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-=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need .... - 11/1/2008 9:12:02 PM

ResidentSadist

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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

I don’t see a difference in either statement as they apply to any subordinant. Yet it seems like it is trying to explain a difference between slaves and submissives.

I have good grasp of the English language but, this common slogan escapes my ability to understand it. I have looked at it quite seriously wondering if there was some blind spot in my personality structure that prevented me from seeing the reason so many people put this quote in their profiles.

Anyone care to shed some light on this?

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Post #: 1

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:13:53 PM

hopelessfool

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Joined: 7/29/2005
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I think it says sub implies choice slave implies no choice.... -shrugs-

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" I have nothing left to give, I have found the perfect end, You remain to make it hurt, disappear in to the dirt, carry me to heavens arms.....Dear Agony Just let go of me, suffer slowly, is this the way its gotta be, Dear Agony...."

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 2

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:17:00 PM

Rover

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This is kinda like looking at clouds to see if they appear to be something they are not (no matter how much one may look like a duck, it's still a cloud). In other words, I'm with you... I don't see anything meaningful here other than some trite rhetoric. But let's play along...

Perhaps it is intended to mean that slaves know intuitively what they are to do... obey. And thus only await instruction so that they can complete the task.

Whereas submissives need to be told to obey, because it is not in their nature.

Or something silly to that effect. I categorically dismiss the entire premise as having any value.

John

_____________________________

"Man's mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions."

Sri da Avabhas

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 3

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:22:14 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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Well - it is, i think, a meditational. One hand clapping. So take anything anyone says on it with a grain of salt.

But I do not see it as meanign 'need' in terms of 'what you need to do once you get your hands on one', but 'what the one needs in order to be fulfilled.

Submissives have a need to experience being - bossed around. (I am offering a possible interpretation of the statement that opened the thread, not actually making a statement that lumps all of a type together and presents itselfs as a true statement that I believe, so please don't tell me that you are sub and it doesn't apply to you. It was not my statement of personal belief, simply an offered interpretation of a presented statement.)

Slaves need to have the experience of being obediant and pleasing.

I think there is no doubt some of both of those needs in every s-type, but, then again, my defination of 'slave versus sub' is strictly Judith Martin (miss manners) 'well, what did they say they wished to be called?' ( or what did their Master chose to call them, in some cases.)

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
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(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 4

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:27:24 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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Some seem to take a statement and assume meanings that are not explicit.

Submssives need to be told what to do. Since it doesn't say they need to obey, then it might be assumed that they don't.

Slaves need to do what they are told, implies both instruction and expectation of obedience.

Following that line of reasoning, then: Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told. These two combined sentences might imply that submissives have a choice to obey, and slaves do not.

If one is comfortable making assumptions, then the rhetoric fits.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 11/1/2008 9:30:48 PM >

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 5

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:42:28 PM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
. . . In other words, I'm with you... I don't see anything meaningful here other than some trite rhetoric. But let's play along...

Perhaps it is intended to mean that slaves know intuitively what they are to do... obey. And thus only await instruction so that they can complete the task.

Whereas submissives need to be told to obey, because it is not in their nature.

Or something silly to that effect. I categorically dismiss the entire premise as having any value.

John

I am with on that. I tried to take the high road looking at the implication that one knows what to do and the other needs to be told but it didn’t seem fit differently for either subordinant role no matter how I look at it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske
…

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance
…

I see what both of you are saying but to make that fit, it would have to mean “submissive” as in personality trait not a subordinant relationship role. In comparing slaves vs submissives in a BDSM context, I just don’t see how we can extrapolate that a submissive BDSM relationship partner is NOT submissive to her Dominant. Hence my confusion.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to WinsomeDefiance)

Post #: 6

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:44:32 PM

everhope

Posts: 2179
Joined: 8/19/2007
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            "Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

when i stop trying to understand the words and simply feel the words this is how it translated for me.
              a submissive needs external motivation to do (serve) and a slave's motivation to do (serve) is internal.

may we all find our bliss.

_____________________________

may we all find our bliss

Resident VWB

We all die.
The goal isn't to live forever.
The goal is to create something that will.

