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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 6:15:58 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: HisNani
(side note: anyone else notice those medicines that really cause worse side effects than the actual condition they're supposedly treating? migraines: may cause sudden death, constipation, diarrhea, stomach bleeding, aneurisms, and in rare cases mild migraines. ha. not me, man.)

As a side note, I've been told by several of my neurologists that untreated migraine leads to an increased chance of strokes.

thornhappy

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 6:26:54 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		On the plus side though those migraine sufferers are at less risk of breast cancer according to recent studies.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 6:59:33 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		There is so much to say I almost declined.

People forget things.  First of all, like many organisms on this planet we have the ability to heal ourselves, if nourished properly. Yes there are deadly diseases caused by small organisms which are the exception. I am committed to not going to doctors for ailments. Yank my bleeding carcass from a wrecked car or something, OK, but if it came on by itself it better go away by itself.

As I said there is alot to say but I'm sure you are all getting tired of these week long posts. But the fact is that my body and mind KNOW for a fact that if they cause problems I shall not see a professional. I believe this keeps them in line so to speak. I mean I am committed to this, not like most guys who will go once they can no longer walk, I mean period. It is my life and my decision, and not only do I believe that my body and whatever parts of my mind control it really do know that they are not going to be helped by modern medicine has had a positive effect. That is sheer will, as I hold nio deity nor religion in me. Be it known now, if I get cancer I will probably not know it, and if I do I will tell the doctor "Well thank you" and walk out the door.

It is a personal conviction of mine greater than any other and so far at 48 it has not been tested fully. I fixed my own back problems, and a few other things. I am pain free and I don't get headaches. On the rare occasion my head hurts, it goes away in a few minutes. This without the supposed help of any drug.

And migranes have been traced back to food allergies, but the data on that is really hard to find. It is out there though, just stop eating this and that and they go away. But the allopathics want to treat you, they don't even cure you. They don't even call it medicine anymore, they call it medication. Some of the migrane medications are priced around twenty bucks a pill, and the doctor is a shill. Are they going to tell you the cause, like not to eat cheese or strawberries or something like that. If you had their house payment, would you ?

I don't recommend anyone else do this, because I believe that I was very lucky to have been born with a very efficient body chemistry, and over the years have developed a superior immune system. This does not happen overnight and it would be like taking a kid who just got their temporary driver's license and throwing them into the cockpit of an aircraft. It took years and suffering to get where I am. I had friends and family who threatened to drag me to the hospital but I defrayed their goals in short order, by threats and other means. I told them that I would find the strength to pick up a gun and shoot them, and I meant it. This is my personal belief, my personal conviction and my decision.

So unless you have a similar background I would say it is unwise for you to completely shun medical assistance. I have had flu and pneumonia so bad that I had to crawl to the bathroom, and considered diapers, and not for kinky reasons.

The only time I faultered was when I got the subsequent ear infections. I did not want to be deaf. But the disease itself had already been beaten without drug one or any treatment whatsoever.

When my day comes to die, fine.

I also believe that when it comes to anything faith based, it is possible, but we live in a society without any real reasoning on the part of it's inhabitants. I mean if you have a headache and take an aspirin, you think the pill cured it. What if you get a headache and drink a bunch of water and the headache goes away, is water then considered to be the cure ? I know people around here are a bit smarter than that, but as such should be able to see my point. If not ask. I just don't want to make it take three weeks to read my post.

T

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 7:45:27 PM   
Maya2001


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From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

The broken bones bit tends to make me think, but there is cases of broken bones healing in the span of 6 days when it would normally take 6 weeks without any usage of pray nor any explanation according to modern science.


