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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 11:06:36 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


Things said which are "humiliating" often are a pathway to self-esteem. Marine Corps Drill Instructors are masters of the art of "positive" humiliation.



Huh?  I was in the miltary.  I for one would like to know how calling someone a "dumb fucking maggot" or "lower than pond scum"  builds esteem?  The "general motive" in basic training is to beat you down into submission so you obey everyone lol.  Later on in the training is where the esteem building takes place confindence courses and the like.

BadOne

Key word is "pathway". If you listen to what Marine Corps Drill Instructors say, everything that is said is geared towards extracting the very last bit of effort out of the recruit. Getting maximum effort out of the recruit is what gets said recruit over Mount Motherfucker and similar obstacles--and yes, that is where the self-esteem begins to grow.

Self-esteem itself can only come from accomplishment. That is ever and always the order of things. Verbal humiliation that motivates the individual to accomplish will, over time, produce the accomplishments that will give rise to improved self-esteem.

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 11:11:40 AM   
JustDarkness


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Status: offline 		How much choice in the army do you have when some one shouts at you or humiliates you?
Propably you just have to accept it.

If it was "the way" to motivate people..all companies would use it.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/4/2008 11:12:59 AM >

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 11:20:58 AM   
celticlord2112


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ORIGINAL: JustDarkness

How much choice in the army do you have when some one shouts at you or humiliates you?
Propably you just have to accept it.

If it was "the way" to motivate people..all companies would use it.

There is no "the way" to motivate people. There are several ways. And if verbal humiliation did not produce good results, the Marine Corps would not have the reputation it enjoys today.

As for choice.....more than you might think, just not when you might think. Every recruit is given quite ample information of how boot camp will be--including seeing videos of Drill Instructors in action. They know before they sign on the dotted line what's coming, and they choose to accept it. One can draw a rough parallel to the way a slave chooses to surrender herself.

Finally, it must always be emphasized that the goal is effort leading to accomplishment--get the recruit to do one more pull up, one more sit up, run the o-course one more time and just a little bit faster, to keep going and keep pushing until the end. If the words do not lead to renewed effort to accomplish an objective, they will not have beneficial effect on one's self-esteem; however, this applies to kind words of praise as well.

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 11:33:52 AM   
JustDarkness


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quote:

There is no "the way" to motivate people.


agree  but there are better ways propably if you look at the fact how many companies use the military way.
I think sometimes humiliation is just the easy way to motivate. We humans have it eassier to humilate some one then to compliment.
Especially in the military with all the tough rough guys.

Do they really know that some one will humiliate them when they sign a dotted line? I doubt it. 
They know it will be hard...but humiliation?
I am curious how many people come out of it with problems from the motivation speeches.

and yes for soem it propably will help. And they will use the treatment onto others too propably.

< Message edited by JustDarkness -- 11/4/2008 11:35:03 AM >

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 12:00:24 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Do they really know that some one will humiliate them when they sign a dotted line? I doubt it.
They know it will be hard...but humiliation?

If they don't know, they weren't paying attention.

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 12:22:54 PM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CarrieO

Can verbal humiliation be used as a tool to "build up" a person?  
If someone has experience with this, on either side, please explain. 

*I did do a search on this and found many threads on humiliation and one on verbal but no real answer on how to use it for positive results.


A lot depends on the person on the "receiving" end and the person on the "giving" end sitting down and figuring out what embarasses the receiver while at the same time sexually exciting them.  For some folks, just hearing their partner talk dirty to them..."I want to put you on your knees because that makes your round ass just that much more enticing for fucking/spanking/biting/etc" or "God, I really want to fuck your hot cunt/cock"...is humiliating and yet affirmative of their sexual attractiveness to their partner.  Being called a "hot, horny fuckslut" works for some, being called "MY hot assfuck-craving cumslut" works for others but they work because it takes dark needs/desires/concerns and turns them into positive attributes.  Taking a submissive who is insecure about her weight and telling her "God...you are such a hot fuckwhore...for a fat girl" is not liable to make her feel good.  That is...in my opinion...degradation dressed up as "just doing humiliation".  No...degradation takes away from self-worth, humiliation...done right...adds to it.

Screw the Roses also has good examples of verbal humiliation.

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 1:40:57 PM   
JustDarkness


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Status: offline 		ofcourse..that is the reason
...right...

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 1:46:46 PM   
Gwynvyd


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Status: offline 		I do use a bit of positive humiliation on my girl.

She hates to be babied.. really really hates it. She is very very shy, and gets even more shy in sexual circumstances.

I love to hold her down and do things to her and tell her what a good girl she is, how proud I am that she is such a good slut puppy for me.. or my bitch in heat.

It is embarassing as hell for her, but a huge turn on.

I would never think of saying an unkind word to her. ( others can take their chances) But I find that this positive kind of humiliation... backing it up with praise, Is very condusive to where I want her to be.

Gwyn




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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 1:58:19 PM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		I can tell you for a fact I knew intellectually how the DIs would be before I got to boot camp. That's not to say I fully appreciated the impact of everything beforehand--I didn't and no one does--but everything the DIs did was something described prior to my signing my enlistment papers.

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 1:59:42 PM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		I like your distinction between "degradation" and "humiliation".

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 2:01:38 PM   
JustDarkness


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Status: offline 		OK..but their is a difference between strict, rough, harsh and humiliation.
Soldiers have to be shaped...but humiliated...don't know.
I just read that some drill sergeants where punished...so I guess..there is a limit.

