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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/3/2008 12:31:12 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For others that have semantic fairy dust in their eyes, it may become more clear if you put the premise into action.  If that doesn’t clear up some of the foggy Zen concepts that are getting superimposed on this slogan, I give up.

"Submissives need to be told to wash. Slaves need to wash when they are told."


I'm a little confused by this.  In your original post, you pose a question about the possible meanings of two sentences - which is largely my understanding of what semantics could be defined as.  Then you seem to be frustrated by the responses you are getting, and criticize a sect of those who have responded, by attempting to clear up the very sentence you claim not to understand yourself.  What am I missing here? 

WinD

“What is endless and with an end? What is not endless and not with an end?”

That slogan in the OP has all the ambiguity of some of the dharmas I have read like the one above.  The Zen comment was inspired from a meditaion "one hand clapping" post and was meant to point out the ambiguity of the slogan not frustration.  As I said to John, I could have been more concise.  I imagine not many people associate Zen teachings with ambiguity. 

The semantic fairy dust is the magical effect the snappy slogan has on readers when it hits their eyes, not readers replies.  So these are my footnotes about my ambiguous reply, wish we had some for that slogan. 

I am not frustrated or disappointed by anything in this thread.  I am pleasantly surprised by how many interpretations and perspectives have been brought to light.  I think I’ll post a recap in a minute. 

-Kalon Eric

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/3/2008 1:06:14 PM   
WinsomeDefiance


Posts: 6719
Joined: 8/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

ORIGINAL: WinsomeDefiance

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
For others that have semantic fairy dust in their eyes, it may become more clear if you put the premise into action.  If that doesn’t clear up some of the foggy Zen concepts that are getting superimposed on this slogan, I give up.

"Submissives need to be told to wash. Slaves need to wash when they are told."


I'm a little confused by this.  In your original post, you pose a question about the possible meanings of two sentences - which is largely my understanding of what semantics could be defined as.  Then you seem to be frustrated by the responses you are getting, and criticize a sect of those who have responded, by attempting to clear up the very sentence you claim not to understand yourself.  What am I missing here? 

WinD

“What is endless and with an end? What is not endless and not with an end?”

That slogan in the OP has all the ambiguity of some of the dharmas I have read like the one above.  The Zen comment was inspired from a meditaion "one hand clapping" post and was meant to point out the ambiguity of the slogan not frustration.  As I said to John, I could have been more concise.  I imagine not many people associate Zen teachings with ambiguity. 

The semantic fairy dust is the magical effect the snappy slogan has on readers when it hits their eyes, not readers replies.  So these are my footnotes about my ambiguous reply, wish we had some for that slogan. 

I am not frustrated or disappointed by anything in this thread.  I am pleasantly surprised by how many interpretations and perspectives have been brought to light.  I think I’ll post a recap in a minute. 

-Kalon Eric


I see.  Thank you for taking the time to clarify you perspective on this, for me.


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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/3/2008 11:48:51 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

'Uległym trzeba powiedzieć co mają zrobić. Niewolnicy potrzebują zrobić jak im kazano.'
[Oo-leg-wim tcheba po-vidgitch so mayawn zrobitch. Nye-voll-neetsee potchebooyawn zrobitch yak eem kazano]

The above are the two statements translated into Polish. As I pointed out in my earlier posting the key word in both sentences is 'do' which we can see from the fact that the Polish verb 'zrobić' (to do) is in both sentences. However the word which is equally important here is the word 'told'.

However there is a difference between the two sentences and this is expressed in two separate Polish verbs which mean 'to tell' - powiedzieć and kazać. I have translated it as such that 'powiedzieć' means to tell, to inform, whereas 'kazać' is rather to tell, to direct and but I could have also used here 'rozkazywać' (to command) or nakazać (to order).

This is to show that the ambiguity in the two given sentences may only exist in the English language but the distinction may be clearer when it is translated into another language and it may not appear all that ambiguous as a statement.

I have chosen Polish because unlike English - which is a naming language where words can have more than one meaning - Polish is a describing language where generally one word has one meaning and though having the same root one verb also has one meaning. I posted elsewhere a couple of days ago that Polish is a language which has 96 different verbs meaning 'to shit', and each and every one of them indicate a different way of shitting.

For example you have the root verb 'śrać' [sratch] meaning 'to shit' generally so sram means 'I shit'.

Then you have osrać [osratch] - about to shit so osram means 'I'm about to shit' (which explains why Poles find our lightbulbs funny)

Then you have 'obśrać' - to shit everywhere but in the right place, 'wyśrać' to really shit, and so on.