A lot depends on the severity and the angle of the fracture

My son had two complete fracture of the 2  bones in his wrist that were casted sitting at a 35 degree angle..The ER doctor said it was fine as it ...I felt it to unacceptable and had concerns about function so asked for a second opinion in which we were referred to an orthopedic surgeon who agreed it was not acceptable  ..so a week after his accident he was in ER to have both bone broken  because bone knitting will start  in around 3 days..the reason for 6 weeks casting is that is how long is takes for total new bone growth to complete but fusion already is starts in the first few days
because my sons fractures were 180 degrees across the bone  there was still a chance of them slipping out of place after the resting and recasting .. so he needed to back in with in 3 days and again in a week for xrays  to ensure the bones stayed in place  and after a week they removed the heavier plaster cast and put him in a fiberglass cast that is more durable and lighter for the balance of the healing

I can understand how a break after say 5 or 6 days may look like they have never been broken, due to the initial bone fusion  but if xrayed again in 6 weeks the fracture sites if a complete fracture not just a crack  will have a bulbous looking growth around the bone  so would look different that at say 6  days

I can show an example on a complete fracture with new bone grown in one of my dog who was an exracer and fractured his hock  --the leg curled on top of the other has significant new bone growth http://s3.photobucket.com/albums/y53/mleg2001/?action=view&current=23bb800e329a2fb0d9a597a1f2c5e99b-1.jpg  his bones were slightly offset so the leg has a bend in break site  but the new bone growth often tends to be strong then the original hollow bone  so he is still able to use and run on it without it breaking even though the bones are not properly aligned

even my sons wrist 20 years later has a bumps were the 2 bones fused and new bone grew over the break to encapsulate



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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 7:51:58 PM   
amelliagrace


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit

Now, of course, the explanation for this lack of results was apparently the inconsistency of God's answers to prayers which is apparently quite common in faith based healing.

However...

The sheer experience of being around so many people, many of them quite intelligent and educated, who sincerely believed this to be a valid practice combined with the large number of testimonies of incidents has, to be honest, shaken me up a bit. I can't sleep at 2am, because for the first time in my life, I have encountered serious reconsideration on my Atheist stance.

So, in addition to the research I am doing on this, I was hoping to get opinions, experiences, information and sources from anyone who cared to offer any regarding the question of...

Is this bullshit?


What I know for sure:
I've both seen and personally experienced things for which there are no better terms than "miracle" and/or "faith based".  These include, but are not limited to;
1.  An aortic aneurism the size of a baseball which was present, confirmed by multiple scans taken at differing times, all consistant...and then shortly thereafter, just prior to VERY risky surgery, shown to be completely gone.
 
2.  Tumor of the brain stem, clearly visible, and a few days later, post "mega prayer" by people in roughly 35 states, no longer present.  Multiple followups show no tumor.
 
What I don't know for sure:
Whether or not spontaneous healing would have occured without prayer intervention.
 
What I've heard speculated:
Everything from "Act of God" to "Tapping into the life source of the planet", to "The Universe responding to the positive energies of many individuals all directed in the same direction at one time'.:, to "Hell if I know, but I'll take it and be thankful."
 
What I believe:
1.  "God", "The Universe", "The Creator", or whatever you choose to call "It", is wayyyy too big for my mind to completely understand...but for me, the existance of same is a given..."faith", IOW.
 
2.  The Force mentioned above does not always respond in the manner requested, for reasons known only to itself.  Faith tells me I wouldn't understand the answer if it was given to me, but I hope to one day ask FatherMother God about it anyway.
 
3.  Such occurances are not limited to the Christian faith, or to any particular branch of any particular faith.  Personally, I'm glad to know that the Head Honcho doesn't seem to have a few select offspring that are doted upon.
 
4.  When it happens, the best thing to do is say "Thank you", and go about living the rest of your life worthy of the gift.
 
JMO and YMMV -
Grace
 
 

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 11/8/2008 8:20:55 PM >

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 9:03:39 PM   
scarlethiney


Posts: 492
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		Yes MR I believe in healing prayer and in our ability to channel healing energy to ourselves and others.

