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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 9:28:12 AM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mc1234

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I've yet to find one piece of information that provides a medically verifiable experience of an organic and uncurable ailment being fixed via faith based healing.

Well, therein lies the rub, so to speak - you want facts to base the faith on. It's not going to happen, not in a scientific study or anything that would make you feel comfortable with it. Or if it does exist, I've never heard of it.

I'm not looking to justify a faith off facts. I am just looking for facts. Period.

We're no longer talking about faith in a God that cannot be proven or disproven, but rather an actual practice that allegedly has physical results that we can all verify.

I think the assertion that pray has cured blindness and cancer is defiently worth investigating and verifying and if it can't be done, then the Alpha course has no right to use such assertions to advocate a practice that has resulted in deaths from a lack of real medical treatment.

I find the claim to baring witness to such extruding feats as arguments for it's validity to be very disturbing.

Thanks for your post.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 9:29:45 AM

Musicmystery

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Essentially, believers will testify that it works, except all those times it doesn't work.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 10:01:56 AM

mc1234

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I think the assertion that pray has cured blindness and cancer is defiently worth investigating and verifying and if it can't be done, then the Alpha course has no right to use such assertions to advocate a practice that has resulted in deaths from a lack of real medical treatment.

I find the claim to baring witness to such extruding feats as arguments for it's validity to be very disturbing.

I agree.

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Post #: 23

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 10:06:55 AM

philosophy

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FR

...placebo is a powerful force......

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Post #: 24

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 12:39:55 PM

Hippiekinkster

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SilverMark, I had surgery for a detached retina in December 2006, and the pain from that was excrutiating. A few days after the surgery, I developed either a cluster headache or trigeminal neuralgia. That is my 10 on the pain scale. Used to be a kidney stone. I couldn't handle light or loud sound at all. I could wave my hand over my temple and set off a wave of pain. Some days I took 140mg. or so of oxycodone, which barely helped. Aspirin, tylenol, none of that stuff worked. The only thing that worked was alcohol. The pain was so bad that I was shaking, crying, moaning, sweating, and a couple times I pissed myself. I seriously contemplated suicide.

I would have tried anything, too. Anything. I empathize with you.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 2:12:15 PM

SilverMark

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Like nothing I have ever experienced!!!!...and hope no one ever does!!!!!...

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 5:17:17 PM

ThatDaveGuy69

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I'll take my chances with the AMA.

~Dave

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 9:16:09 PM

candystripper

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What would *I* do if *I* were gravely ill? I have had my own introduction to the wonderful world of pain -- Gawd not like SM or HK but ya enough -- my ansswer is ANYTHING. Wouldn't matter one damned bit to me if relief came from a pill or a chant. Could come from the tooth fairy for all I care.

I would not see my MD for more scripts if I went into flare agan -- no matter what they give me, the narocotics have *zero* effect until I get a morphine shot in the ER. The MD won't admit me to get on a morphine drip because only terminally ill people can have them (dunno why, but that's what he said).

I cannot figure out why they can 'administter general anestesia' to me like anyone else, but they cannot find anything in the pharamacoipia to manage my pain. Next time, if there is one, I'll be visiting the accupunturist, etc.

candystripper

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Post #: 28

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 9:25:12 PM

marie2

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I don't believe it's so much the prayer or a god, but the focus and belief, and the power of the human brain.

You might be interested in a book called: The Divine Matrix. Gregg Braden.

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Post #: 29

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 9:39:36 PM

manxcat

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Healing by prayer (or faith if you will) is not uncommon in the Native American world. I have seen and been a recipient of such healing. The most memorable was at a sundance. Our firekeeper collapsed in massive abdominal pain. He was taken to the tree, and the medicine man, with all his helpers, and the rest of the sundancers prayed. After about 15 minutes, the pain seemed to have alleviated quite a bit, but he was taken to a hospital anyway. When he came back a few hours later, he had quite a story. The doctor has found the residue of a massive or many kidney stone(s), but no stone(s). There was also no evidence of its' having passed. They released him with a caution to take it easy for a few days.
Prayer works. On many things. It has been said that if enough people would pray for the world to change, it will. Now if we will all pray for world peace, what beauty and joy that will bring. I am sure if you google it, you will find many documented instances of healing through prayer and faith.

manxcat

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 9:45:05 PM

knees2you

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To watch a Lady get up and walk around, after just
having a Heart Attack is Faith enough.

