RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (Full Version)

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UncleNasty -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 8:06:02 AM)

"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep discussing what is for dinner. Liberty is a well armed sheep." Unknown.

"When they call the roll in the Senate the Senators do not whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.'" T. Roosevelt.

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter." Winstoon Churchill.

Uncle Nasty




Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 8:11:30 AM)

From the U.S. History Encyclopedia:

Democracy in America, by Alexis de Tocqueville. The most influential study of the United States ever written, Democracy in America owes its enduring significance to the complexity of Tocqueville's analysis. This child of aristocracy was "a liberal of a new kind" (Tocqueville to Eugène Stoffels, July 24, 1836, in The Tocqueville Reader, p. 153): despite his personal passion for freedom and individual distinction, he conceded that equality and democracy were God's ideals for the future. In the United States, which he visited in 1831–1832, Tocqueville saw how liberty could be channeled by widespread participation in public life to prevent a potentially volatile "tyranny of the majority" from spilling over into anarchy or despotism. In the widely read and highly praised first volume of Democracy in America (1835), Tocqueville showed how boisterous local associations and a decentralized political system moderated the fractiousness of democratic life. In the second volume (1840), which reflects his growing anxiety about a new industrial feudalism (from a trip to Great Britain) and a stagnant mass culture anesthetized by prosperity (from developments in his native France), Tocqueville ventured a more abstract and ambitious meditation on the consequences of equality for freedom.

Differences of tone and emphasis marked the two volumes of Democracy in America, and interpreters' differing analyses of Tocqueville have reflected their own passions and perspectives. His first American reviewers, post-Federalists and proto-Whigs who were also among his most important informants, praised him because he took American democracy seriously (unusual for a European visitor) and because he emphasized—as these Americans did—the importance of distinguishing between the corrosive egoism of individualists on the make and the democratic virtue of "self interest rightly understood." Only through experiences such as serving on juries or participating in voluntary associations, Tocqueville argued, did Americans learn to cooperate with eachother, to see things from other points of view, and to internalize the crucial ethic of "reciprocal obligation" (Democracy, p. 572).

From the Civil War through World War II, Democracy in America slipped into relative obscurity as conflict eclipsed cooperation as the most striking feature of American life. In the late 1930s, against the chiaroscuro of fascism and communism, American democracy again shimmered with promise; Tocqueville assumed the stature of sage that he has enjoyed ever since. If centralization and conformity bred totalitarianism, Tocqueville showed how America managed to avoid such perils. If Jefferson's Enlightenment rationalism and Marx's revolutionary positivism seemed too simple for a chastened age, Tocqueville provided—as did Max Weber—a more subtle, multi-dimensional alternative. If Dwight Eisenhower was the first President to quote Tocqueville, all of his successors have followed his lead because Democracy in America offered wisdom for everyone. Since the 1960s right and left alike have adopted Tocqueville as a sober prophet, who saw the hollowness of material prosperity either detached from tradition and authority (for conservatives) or detached from the promise of participatory democracy (for the communitarian left). But only readers alert to Tocqueville's delicate balancing of freedom and equality, of cultural stability and innovation, will avoid jamming him awkwardly into contemporary categories and see him, as he saw himself, perched between the old regime of privilege and the problematic future of egalitarian democracy.

and a tag from Wikipedia, also about Tocqueville:

American democracy was seen to have its potential downside: the despotism of public opinion, the tyranny of majority, the absence of intellectual freedom which he saw to degrade administration and bring statesmanship, learning, and literature to the level of the lowest. Democracy in America predicted the violence of party spirit and the judgment of the wise subordinated to the prejudices of the ignorant. It is arguable whether these predictions also came to fruition.




thetammyjo -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 9:19:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

I am disappointed for sure, but anger is meaningless without something for me to vent it at. And for me that means a living person or a kitten or something. If anything though I am more angry at the populace for this colossal clusterfuck of a country we live in. We can not agree on anything, we have zero sense of a common purpose. Personally I'd like a government that works alot quicker than what we have now. So call me a fascist. and how can we hold the government to high standards when the ones we have for our fellows have fallen so low.  But whatever, you have your opinion.



You now there are plenty of dictatorships and fascist governments out there. Why not move to one if you think they are a good idea?




nightphoenix -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 9:27:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

And certainly patriotic Americans, after duly electing the choice of the people, would follow their President, at least for his term, yes?

No.

Patriotism can take the form of supporting a good President or opposing a bad one.



This.  My conscience simply will not allow me to support the government that we just voted in.  I don't know how far I'll go yet...for starters I certainly know I won't give them a dime of income taxes, and there's a good likelihood I'll be leaving the country.




TheHeretic -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 9:43:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

there's a good likelihood I'll be leaving the country.


          Bon Voyage.  Don't come back.




nightphoenix -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 9:46:44 AM)

Oh, if the country survives the next four years, I'm sure I'd be back once the government is replaced. =)




TheHeretic -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 9:48:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

Oh, if the country survives the next four years, I'm sure I'd be back once the government is replaced. =)



           No.  If you decide you are only an American when you like the winner, then we don't need you, or want you.  Stay gone. 




nightphoenix -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 9:54:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

Oh, if the country survives the next four years, I'm sure I'd be back once the government is replaced. =)



         No.  If you decide you are only an American when you like the winner, then we don't need you, or want you.  Stay gone. 