I took "metaphysics" classes for several years with a man who channeled hands on healing among other things. Myself and a group of friends thought it might be "interesting" to take metaphysics and so we attended classes weekly. These classes opened and changed our minds about the ability we have to heal ourselves and the ability others have to channel healing.
Our teacher did not call himself a "healer" or take credit for the healing nor did he ever charge for these services. He believed we are all channels or receivers and that this ability comes from God, your "Angels" a higher power, a Goddess, the earth or whomever you feel is your source.
One week I  had a terrible kidney infection and had just started taking antibiotics before going to class. I asked our teacher to channel healing through me. He stood behind me and put his hands on my shoulders.  I felt an amazing heat come from his hands and pass through me like warm liquid. Perhaps I wanted him to be able to heal me, perhaps I really believed he could. I never took another antibiotic and knew I didn't need one. To this day I do believe he was the channel or receiver for the healing energy he shared with me.
I saw this happen many more times during the years we studied with him. I think what impressed me about him was that he never took credit for this energy he shared nor would he ever expect to be compensated.  It was simply something he believed in and wanted to help others with. He never occurred to him to doubt this ability or its source.  Belief is powerful .
I  believe that we create much if not all our own illness and are just as capable of healing ourselves when we finally realize and trust in our ability to do so.

scarlet



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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 9:10:53 PM   
MissSCD


Posts: 1185
Joined: 3/10/2007
Status: offline 		If you are so against faith healing, why are you attending this church?  It sounds to me you are crying out for salvation.
You have to submit totally to this "power" to be able to be healed. 
Faith healing is not magic. 
It is God at work.   How you perceive God is the problem, not faith.
 
Regards, MissSCD

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 9:26:15 PM   
catize


Posts: 3020
Joined: 3/7/2006
Status: offline 		Okay, here are my thoughts in no particular order.
(These are my views only, albeit very strongly held opinions.)
 
Some people will manifest physical symptoms in response to stress and anxiety.  Headaches, back pain, etc.  The more dramatic can include paralysis and blindness.  It is referred to as a conversion disorder.  The emotional trauma of an event will not be sensed  as anxiety, but will be ‘converted’ to the body until the mind can process and face the traumatic event.
In these instances, I believe that touch and maybe even the loving attention of a person or group can ease the anxiety and help the mind heal.  When that happens, the physical problems resolve.  It is a wonderful thing, and for the person suffering can certainly feel like a ‘miracle’.
 
My skepticism would kick in when, sitting in a group with a focused agenda on convincing others that they have witnessed a true healing.  I would ask for the name of the person who had been cured and require documentation that their condition had been medically chronicled prior to the ‘healing’.  I would also want to see some follow-up documentation: 3 months later, a year later, 10 years later. 
 
There are, in fact, documented cases; a man who had been in a coma for ten years regained consciousness.  A woman, who had been blind for all her adult life, woke up one morning and had sight.  These were reported in the media and were backed up by medical facts. 
 
My issue with faith based healing is that it seems rather arbitrary.  So “God” heals one, but leaves a thousand others to suffer or die.  I often wonder what that does to the psyche of the ones who are not spared.  As much as they had faith and believed, I wonder if it causes them to conclude it is their own ‘fault’ because they did not have a strong enough faith or belief; they fought hard but it wasn’t a good enough fight.
 
And spare me the rationalization that “it wasn’t ‘God’s’ will.”  That’s an easy answer which again makes me wonder….if it is based on faith, and the depth of that faith is equal, then shouldn’t it work the same for all?
 
Any spontaneous remission of a chronic or life threatening illness is indeed a miracle.  However, I would be very careful to avoid getting swept up in the artfully staged emotionalism of a group such as you are attending.  The group facilitators probably have learned some basic psychology skills and subtly manipulate the attendees.   If these folks could heal the sick, why are they sitting in a group trying to convince others that it can be done rather than going to hospitals, hospices, and homes to provide their healing services?

< Message edited by catize -- 11/8/2008 9:36:56 PM >

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 9:27:09 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

I'll say it then, faith healing is bunk. It doesn't happen. Anecdotes aren't evidence.

Anecdotal evidence is evidence. 

Moreover, the documentary evidence of such "faith healing" is rather more substantial than you might want to admit.  The Roman Catholic Church, when considering candidates for sainthood, requires two verifiable "miracles" to be attributed to the intercession of the candidate.  The miracles are often of a healing or medical nature.  While I do not wish to express an opinion on the interpretation of these miracles as being of saintly or divine origin, the investigations thereof provide a significant body of documentation on at least one form of "faith healing", sufficient to dissuade against a blanket rejection of the notion.

