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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 5:13:19 AM

catize

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Many of the same symptoms and ailments that have been cured or healed via faith based healing have also been healed and cured via magic elixirs, herbals remedies, and 70's disco music.

if you believe faith/magic elixirs etc will work, the mind can heal the body.

If I believe in Lydia Pinkem's Tonic, it is no guarantee of a cure.
I could believe in my doctor and medicine and still not be healed.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 5:26:11 AM

catize

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

I've seen before and afters. But what do I know.....

Grace

In my post I acknowldged that it does happen, so we both know it is possible.
But neither you or I know for sure why it happens.
I don't have an explanation. You attribute it to faith, and I'm willing to be okay with that.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 5:30:39 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
Many of the same symptoms and ailments that have been cured or healed via faith based healing have also been healed and cured via magic elixirs, herbals remedies, and 70's disco music.

if you believe faith/magic elixirs etc will work, the mind can heal the body.

If I believe in Lydia Pinkem's Tonic, it is no guarantee of a cure.
I could believe in my doctor and medicine and still not be healed.

i said it CAN...i did not say it is a given
The human mind has healing powers that are amazing.

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Post #: 63

RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 6:30:37 AM

thornhappy

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(to go back to T's post on headaches, allopathic practises, and never seeing a doctor)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

And migranes have been traced back to food allergies, but the data on that is really hard to find. It is out there though, just stop eating this and that and they go away. But the allopathics want to treat you, they don't even cure you. They don't even call it medicine anymore, they call it medication. Some of the migrane medications are priced around twenty bucks a pill, and the doctor is a shill. Are they going to tell you the cause, like not to eat cheese or strawberries or something like that. If you had their house payment, would you ?
T

Migraines are kind of a firmware problem. They are congenital and often hereditary (one of the first questions a neurologist asks is "do you have any family members with migraine?" Mine go back 3 generations.)

In migraines, the brain has unstable and screwed-up neurotransmitters (involving seratonin); there's also evidence that there's too much excitability in one of the facial nerves. Some foods can trigger headaches, but migraines are not due to food allergies (or sinus problems). Medscape is a great resource for some of the latest research (it's a free site that only requires registration.)

Since the "cure" for migraines doesn't exist yet (due to the causation), all you can do is try to rebalance the seratonin system, or reduce the excitability of the nervous system.

Now, on the never going to the doctor thing...would you go if you were going blind? Losing your coordination? Losing your hearing, and almost fainting when you stood up?

I have a congenital brain and skull malformation (Chiari malformation) that caused exactly those symptoms. It can't be fixed with medication. You need a 4-part neurosurgery to fix it.

If you did have cancer and declined treatment (I can think of several types where I'd do the same thing), eventually you would need medication for pain (palliative care).

thornhappy

< Message edited by thornhappy -- 11/9/2008 6:36:02 AM >

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 6:34:17 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Saying someone was healed by prayer or exorcism or other bunk requires evidence.

Saying that prayer cannot possibly heal requires the same evidence. What evidence have you to offer?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I'm saying there is no evidence in favor and plenty of negative evidence. Therefore until some positive scientific evidence is forth coming there is no such thing.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 6:53:02 AM

catize

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quote:

i said it CAN...i did not say it is a given
The human mind has healing powers that are amazing.

You did say 'can', my bad!

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 11:09:18 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Therefore until some positive scientific evidence is forth coming there is no such thing.

That is both unscientific and categorically untrue. The presence or absence of evidence has no bearing on the existence or non-existence of a phenomenon.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 11:27:16 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'm saying there is no evidence in favor and plenty of negative evidence...

Let's be careful not to throw away the baby with the bathwater. I have no brief to offer either way on the efficacy of prayer, but there is no shortage of scientific evidence for the efficacy of belief. "Placebo" effects are real physiological effects. The power of belief is extraordinary.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 11/9/2008 11:29:27 AM >

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 11:28:49 AM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: catize

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

I've seen before and afters. But what do I know.....

Grace

In my post I acknowldged that it does happen, so we both know it is possible.
But neither you or I know for sure why it happens.
I don't have an explanation. You attribute it to faith, and I'm willing to be okay with that.

And likewise, I'm more than willing to acknowledge that there is more I don't know, than that I do no.

There comes a point where you can drive yourself nuts looking for hard and fast, documented out the ying-yang, irrefutable proof....or take what evidence there is, and what bit of scientific and medical documentation can be found, and simply give thanks that sometimes wonderful things do happen.

I'm not opposed to exploring the how and why, by any means. Be that as it may, I don't think less of those who simply accept what they have received with a thankful heart, a lightened step, and improved longevity or quality of life.

In reading this thread, it seems to me that the majority of folks, if not on the same page, are at least somewhere in the same chapter. I find that encouraging.

The beautiful thing about truth, regardless of where it is found, is that it can always stand the light of scrutiny. Scrutiny isn't a bad thing.

Grace

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 1:54:07 PM

LadyEllen

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If by way of repeated double blind scientific testing, a medical drug is found to be effective on 10% of patients suffering from some condition, surely the evidence for the efficacy of the treatment should be regarded as anecdotal if we are to also hold that the 10% of people who benefit from faith healing is purely anecdotal? And more than that perhaps, because of the nature of the scientific testing, the anecdotal evidence for the drug should be held to be more anecdotal than the anecdotal evidence for the faith healing?

I'm not saying this is my position, but it seems a little disingenuous to hold one treatment as anecdotal and the other as not in such circumstances.

E

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 4:40:25 PM

MadRabbit

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Saying someone was healed by prayer or exorcism or other bunk requires evidence.

Saying that prayer cannot possibly heal requires the same evidence. What evidence have you to offer?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.

I'm saying there is no evidence in favor and plenty of negative evidence. Therefore until some positive scientific evidence is forth coming there is no such thing.

It depends on how scientific you want your evidence.

As I mentioned before, all the evidence here is the result of selective affirmation. Prayer is being sourced as the cause of the healing, because it proceeded the result.

However, this is really no different then what many nutritionists do when attempting to discover what a particular nutrient does to the human body, because it's very difficult, bordering on impossible in some cases, to have a controlled test.

I've encountered too many testimonies in the last few days to reduce the successes of faith based healing down to merely probability. (Ex. 1000 people have cancer, 50 of them pray, 1 of the one's who prayed has a spontaneous remission, spontaneous remission is attributed to the prayer instead of merely coincidence)

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