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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:46:09 PM

catize

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

OK, but I have and do give thought to myself and I don't need to be told something over and over again.

Could you repeat that 5 or 6 more times, please?

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 10:49:59 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

OK, but I have and do give thought to myself and I don't need to be told something over and over again.

Could you repeat that 5 or 6 more times, please?

Pfffffft....brat!

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 11:03:33 PM

ResidentSadist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: everhope
"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

when i stop trying to understand the words and simply feel the words this is how it translated for me.
a submissive needs external motivation to do (serve) and a slave's motivation to do (serve) is internal.

may we all find our bliss.

I agree that the motivation and reward systems are commonly a little different for slaves and sub missives. However, in order to extrapolate this slogan and draw a base line between the needs of a slave and a submissive in relevance to receiving or obeying a command I give you this by stating it inversely:

Submissives need to be told what to do. / Slaves do NOT need to be told what to do.

Slaves need to do what they are told. / Submissives do NOT need to do what they are told.

Now that just seems silly to me as it negates the motivations of both relationship roles.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 11:18:01 PM

marieToo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Submissives need to be told what to do. / Slaves do NOT need to be told what to do.

Slaves need to do what they are told. / Submissives do NOT need to do what they are told.

I don't think this would be the interpretation because it's already in the statement that the slave needs to do what "they are told". Therefore the slave as well as the submissive needs to be told what to do. The problem I'm starting to see here is that the two statements compare apples to oranges.

In the sub statement, the focus is on what the sub needs to be told.

In the slave statement, the focus is on what the slave needs to do.

This would work:

A sub needs to be told what to do. A slave anticipates without needing instruction

OR

A sub can refuse a command. A slave is compelled to obey.

(neither of these are my beliefs, but in each case the same premise is being compared. In the original statement they are comparing sub and slave against two different subjects. That's why it's never going to make any sense.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 11:21:21 PM

tazzygirl

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good thoughts, marie

ya know, no one seems to be owning up to this quote.

any guess why?

lol

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 11:24:47 PM

ResidentSadist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tsatske
Resident Sadist -
now you have went and forced me to ask a question I hate.
What, to you, is the difference between a sub and a slave?
Can someone have a 'slave's heart'?
How would a single person, on this site to search, chose between the two choices they are given - submissive or slave?

Dear tsake,
I cannot force you to do anything… unless you come to Daytona Beach.

- difference between a sub and a slave?
The difference between a slave and submissive is that a slave doesn’t get to negotiate limits and usually a submissive does. Negotiating moot points (limits) in my understanding and experience with TPE style relationships as extrapolated in:
-=TPE - no limits total submission, fact or fiction?=-

- Can someone have a 'slave's heart'?
Yes, I think so. Even non consensual Armenian slaves that were captured by the Turks can maintain a slaves heart and perspective in the face of adversity as in this example.
-=Belly Dancer Slave, a real nonconsensual slave=-

-How would a single person, on this site to search, chose between the two choices they are given - submissive or slave?
It would depend which one they were searching for unless they were in Nigeria, were all subs are slaves and have model perfect figures. LOL
-=Perfect Nigerian Stepford Slaves=-

Long ago this site only had “Top” & “Bottom” categories. It still isn’t up to par in my opinion and it is time for a category upgrade.
-=CollarMe.com Flashback Oct 2002=-

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 11:30:52 PM

ResidentSadist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I have never heard that common slogan and personally find it to be a bit silly.

~ my two cents

A month or so ago I did an international radar survey of poly/bi/fem and saw this quote a lot. It seems silly to me too because no matter how you slice the implications or extrapolate it to create a difference, it doesn't make sense. If it said "subordinants need to be told what to do and do what they are told” I would understand it.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 11:45:43 PM

Lordandmaster

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I don't understand the urge to try to simplify life with neat maxims. Life is fucking complicated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/1/2008 11:53:44 PM

Daes

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Everyone is going to read into the statement differently cause we're all different people (obviously).

So trying to debate the meaning for someone else is retarded and a waste of time.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 3:46:54 AM

stella41b

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I'll try.... I see a distinct difference.

The key word here is 'do' and it's position in both sentence constructions.

Spanish, Russian and Polish are descriptive languages, which means you communicate ideas through description. In such languages generally one word has one common uniform meaning.

English however is a naming language, where one word can have more than one meaning and also more than one form.

For example 'submissive' can be both a noun and an adjective. Get has 18 different meanings. Set has 58 different meanings.

Therefore do has different meanings as well, for it is not only an action verb (I will do it tomorrow) it is also an auxiliary verb (Do you like cheese?)

The key to understanding what a word means in a sentence lies in how it is used. English grammar is simple, one of the simplest grammars of any language on this planet, but as any non-native English speaker will tell you, learning what English words can mean can be a pain in the neck.

So how do we know what a word really means? By its context. If you check any thesaurus you will find that the verb 'do' has anything up to 13 different senses. I'm trying nothing more than a simple paraphrase.

The second sentence here where the verb 'do' is the subject of the sentence the meaning to me is literal:

Slaves need to do what they are told = Slaves need to be told how to act.