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 2:10:01 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I just read that some drill sergeants where punished...so I guess..there is a limit.

There is. DI's can't hit recruits. Also can't thrash/drill them past the point of exhaustion, or give them tasks that put them in harm's way. And pretty much racial/ethnic slurs are out as well.

Yes, there are limits.

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 2:20:50 PM   
SailingBum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


quote:

ORIGINAL: SailingBum

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


Things said which are "humiliating" often are a pathway to self-esteem. Marine Corps Drill Instructors are masters of the art of "positive" humiliation.



Huh?  I was in the miltary.  I for one would like to know how calling someone a "dumb fucking maggot" or "lower than pond scum"  builds esteem?  The "general motive" in basic training is to beat you down into submission so you obey everyone lol.  Later on in the training is where the esteem building takes place confindence courses and the like.

BadOne

Key word is "pathway". If you listen to what Marine Corps Drill Instructors say, everything that is said is geared towards extracting the very last bit of effort out of the recruit. Getting maximum effort out of the recruit is what gets said recruit over Mount Motherfucker and similar obstacles--and yes, that is where the self-esteem begins to grow.

Self-esteem itself can only come from accomplishment. That is ever and always the order of things. Verbal humiliation that motivates the individual to accomplish will, over time, produce the accomplishments that will give rise to improved self-esteem.


Thank you for making my point.  Humilation has nothing to do with building self esteem.  Most ppl perform to the best of their abilities without name calling,  it happens all the time.

BadOne

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 3:50:42 PM   
Gwynvyd


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Status: offline 		I have never believed in breaking one down to build them up. All it does is breed conformity.. it is not stable.. and the human spirit eventualy will over come those types of bonds.

Gwyn



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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 4:38:03 PM   
Jeptha


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

A lot depends on the person on the "receiving" end and the person on the "giving" end sitting down and figuring out what embarasses the receiver while at the same time sexually exciting them. ...

I think so too.
Verbal humiliation isn't indiscriminate (at least not as I've experienced it, though ymmv, of course.)
Partly at play might be that it is my fantasy that I'm projecting onto my partner, striking little sparks where in some sense, somehow, somewhere, she shares that fantasy, or it at least resonates with her somehow. Or, if she doesn't share the specific fantasy exactly, it might be something about the tone of voice, or just being addressed in that way that she finds interesting, or maybe all three of those things to varying degrees.
But I think the thing that makes it not *really* painful is the fact that it is my fantasy; I'm the one spouting the words and coming up with the perverse ideas or associations. The content may be because I have some insight into her (and that would stem from conversations that we've already had about it), but the unstated but understood motive is that I'm getting off on it in some way as well.

< Message edited by Jeptha -- 11/4/2008 4:45:17 PM >

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 5:46:14 PM   
Barelily


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quote:

I think on some level that is how we use verbal humiliation.  It is the difference between being just A slut and being MY slut.  It is going to those dreaded places that perhaps before were truly negative or a place of rejection except at the far end of the tunnel is someone who loves you for going there for them.


/nod... well said. 

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 6:13:04 PM   
catize


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Status: offline 		I have come to the realization that my masochism includes the emotional aspect as well as the physical.  I get the same endorphin high as I do with an intense pain-play session. 
And, this
quote:

  except at the far end of the tunnel is someone who loves you for going there for them. 

is what makes all the difference!

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 8:11:10 PM   
celticlord2112


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Status: offline 		Your point was refuted, not made. 

People at various junctures need to be pulled, pushed, poked, and prodded in order to achieve maximum effort--it is the nature of the human animal. 

Whatever gets maximum effort from the individual is merely one step in the process. 

From maximum effort comes self-esteem.

That is the order of things.


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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 9:06:41 PM   
SailingBum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Your point was refuted, not made. 

People at various junctures need to be pulled, pushed, poked, and prodded in order to achieve maximum effort--it is the nature of the human animal. 

Whatever gets maximum effort from the individual is merely one step in the process. 

From maximum effort comes self-esteem.

That is the order of things.



We are going to have to agree to disagree.  If we use your example of ways to motivate ppl.  How come it is not being done in life???  FYI humilation mostly breeds contempt. 

Use the workplace as a example your boss tells you "you scum sucking maggot your not doing it right"  Uh that will not inspire most ppl to do the task better.

Just because you think it's so doesn't make it so.  I suggest you do some reading on Maslow's hierarchy of needs and others on how to get the most out of ppl.  My thesis was on this.  No where in any of my research did humilation come into play. 

BadOne

< Message edited by SailingBum -- 11/4/2008 9:07:16 PM >

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RE: Positive Verbal Humiliation? - 11/4/2008 10:16:26 PM   
Fizzgig168


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Status: offline 		My Dom made me tell him that I love myself once.  You wanna talk humiliation?  Shit.  Now, I know for most people that's just downright silly.  But I.. have some pretty serious self-worth issues.  And for me to be forced to say... and ye gods in front of another human being!... that I love myself was just... well, humiliating.  And difficult beyond belief because of course I couldn't just say the words.  I could just make the noises.  I had to mean it.  I had to go somewhere inside myself and find a way to mean it.  It's a rare example, to be sure.  But... yeah, I'd say he used humiliation to better me, to build me up and make me see myself in a more positive light.  I know I've never forgotten that.  And hard as it is sometimes I can always reach back to that place, to that memory, and know that once I told someone I love myself.  And if I can say it once, if I can make it true once... well.  The rest follows.

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