It's the same with the English verb 'tell' which can be 'powiedzieć' or poinformować' (tell by way of information), 'stwierdzić' (tell, to confirm or validate) 'kazać' (to instruct), 'rozkazywać' (to command), 'nakazać' (to order), przekazać' (to pass on - as in message), and so on and all can be translated back as the one verb 'to tell'.

Now I can guarantee that you can ask someone who is Polish and they will probably translate the original statement differently from the way I have done, and you could ask another Pole who could yet come up with yet another translation, but the same distinction will exist which doesn't exist so clearly when these statements are expressed in English.

Therefore where does the ambiguity lie, is it in the concept or in the language? Because as you can see from my translation into Polish there is no ambiguity between the two statements. The ambiguity is caused by using the same verb 'tell' in both sentences.


< Message edited by stella41b -- 11/3/2008 11:50:14 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/4/2008 2:30:03 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."

Dominants fill a need to order...hence submissives should need to be told what to do
Masters order to fill a need...hence slaves have no choice but to do what they are told.

All sound bites that imply Masters and slaves are a cut above Dominants and submissives

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/4/2008 2:39:58 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		i dont see where anyone has said slaves are better than submissives.  frankly, i would think we each would be happy with the path we each have chosen to walk in life.  only those who know you can judge you.  submissives retain that right to say no.  i sometimes envy them that right.  sometimes.  ~grins~

tazzy

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/4/2008 3:27:23 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Slaves are no better or worse or in fact neither is higher on the totum pole than submissives. Ther are just different and yet not totaly different for the sub and the slave are both submissives. Ther have different dynamics and expectations as well in the form of their submissiveness, they have differing needs. There arfe those sub/slaves who in one set of eyes are submisive and yet in another set of eyes a slave stands there. many slaves start their kink journey as a submissive and later realises they need something mpore than they can find as a sub, they find the deep seated durning sesire to serve and be found pleasing above all else. lets not go down the counter productive path of trying to ascertain who is better. I can tell you who is better. For me within my dynamic and the Victorian Lifestyle, a slave is better for she is psychologically more suited to the type of domestic service I require I require her to have the driving motivation of wanting above all else to be found pleasing by me. However a great Dominatrix friend will tell you that a submissive is the best for her and her dynamic and requirements. Such things depend on people and circumstances. 

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http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/4/2008 3:30:47 AM   
accipitres


Posts: 70
Joined: 1/1/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist


"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."


"Need" can be a verb or a noun.  As a noun, it means "urgent want, as of something requisite: He has no need of your charity."  As a verb, it means "to be under an obligation He need not go." (Dictionary.com)
 
I interpreted it as "A submissive wants to be controlled." and "A slave wants to be obedient."

I'm sure that there are lots of s/s to whom these statements do not apply.

Personally, they rang true.  I like control; it makes me hot.  I obey to keep getting the control, and prompt compliance and cheerful obedience reinforces controlling behavior, and thus encourages more control. I don't actually have any burning desire to be of service or be obedient for their own sake.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/4/2008 6:46:45 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

how is this for a wrench toss into the works

are there differences between the many disciplines of slavery?

tazzy


My guess is that the differences are more household or couple based not any "discipline" based thing. This is one reason I always try to say that when I give definitions and describe how things work, this is from my household and not a generic BDSM relationship.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/4/2008 1:45:25 PM   
whatevahittaches


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."
The submisivness here implies agreement. "Within human relationships there may be a submissive partner. This partner may be trying to appease the other(s) through agreeing to their command. If they are otherwise healthy this partner may be content."
 
There is no "agreement" with the slave. 
 Slavery is the systematic exploitation of labor. As a social-economic system, slavery is a legal or informal institution under which a person (called "a slave") is compelled to work for another (sometimes called "the master" or "slave owner").

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/4/2008 4:11:18 PM   
laura2161


Posts: 254
Joined: 3/8/2008
From: Duluth, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: whatevahittaches
 
There is no "agreement" with the slave. 
 Slavery is the systematic exploitation of labor. As a social-economic system, slavery is a legal or informal institution under which a person (called "a slave") is compelled to work for another (sometimes called "the master" or "slave owner").


Gotta disagree with you on that one. Of course there is an agreement with a slave. She agrees to be your slave; You dont just walk over, grab her by the hair and tell her she is yours.