The first sentence the verb 'do' is the more flexible object of the sentence and it's function in the sentence is not the same as it in second. Whereas in the second sentence the verb 'do' forms part of subject's verb in the first sentence it merely becomes a verb phrase and is therefore the object of the sentence and can be interpreted more liberally. Hence:

Submissives need to be told what to do = Submissives need to be told what to accomplish.

The above paraphrase is my interpretation of the first sentence, based on my understanding of "the lifestyle" - another word which may be interpreted differently by other posters. These different interpretations are connotations.

It is these connotations which allow for word play in the English language, for puns and double entendres, and is also a reason why we will never really reach a general consensus on what any particular label means.

Makes sense?

ETA: English relies heavily as a language on implication and inference. It's also an individual language which means that no two people will ever use it the same way. This is why whenever someone who is a native English speaker opens their mouth you can easily infer (1) where they come from (2) their education and (3) many different things about them from their pronunciation and choice of words.

< Message edited by stella41b -- 11/2/2008 4:04:14 AM >

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 4:00:20 AM

usemekinky

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I don't have a whole lot of experience in the lifestyle. After having a friend explain what they defined slave as, I choose to define myself as a submissive.
I consider myself a submissive because I do have a few limits that I will not do. But I also believe I have a servants heart, I live to please an serve, even outside a D/s relationship.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 4:04:27 AM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

I don’t see a difference in either statement as they apply to any subordinant. Yet it seems like it is trying to explain a difference between slaves and submissives.

I have good grasp of the English language but, this common slogan escapes my ability to understand it. I have looked at it quite seriously wondering if there was some blind spot in my personality structure that prevented me from seeing the reason so many people put this quote in their profiles.

Anyone care to shed some light on this?

I think it's brilliant, succinct and absolutely clear as a bell.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 4:10:54 AM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: everhope
"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

when i stop trying to understand the words and simply feel the words this is how it translated for me.
a submissive needs external motivation to do (serve) and a slave's motivation to do (serve) is internal.

may we all find our bliss.
I agree that the motivation and reward systems are commonly a little different for slaves and sub missives. However, in order to extrapolate this slogan and draw a base line between the needs of a slave and a submissive in relevance to receiving or obeying a command I give you this by stating it inversely:

Submissives need to be told what to do. / Slaves do NOT need to be told what to do.

Slaves need to do what they are told. / Submissives do NOT need to do what they are told.

Now that just seems silly to me as it negates the motivations of both relationship roles.

Negatory.

For me...a sub, I'm in constant confusion as to what's the right thing to do (possibly because I retain choice), so I'm constantly waiting to be told what to do and desperately need someone in my life to direct me (on most everything but business/work issues), whereas (IMO) if I was a slave I would tend to be less confused because my function in life would be more clearly defined and more finite, yet with far fewer options.

Options can be confusing...however, I would never opt to be a slave, it's not in my personality.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 11/2/2008 4:15:48 AM >

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 4:55:25 AM

IronBear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

I don’t see a difference in either statement as they apply to any subordinant. Yet it seems like it is trying to explain a difference between slaves and submissives.

I have good grasp of the English language but, this common slogan escapes my ability to understand it. I have looked at it quite seriously wondering if there was some blind spot in my personality structure that prevented me from seeing the reason so many people put this quote in their profiles.

Anyone care to shed some light on this?

If is looks like a duck, smells like a duck, sounds like a duck and acts like a duck in all probability it is a duck.

If it looks like a duck but has no other duck like attributes or acts differently to a duck you can safely bet youe arse it is not a duck... Sounds like someone with a hemeroid stuck in his or her anal sphincter trying to make sence to me..

< Message edited by IronBear -- 11/2/2008 4:56:05 AM >

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 5:05:48 AM

Padriag

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

Anyone care to shed some light on this?

Because people like catchy phrases that sound meaningful... even if they aren't.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 5:34:51 AM

IvyMorgan

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Stella said exactly what I was trying to say but couldn't find the words for.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 5:48:25 AM

softness

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

Please note I invest no value at all in the truth of this statement. This is merely how I would deconstruct its meaning.

The construction of the sentence relies on inflection to get its meaning across. The meaning is not mystical and hardly subtle. Subtle reversals and contrasts like this are a formulaic part of English that we inherited from Latin. Philosophers and rhetoricians would employ them as pleasing devices in their writing. Lovers of English rhetoric still employ such tricks to make their writing seem pithy and amusing.

Submissives have a need for instructions ... carrying them out is not perhaps the focus for them but the "being instructed" is what they need (want desire require etc)

Slaves have a need for action and obedience .... it is not the order they are given but the performance of that instruction (insert also reference to force perhaps) that they need (want desire require)

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 6:20:44 AM

Padriag

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Uh huh... showin off that sexy brain again...

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 6:41:02 AM

daddysliloneds

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those kind of statements come from those who don't have a clue, but if it works for them, more power to them.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/2/2008 6:48:27 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

again, i said may... not does.. ive known some pretty self-centered submissives.. and i have known many i would have considered slaves in their hearts

It depends on the person. I have know people who consider themselves submissive and they don't have to be told over and over to do something. They know what they have to do and they do it. I have also know slaves who were self centered and lied like dogs. I don't understand the need people have to label themselves. If your Mistress or Master is happy with your performance, they what difference does it make.

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