Saying faith healing never happens is every bit as unscientific as claiming that faith healing always works.  Neither proposition has been proven absolutely.


Bull.

Saying someone was healed by prayer or exorcism or other bunk requires evidence. Show me and the rest of the world the before and after tests etc. If you can The Amazing Randi has one million dollars for you.

What we have here, and what we always have when this subject comes up, is a bunch of anecdotes. When investigated these always turn out to be quite a bit less than claimed. Either the condition was already cured, quite common in cancer healings where surgery had been done or chemo had been going on and multiple tests showed the cancer to be entering remission before the so called miracle, or the symptoms were still present and being ignored or the entire claim is fraudulent, Benny Hinn's "healings" for instance.

As to the Catholic Church's so called miraclesm, look into the "miracles" attributed to Mother Theresa.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 9:45:51 PM   
catize


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quote:

 Anecdotal evidence is evidence.   


quote:

  Saying someone was healed by prayer or exorcism or other bunk requires evidence. Show me and the rest of the world the before and after tests etc.


 
Agreed.
Anecdotal offerings are not empirical evidence.


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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 10:20:54 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
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Status: offline 		I've seen before and afters.  But what do I know.....
 
Grace

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 10:57:09 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Anecdotal offerings are not empirical evidence.

Yet they are still evidence.


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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/8/2008 10:58:25 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Saying someone was healed by prayer or exorcism or other bunk requires evidence.

Saying that prayer cannot possibly heal requires the same evidence.  What evidence have you to offer?

Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 2:33:26 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		But what proves what ? My head hurt a few months ago, I drank a beer and it went away. Therefore beer is the cure for headaches.

There is the proof.

T

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 4:17:07 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissSCD

If you are so against faith healing, why are you attending this church?  It sounds to me you are crying out for salvation.
You have to submit totally to this "power" to be able to be healed. 
Faith healing is not magic. 
It is God at work.   How you perceive God is the problem, not faith.
 
Regards, MissSCD


I'm going for intellectual discussion and to attempt to learn more about the Christian faith since it interests me. It's an education course and I am going there to observe.

For example, I am performing an observation and study on pompous elitists who somehow manage to condescend to people with an air of complete righteousness on subjects they possibly could not factually know the answers about.

Someone has to do it rather than just drink the Kool-aid.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 4:19:54 AM   
MadRabbit


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Anecdotal offerings are not empirical evidence.

Yet they are still evidence.



Technically, it's not in a scientific sense because it's whats called selective affirmation. Your sourcing the cause of the healing to prayer simply because prayer proceeded the healing.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 4:29:36 AM   
JustDarkness


Posts: 1461
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline 		We have a "famous" local faith healer. She has to go to court now, because"an other party believes she didn't send people to a normal docter..when they had cancer and died.
Fait healers are accepted here..aslong as they are realistic in their capabilities. If they don't see progress they have to send their costumers to a docter.
Personally I see it often as placebo effect...but if that works....then it works.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 4:42:52 AM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		As an Atheist who asks questions and takes a logical objective viewpoint to this (as opposed to just screaming IT'S JESUS! on a message board), the premise that it's the work of a Deity is negated by these facts....
  • These phenomena can be found in various religions even ones with a pantheon of deities or who don't really worship a Deity (nature or internal based).
  • These phenomena of spontaneous remissions and accelerated recovery happen in cases that are not specific to prayer.
  • Many of the same symptoms and ailments that have been cured or healed via faith based healing have also been healed and cured via magic elixirs, herbals remedies, and 70's disco music.

So in the end, while this certainly pushes me to question the solidarity of my own position as an Atheist, I think it's more probable that the source of this lies in human psychology rather an external Deity.

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 4:48:11 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I think it's more probable that the source of this lies in human psychology rather an external Deity.


Its both, I suspect.

E

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RE: Faith Based Healing - 11/9/2008 4:51:14 AM   
sirsholly


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
  • Many of the same symptoms and ailments that have been cured or healed via faith based healing have also been healed and cured via magic elixirs, herbals remedies, and 70's disco music.



if you believe faith/magic elixirs etc will work, the mind can heal the body.

< Message edited by sirsholly -- 11/9/2008 4:53:57 AM >

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