Maybe in an online fantasy roleplay but sure as heck not in real life.

laura


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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/4/2008 5:01:07 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laura2161

quote:

ORIGINAL: whatevahittaches
 
There is no "agreement" with the slave. 
 Slavery is the systematic exploitation of labor. As a social-economic system, slavery is a legal or informal institution under which a person (called "a slave") is compelled to work for another (sometimes called "the master" or "slave owner").


Gotta disagree with you on that one. Of course there is an agreement with a slave. She agrees to be your slave; You dont just walk over, grab her by the hair and tell her she is yours.

Maybe in an online fantasy roleplay but sure as heck not in real life.

laura



Pity you can stay within the spirit of the comment. Slaves unlike mose submissives, do not work out agreemenrts! IKt is just that there are some commonsence things which are taken as read. besides this, I have yet to meet a slave in real life  who was asked by her Master to be his slave. The salves (including kajiri) all have bedded their master for the privilage of his collar. Perhaps you need to get with the program since most of what you p;ost is both good and enjoyable.



_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/5/2008 12:36:01 PM   
whatevahittaches


Posts: 2
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline 		I am sorry if I wasn't clear. It was my understanding by the quote that "The Slave" was already in agreement to be in servitude (as applied to our lifestyle). That what followed, was not in need of agreement. The definition I propsed was more generic then as applied to this lifestyle. I stand corrected.
Bill

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/5/2008 12:39:02 PM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:

"Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves need to do what they are told."


depends on my mood....for both..

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/5/2008 3:40:06 PM   
laura2161


Posts: 254
Joined: 3/8/2008
From: Duluth, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura2161

quote:

ORIGINAL: whatevahittaches
 
There is no "agreement" with the slave. 
 Slavery is the systematic exploitation of labor. As a social-economic system, slavery is a legal or informal institution under which a person (called "a slave") is compelled to work for another (sometimes called "the master" or "slave owner").


Gotta disagree with you on that one. Of course there is an agreement with a slave. She agrees to be your slave; You dont just walk over, grab her by the hair and tell her she is yours.

Maybe in an online fantasy roleplay but sure as heck not in real life.

laura



Pity you can stay within the spirit of the comment. Slaves unlike mose submissives, do not work out agreemenrts! IKt is just that there are some commonsence things which are taken as read. besides this, I have yet to meet a slave in real life  who was asked by her Master to be his slave. The salves (including kajiri) all have bedded their master for the privilage of his collar. Perhaps you need to get with the program since most of what you p;ost is both good and enjoyable.




So in essence what you are telling me is that a slave- any slave- that turns the head of any Master must become his- as her duty as slave? If there is no 'agreement' in some way or fashion, then you are saying that a slave has absolutely no choice in who is going to Master her.

Hmm..I definitely learn something new every day.

laura


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RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/5/2008 9:28:22 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		wow, i got it all wrong.  i could have sworn my only choice was whom i beg collar from.  seems i dont have that choice either.  nor did i realize i had to "bed" a man to get him to want to collar me.

yes, laura, we learn something new every day.

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/6/2008 6:00:11 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laura2161

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura2161

quote:

ORIGINAL: whatevahittaches
 
There is no "agreement" with the slave. 
 Slavery is the systematic exploitation of labor. As a social-economic system, slavery is a legal or informal institution under which a person (called "a slave") is compelled to work for another (sometimes called "the master" or "slave owner").


Gotta disagree with you on that one. Of course there is an agreement with a slave. She agrees to be your slave; You dont just walk over, grab her by the hair and tell her she is yours.

Maybe in an online fantasy roleplay but sure as heck not in real life.

laura



Pity you can stay within the spirit of the comment. Slaves unlike mose submissives, do not work out agreemenrts! IKt is just that there are some commonsence things which are taken as read. besides this, I have yet to meet a slave in real life  who was asked by her Master to be his slave. The salves (including kajiri) all have bedded their master for the privilage of his collar. Perhaps you need to get with the program since most of what you p;ost is both good and enjoyable.




So in essence what you are telling me is that a slave- any slave- that turns the head of any Master must become his- as her duty as slave? If there is no 'agreement' in some way or fashion, then you are saying that a slave has absolutely no choice in who is going to Master her.

Hmm..I definitely learn something new every day.

laura



I said nothing of the sort but seeing that you are being obtuse, I'll lay it our for you. One of two things happen initially:

Senario 1: Master sees slave and finds out more about her such as if she is collared and if she is "In the market" for a collar.

Senario 2: Slave sees master and is interested so she sets herself up to meet him and talk with him..