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 7

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:47:06 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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To further debate the validity of the saying, I'd have to buy into it. I don't.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 8

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:47:21 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
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Resident Sadist -
now you have went and forced me to ask a question I hate.
What, to you, is the difference between a sub and a slave?
Can someone have a 'slave's heart'?
How would a single person, on this site to search, chose between the two choices they are given - submissive or slave?

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to everhope)

Post #: 9

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:57:06 PM

krikket

Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline

It seems to me to be on the same line of thinking as "if he's a 'real' Master he'll just know what to do without any imput from me."

regards,
jiminie

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by A. Nin

When your heart speaks take good notes.

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 10

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 9:58:53 PM

NuevaVida

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I have never heard that common slogan and personally find it to be a bit silly.

~ my two cents

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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 11

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:01:11 PM

WinsomeDefiance

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Joined: 8/7/2007
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I remember having that external/internal, submissive vs slave conversation with you, Kalon. It was interesting, and you are as always passionate in your views which is fun, but the concept is still something I don't buy into.

< Message edited by WinsomeDefiance -- 11/1/2008 10:03:16 PM >

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 12

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:04:21 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

I don’t see a difference in either statement as they apply to any subordinant. Yet it seems like it is trying to explain a difference between slaves and submissives.

slaves obey... simple enough. they dont struggle to understand, at least not on the outside. they simply.. do

a slave is service driven, with no thought to herself. she will obey, remember what she is taught, and simply react.

a submissive is more self oriented. a "whats in it for me" kind of thing. she may need to be told more than once to do something, over and over again. a slave will struggle within herself to remember everything she is told, and wont deviate from that command until told otherwise. she will even fault and punish herself for forgetting.

perhaps that is the answer?

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 13

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:04:57 PM

marieToo

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Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
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"Submissives need to be told what to do."

"Slaves need to do what they are told."

According to this, both subs and slaves need to be told what to do. But for submissives it stops there. The slave on the other hand needs to actually do it.

It's totally moronic to me, because there's really no completion to the thoughts. But they are laid out in such a way as to imply a comparison, but the whole thing simply falls short of actually doing that.

_____________________________

marie.

I give good agita.

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Post #: 14

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:20:25 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: everhope

            "Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

when i stop trying to understand the words and simply feel the words this is how it translated for me.
              a submissive needs external motivation to do (serve) and a slave's motivation to do (serve) is internal.

may we all find our bliss.

That doesn’t make any more sense than the original slogan.
In your interpretation, it would seem that
A.)     submissive folk need to be handcuffed to the vacuum cleaner in order to be motivated to use it, where as a slave would vacuum because the carpet needs clean?
B.)      submissive folk cannot possibly obey and serve because it fulfills them, but slaves can?
C.)      Submissive folk need presents before they will submit but slaves don’t need anything?

Logic, and experience compels me to strongly disagree.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to everhope)

Post #: 15

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:22:40 PM

catize

Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

I don’t see a difference in either statement as they apply to any subordinant. Yet it seems like it is trying to explain a difference between slaves and submissives.

slaves obey... simple enough. they dont struggle to understand, at least not on the outside. they simply.. do

a slave is service driven, with no thought to herself. she will obey, remember what she is taught, and simply react.

a submissive is more self oriented. a "whats in it for me" kind of thing. she may need to be told more than once to do something, over and over again. a slave will struggle within herself to remember everything she is told, and wont deviate from that command until told otherwise. she will even fault and punish herself for forgetting.

perhaps that is the answer?

tazzy

ummmmm, no!

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 16

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:29:55 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

a slave is service driven, with no thought to herself. she will obey, remember what she is taught, and simply react.

a submissive is more self oriented. a "whats in it for me" kind of thing. she may need to be told more than once to do something, over and over again.

Regarding the part I bolded, that does not describe me at all, in either position.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 17

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:38:58 PM

tazzygirl

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Joined: 10/12/2007
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just going by this train of thought.. a slave doesnt say no.. once she does.. she is no longer a slave. a submissive may say no at any time

notice.. i said.. may.. not will

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 18

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:41:13 PM

NuevaVida

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OK, but I have and do give thought to myself and I don't need to be told something over and over again.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 19

RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:43:37 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

again, i said may... not does.. ive known some pretty self-centered submissives.. and i have known many i would have considered slaves in their hearts

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NuevaVida)

Post #: 20

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