She told me that She knew it wasn't her time
that God had other plans.

On a scale of 1 to 10 ten being the worst,
she had an 8 and Doctors where Just Stunned,
that she was even walking and talking.

Always, knees

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Post #: 31

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/4/2008 11:19:36 PM

NuevaVida

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Two personal stories here:

A very close uncle of mine had lung cancer a few years ago. He had his lung removed and after the surgery his body went into shock. He was in a coma for a month. Every day we all sat by his bed, talking to him, singing to him, touching him, and some family members prayed to him. His odds did not look good. In his coma, he developed a blood infection, his heart stopped which required defibrillation, and he developed pneumonia in his surviving lung. We didn't give up on him and didn't lose hope. One day I received a call while at work, from my cousin (his daughter), crying, saying "Dad just woke up."

During his many long days of recovering from such an ordeal, I spent a good deal of time talking to him. I asked if he remembered the coma, and what the experience was. He said for the most part, no, but he did remember an intense and indescribable feeling of a fight he was losing, and then he said, "But I felt you. I can't describe it but I felt this overwhelming power of love from my family, and it pulled me out. I have no doubt that without it, I would have let go."

This is a man who is not faithful in the religious sense, doesn't go to church, doesn't want to talk about religion, etc. No one laid claim to "faith healing" here, but what the human spirit can do is amazing. Power of the mind, heart and spirit can do incredible things.

When my dad was so ill my family through a party for him to celebrate his life and who/what he was to us. It was a day to honor him. All five kids, all in-laws, and all 6 grandkids (along with my mother, of course) hung out with him at my brother's house and doted on him. My parents were devout Catholics. The rest of us aren't, but when my mother suggested we lay hands on him and pray/meditate/whatever, we all did. That night he said he was healed. Not from the cancer, but "My heart is healed." His whole life he suffered from depression, anxiety, and self hatred. He never trusted that his kids loved him, because he didn't think he could be loved. In saying his heart was healed he explained that for the first time in his life, he felt incredible love - from us and for himself. He said he had never felt so peaceful in his life. He forgave himself for all his wrongdoings and ill thoughts. He said, "This is what happiness is." He said when he felt his whole family touch him like that, something happened - he felt a physical buzz in his body and his heart opened up.

He died 4 days later. What greater experience than to die filled with love and peace. He didn't care about the cancer. He knew it would kill him. But at the age of 77, his heart opened up. I don't think he would have experienced that without us all touching him and loving him.

But these kinds of things can't really be put in medical books. I don't know what you call it - energy? Love? Something else? I don't know if it matters, other than in trying to explain such experiences to others.

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Post #: 32

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 2:12:53 PM

HisNani

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Some of faith based healing is the placebo effect: want it enough, it'll happen. Some people will truly believe that headaches or backaches and such will go away with so many people praying for them, and it works for them- because they deeply want it to. Whether it's because of their faith or whatever. Your brain can do seriously powerful things.

Getting bopped on the head by a "holy man" who "banishes the devil of cancer" from your gal-bladder? Not so much gonna work, in my book. It might mean the person heals faster, since the body has been known to do such things, but that doesn't mean the cancer is going to go away. I seriously doubt it will.

Also, there was an article in the news awhile back...this little girl who was like 11 died because her parents wouldn't take her to a hospital. She had diabetes. They kept insisting that God would cure her, and all they did was pray for her. They never ever sought medical help. http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/29556929.html I haven't read up on it lately, but that's the original article. My first reaction had been disappointment that such a young girl had lost her life because her parents were so caught up in their faith. Many people that involved in their faith do still seek medical attention, because they believe that God provided the means and the people to heal others. But...prayer curing diabetes, not so much going to happen. Sometimes you really do need a doctor.