Uptill a collar is in place there is a Meet & Greet and getting to know you period. It is in this period where a Master can find out about her and see if she will perhaps suit his home. Likewise she will be finding out about him from direct discussions and even perhaps by asking other people she knows about his reputation with slaves he may have owned in the past. All these things are similar to getting to know someone either at work or just socially in the vi nilla world.

If the Master is smart and experienced, he will ascertain what her linits are and especiall;y with those which match his own, he can reassure her on this end. In the cases in my personal expoerience and with other couple I know well, this period of exploring each other can be very lengthy. It takes time to develope a situation where trust is beginning to form to a point where she may be offered a collar. In this time a great deal which a sub would be negotiating, can be addressed by an open disclosure by both parties about what is and is not acceptable. For example I am lookoing at a slave girl who by now knows a great deal about my expectations (such as the service area). Also because I am upfront about everything, she will know my boundries such as no kids, no animal sex or no scat as well as how I expect her to behave and day to day duties etc. I will explain that if collared she has the right to live and maintain good health. if she is employed she is granted the right to complete her work without my interference and if she has kids she has the right to be a mother. In some cases, people just leave this as a given, but I like to spell it out. She will be told at this time that I maintain the right to ensure that she remains healthy, not placed deliberately at risk, that I may from time to time require that she undertakes training programs to further her education or job skills or to aid in a hobby or for the betterment of her place in the home such as dance or silver service. The slave will be informed at this time that I may at some stage desire to add to the staff of my home by seeking another girl or a boy. I will decide based in part on experience and ability who becomes the senior girl if required. She will be informed that sexually she may expected to service both Lady Nees and muyself either individually or together. Indeed it is possible that as some stage she will be required to sexually service one oif more associates of mine for any number of reasons including that it may at the time please me to see her being put to such use. However she will also know that I will be setting the limits of such service including safe sex. All of this is placed on the table prior to any discussion about a collar so she can make a better decision as to her desire for my collar. provided she understands that all this is possibilities and neither probabilitoes and not fixed, there is no room for her crying foul later. She always has the right to ask for release which will be given without animosity if that is her wish.

I trust that this will give you a better understanding of how it works with no negotiation. Just a simple statement of dos, donts and expectations which the slave either agrees to or refuses at which time the matter is closed.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/6/2008 11:17:29 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		just for my own understanding, that is different how with a submissive as opposed to a slave?

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/6/2008 12:12:01 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Not sure Tazzy, I've never had much to do with sub prefering and oriented towards first kajiri and later slaves in the wider sence.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/6/2008 1:51:21 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		thank you for responding Master IronBear

from what i remember, being a submissive is the same.  two people put what they want onto the table, and see if they match.  the same with a slave.  personally, you and i would not make a great match, and if you told me what your expectations were, i would have to decline.  and i would have that right, as would any submissive.

my only choice is from whom i beg my collar from.  at that point, he has the choice to accept me as his slave or not.  just because a slave does not have a contract doesnt mean their isnt alot of consideration that goes into our relationships.  there are many dynamics, many decisions. 

i dont believe a Master should "offer" a slave a collar.  by the time she feels that urge to beg to be his, he should know if she will be a fit into his life.  if he isnt sure, i would hope he would decline, explain why, and make her wait to beg again until he is sure.  by offering a slave a collar, you are forcing her to make a choice before she is ready.

its my humble opinion that a slave needs to be ready, feel that pull, that craving, and beg steel.  a submissive craves to serve, just like a slave, but they do have a contract and can bow out when things change, according to the rules.  also, according to the same rules, a slave cannot.

here is the rub

we are all women.  when we enter into a relationship with any man, expectations then follow.  when rules change, when minds change, when situations change, a slave will walk just as quickly as a submissive.  i will not say a slave wont walk as quickly as a submissive, nor will a submissive walk as quickly as a slave.  by that point, we are simply women.  just because you dont make a slave a "promise" when you change, she has to then reconsider her place at your feet.  each and every time.  or at least i do.

tazzy

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: -=Submissives need to be told what to do. Slaves ne... - 11/6/2008 4:28:48 PM   
laura2161


Posts: 254
Joined: 3/8/2008
From: Duluth, GA
Status: offline 		I was not being obtuse. I also thank you for your in depth answer.

I paid close attention to your last sentences.... Either the slave accepts or refuses ((the agreement))  to become a Master's slave.

Kinda sounds like what I said a few posts above. I also know you and I will never agree on the wording or verbage, though I still enjoy your posts.

Have a great night-
laura

PS...(Waves hi to tazzy)   :-)



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Profile   Post #: 100
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