as easy for the reverse to happen . an african american kid steals a caucasian kids lunch the white kid kicks his ass . can the african american kid not claim his ass whooping was a hate crime? wheres the line? and how do you prove what was in someones heart and mind when they do something?

Lucy`s link bothers me more than the OP`s maybe cause i got a bad vibe listening to the woman talking, in comparison to Hollywood where lets face it if its not exciting and eyecatching its ignored, the obama display makes me shudder more. and it kinda works as a good example of what im trying to say. i was incomfortable listening to the woman justify or explain her obama display, but her outward actions and words are nowhere near hatefull towards obama or any race (she does mention not being a fan but that hardly counts in an election setting).

like i said this is something You guys had and have to deal with alot more than Me, heck Axe ,Lady E and the rest of the brits deal with this kind of situation more than the irish. maybe by the time the racial equality arguement was in question we didnt have enough racial diversety here for it to matter that much. and now that the equality lines are drawn we find it easier to accept them without question or issue ( we have our bad apples and a few hate crimes of our own but for the most part its live and let live/ who theyare not what they are ).

maybe im waffling. maybe im making no sense. im just wondering if theres a risk of equality being skewed one way or the other because of history when in my eyes atleast, those who stood up seeking equality only wanted a level playing field for everyone

Darias

_____________________________

**Perving or perusing... it gets me the same place.**

**May Gods come between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk**

** may you live in interesting times**

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 43

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 6:02:17 AM

puella

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Joined: 12/2/2004
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Just as an aside....

quote:

ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

The image of a black man in a noose is different from that of a white woman in a noose due to historical use (misuse).

Right because its not like woman were accused of being witches an hanged was it?

That would be correct. Witches (men and women, btw) were not commonly hanged. They were burned at the stake or drowned.
To try to paint this as some sort of sexist hate crime is really lame.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to FatDomDaddy)

Post #: 44

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 6:19:42 AM

NeedToUseYou

Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
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First of all, I'll just get it on record, I think all hate crime laws are complete trash, and nothing more than thought policing.

However, you know if I was going to make a political display for halloween, I almost certainly would have Bush hanging, Mccain hanging, and Obama hanging, and probably a makeup of congress burning.

So, question? Since I truly do dislike all of them, would that then be acceptable, and where exactly do I submit these question regarding appropriate thought and acceptable intent? I mean Obama is still hanging, but do the whites hanging now make that acceptable and negate the perceived racial slant, of just hanging the president, as I will probably dislike obama as much as bush, seeing he is far ahead of even bush before he got elected in lies, and bad associations.

Another question? When Obama is elected, pretty sure he will be at this point, what terms will I have the right to use, in criticizing him. I mean, people call bush, a monkey, redneck, retard, idiot, cracker, etc.. What office of government must I refer to know which insults I can cast at Obama without falling foul of the law.

Thanks, your help in this matter would be appreciated.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 45

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 6:36:35 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
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I think it's wonderful that Obama's election will require for all of us to rethink our outdated vocabulary :-) .

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Post #: 46

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:03:40 AM

Sanity

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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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Look at what they did to Joe The Plumber, he can't work now. Using government computers, they tracked him down and checked on every aspect of his life, and with what they found they ruined him - all for merely asking Obama a question. So, with the specter of Democrats seizing control of all branches of government, it may not be safe to utter a single word in defiance of the One.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

First of all, I'll just get it on record, I think all hate crime laws are complete trash, and nothing more than thought policing.

However, you know if I was going to make a political display for halloween, I almost certainly would have Bush hanging, Mccain hanging, and Obama hanging, and probably a makeup of congress burning.

So, question? Since I truly do dislike all of them, would that then be acceptable, and where exactly do I submit these question regarding appropriate thought and acceptable intent? I mean Obama is still hanging, but do the whites hanging now make that acceptable and negate the perceived racial slant, of just hanging the president, as I will probably dislike obama as much as bush, seeing he is far ahead of even bush before he got elected in lies, and bad associations.

Another question? When Obama is elected, pretty sure he will be at this point, what terms will I have the right to use, in criticizing him. I mean, people call bush, a monkey, redneck, retard, idiot, cracker, etc.. What office of government must I refer to know which insults I can cast at Obama without falling foul of the law.

Thanks, your help in this matter would be appreciated.

< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/29/2008 7:04:42 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

Post #: 47

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:05:58 AM

puella

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Joined: 12/2/2004
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Look at what who did to (not)Joe the (not)plumber? Nobody gave a crap about him until McCain/Palin hauled his ass 22 times into the debate and then their political platform.... and don't feel too bad for him, he now has started his own campaign crusade for McCain...he will be just fine.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 48

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:07:15 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

How do you know he's not a plumber. How did you get that information on him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Look at what who did to (not)Joe the (not)plumber? Nobody gave a crap about him until McCain/Palin hauled his ass 22 times into the debate and then their political platform.... and don't feel too bad for him, he now has started his own campaign crusade for McCain...he will be just fine.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 49

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:11:02 AM

Darias

Posts: 1757
Joined: 1/17/2006
From: midlands ireland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

How do you know he's not a plumber. How did you get that information on him.

by the same token how do you know he is? where did YOU get Your information from

_____________________________

**Perving or perusing... it gets me the same place.**

**May Gods come between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk**

** may you live in interesting times**

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 50

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:13:55 AM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
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heheh, he has no licence! I can snake out a drain too, it doesn't make me a legitmate plumber!

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 51

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:29:19 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

He told Barack Obama in the now infamous video (shot when they met) that he worked as a plumber. Haven't you seen it? Everyone else has...

I get my information from Newspapers, Cable news, and Internet news. Why do you ask...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darias

by the same token how do you know he is? where did YOU get Your information from

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to Darias)

Post #: 52

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:31:22 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Look at what they did to Joe The Plumber, he can't work now. Using government computers, they tracked him down and checked on every aspect of his life, and with what they found they ruined him - all for merely asking Obama a question.

Who are these 'they' you speak of?

_____________________________

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 53

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:32:37 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

How do you know he has no licence.

Oh yeah, that's one of the things the Obama people used to destroy him... they checked on everything. His plumbing licence, his boss's contractor's licence, Joe's tax status, his child support status, and so on.

Point is, puella, you shouldn't have that info on the guy. Not when his only crime was quizzing Barack Obama about his tax policies.

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

heheh, he has no licence! I can snake out a drain too, it doesn't make me a legitmate plumber!

< Message edited by Sanity -- 10/29/2008 7:33:04 AM >

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 54

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:34:09 AM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
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Um... because he said so to the press and then said that the place where he works allows him to to plumbing work anyway.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 55

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:35:49 AM

Sanity

Posts: 22039
Joined: 6/14/2006
From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline

The press asked him because that information was released by some union thugs who checked up on him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

Um... because he said so to the press and then said that the place where he works allows him to to plumbing work anyway.

_____________________________

Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

(in reply to puella)

Post #: 56

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:37:05 AM

puella

Posts: 2457
Joined: 12/2/2004
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Here, Joe's local paper :

http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081016/NEWS09/810160418

You can look up licences all by yourself, they are on public record, for obvious reasons.

_____________________________

We must move forward, not backward, upward, not forward, and always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom...... The Simpsons

War is God's way of teaching Americans geography." ...Ambrose Bierce

"Don't you oppress me!"....Stan/Loretta

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 57

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:37:46 AM

Darias

Posts: 1757
Joined: 1/17/2006
From: midlands ireland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

He told Barack Obama in the now infamous video (shot when they met) that he worked as a plumber. Haven't you seen it? Everyone else has...

I get my information from Newspapers, Cable news, and Internet news. Why do you ask...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darias

by the same token how do you know he is? where did YOU get Your information from

OK so your argument is that Joe the plumber is in fact a plumber cause he told us so?

and this is what you want to use on THIS website? where we daily run into those who claim to be dom/sub/weal/twue even though its quite obvious after a time they are none of those

with respect ... Joe the plumber is just Joe till he or someone else shows us his license . i mean your not gonna let some homeless guy perform surgery on you just cause he says he was a doctor are you?

ETA cause last line was shown to be inaccurate by research

< Message edited by Darias -- 10/29/2008 7:40:42 AM >

_____________________________

**Perving or perusing... it gets me the same place.**

**May Gods come between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk**

** may you live in interesting times**

(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 58

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:39:23 AM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

Oh well, if you want to make an argument against celebrity culture, that would be fantastic. It's quite ridiculous how they drag those pesky skeletons out of people's closets, isn't it? Point is, nowadays, if you don't want your private business displayed in front of the entire country, don't succumb to the urge of speaking to anyone on camera. Same for you, same for me, same for Joe the fucking plumber.

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(in reply to Sanity)

Post #: 59

RE: Is it a hate crime? - 10/29/2008 7:39:49 AM

kdsub

Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Let me give you an analogy, Kd. Say I put up a fairy tale Halloween display every year, based on the witch in the gingerbread house winning, and putting Hansel and Gretel into the oven. Every four years, I toss a political twist on it. What happens if Lieberman is on the ticket? Have I committed a crime when I depict him going into the oven, or anywhere near it? Certainly insensitive, but feloniously so? Wouldn't it be racist to leave him out?

Say you had a Jewish survivor of the holocaust living next door …and there is bad blood between you…then yes you could be prosecuted.

But I think Silvermark has the right idea…if the display caused a problem then you would be asked to remove it and if you did not do it you could and would be prosecuted because your intent would be deemed prejudiced.

Why not put poor old Lieberman in a limb chipper instead.

Butch

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 60

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