I am Wiccan, and I fully stand by healing as much as possible through natural means. Yoga, meditation, herbs, teas...those work wonders...and sometimes they are the best ways to heal. I'd rather soak my sore feet in epsom salts than go to a doctor to get some salve to slather on them that doesn't work as well or has weirdo side effects like...nausea or you turn purple.
(side note: anyone else notice those medicines that really cause worse side effects than the actual condition they're supposedly treating? migraines: may cause sudden death, constipation, diarrhea, stomach bleeding, aneurisms, and in rare cases mild migraines. ha. not me, man.) But serious things you should honestly get medical treatment for. Otherwise, things like the death or that poor child will happen...and that poor thing probably suffered quite a bit. My brother was diagnosed a couple years ago with diabetes type 2 (juvy diabetes) and he'd been miserable. I think the important thing with faith based healing is knowing when it is and isn't appropriate to use.

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Post #: 33

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 2:18:54 PM

LadyEllen

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Here's a story from my teens when I was first studying runic magic.

My mother at that time had bad back problems - she could hardly get out of bed in the morning and then would spend two hours hunched over and in pain. I decided to see whether a runic spell would have any effect.

So I wrote one and unknown to her put it under the mattress of her bed. She was immediately relieved - until time came to change the bed, the spell was discovered and removed and her problem returned. Meanwhile my problems started with a father who made it clear that all this was most unmanly etc etc etc

Interesting in all this was that the patient had absolutely no idea of the presence of the spell.

E

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 4:38:16 PM

HisNani

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=) I didn't say spells didn't work. I was just saying that most of the time it's placebo effect. Not always though. If I believed spells didn't work...would I be Wiccan?

Awesome story though, very cool

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"Knowing is not enough;we must apply. Willing is not enough;we must do."-Johann WolfgangvonGoethe

"A successful man builds a firm foundation of the bricks that other people throw at him."

"That's very Zen of you, you must smoke pot."-George,DLM

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Post #: 35

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 4:42:05 PM

LadyEllen

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Sorry HN - wasnt directed at you specifically - to be honest, didnt even read that far through the thread but kind of followed on anyway!

E

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 4:43:19 PM

DomKen

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I'll say it then, faith healing is bunk. It doesn't happen. Anecdotes aren't evidence.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 4:50:31 PM

FullCircle

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If you think it works it works. There is more to healing than just the physical symptoms. When a patient asks a doctor "how bad is it" the doctor hardly ever says "it's bad" because the doctor knows psychology can play a big part in recovery sometimes.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 5:15:50 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'll say it then, faith healing is bunk. It doesn't happen. Anecdotes aren't evidence.

Anecdotal evidence is evidence.

Moreover, the documentary evidence of such "faith healing" is rather more substantial than you might want to admit. The Roman Catholic Church, when considering candidates for sainthood, requires two verifiable "miracles" to be attributed to the intercession of the candidate. The miracles are often of a healing or medical nature. While I do not wish to express an opinion on the interpretation of these miracles as being of saintly or divine origin, the investigations thereof provide a significant body of documentation on at least one form of "faith healing", sufficient to dissuade against a blanket rejection of the notion.

Saying faith healing never happens is every bit as unscientific as claiming that faith healing always works. Neither proposition has been proven absolutely.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 6:10:38 PM

oceanwynds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

I have a different view of faith based healing. Rather then a devine miracle taking place i have always felt it is the belief that healing will occur...thus activating the amazing healing powers of the mind.

I tend to agree. What I find hard to swallow is when people make the claim that they are healers and take the credit.

the.dark.

A healer is nothing more then a conduit. That is all they can be.

Regarding healing, it doesn't matter what or who you believe in or don't. Never works that way, just people love to claim it.

(in reply to RCdc)

Post #: 40

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