It has nothing to do with "liking the winner".  I didn't like Bush either.  (Or Clinton).

It has to do with the fact that we just voted in a Socialist who's economic policies frankly scare the crap out of me.  It has to do with the fact that I really don't see much hope of the country surviving as the country I love once this government is finished with it.

The ironic part is Bush was voted in as a "conservative"...but proved to be one of the most economically liberal and socialist presidents we've EVER had.  Seriously, not a single problem came Bush's way that he didn't answer with "more" government, "more" spending.

So what does America replace him with?  An even MORE Socialist, liberal president.  That's just scary, ironic, and hilarious all at once.

So, my decision stands, and fortunately you have absolutely no say in wether the country "needs" or "wants" me so I can ignore the post outright, since you obviously didn't understand mine. =)




Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:03:23 AM)

Obviously your boast is ridiculous, but just for the hell of it---

Which paragon of an economically sound, non-Socialist country do you plan to call home during your expatriate years?




nightphoenix -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:07:52 AM)

If it's ridiculous, care to make a wager on it? ;)

I've already had one friend renounce his american citizenship  (He had to go to Argentina to do it because apparently you can't do it while still in the country).

I don't plan to call anywhere else "home" though.  It's very likely that early 2009 I can get a transfer to Canada through work, which would at least get me out of the country, and I'll figure it out from there.  (Due to a recent promotion and a company policy that states I have to be in a position for 6 months before a transfer, it looks like March is the earliest this can happen.)




philosophy -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:11:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

If it's ridiculous, care to make a wager on it? ;)

I've already had one friend renounce his american citizenship  (He had to go to Argentina to do it because apparently you can't do it while still in the country).

I don't plan to call anywhere else "home" though.  It's very likely that early 2009 I can get a transfer to Canada through work, which would at least get me out of the country, and I'll figure it out from there.  (Due to a recent promotion and a company policy that states I have to be in a position for 6 months before a transfer, it looks like March is the earliest this can happen.)



[:D]..ah, Canada, with its socialised health care and foreign policy commitment to human rights........sounds like you'll love it,.




nightphoenix -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:12:42 AM)

It's a stop-gap.  The point isn't about finding a new home, it's about my refusal to support this soon-to-be present government.




celticlord2112 -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:13:24 AM)

quote:

I've already had one friend renounce his american citizenship (He had to go to Argentina to do it because apparently you can't do it while still in the country).

Here's an idea:  Everyone who wants to leave because of how evil the government is should transfer their citizenship to some hard working immigrant who is grateful for the opportunity to stay; if the former citizens then want to come back, they can hope/pray/wait for someone to do likewise as they flee the oppression that is America.

To whom will you gift your citizenship, as you apparently have no use for it yourself?




Musicmystery -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:13:32 AM)

quote:

If it's ridiculous, care to make a wager on it?


Hell, I'll chip in the Heretic to send you with a one-way ticket.

Are you aware that Canada is far more socialist than the U.S.?

And you will still owe those income taxes, so getting back over the border will introduce you to federal authorities.

We're trying to have a discussion here. You're copping to childish fantasies.

So go. Figure it out there. Don't forget to stamp your feet and slam the door.




michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:14:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

And certainly patriotic Americans, after duly electing the choice of the people, would follow their President, at least for his term, yes?

No.

Patriotism can take the form of supporting a good President or opposing a bad one.



This.  My conscience simply will not allow me to support the government that we just voted in.  I don't know how far I'll go yet...for starters I certainly know I won't give them a dime of income taxes, and there's a good likelihood I'll be leaving the country.


not that i cared for any of the candidates or knew anything about them, what they "stand" for (since it's all lies just to get in), but i'm curious as to why you'd leave the country? (i have my own problems with this country, but that's another story). is it racial or some other reason?




michaelOfGeorgia -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:17:09 AM)

quote:

It has to do with the fact that we just voted in a Socialist who's economic policies frankly scare the crap out of me. It has to do with the fact that I really don't see much hope of the country surviving as the country I love once this government is finished with it.


this country has survived alot worse, and Socialism may very well be what this country needs (if he sticks to whatever he said). Capitalism hasn't worked.

(oh, and for the record..i consider to belong to any nation or hold any ties to any land (which is property), i am a sentient life form and don't hold any belief in propoganda terms such as patriotism)




philosophy -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:17:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

It's a stop-gap.  The point isn't about finding a new home, it's about my refusal to support this soon-to-be present government.


...so where will you go? What country in the world best reflects your view of how a government should work?




nightphoenix -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:19:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

If it's ridiculous, care to make a wager on it?


Hell, I'll chip in the Heretic to send you with a one-way ticket.

Are you aware that Canada is far more socialist than the U.S.?

And you will still owe those income taxes, so getting back over the border will introduce you to federal authorities.

We're trying to have a discussion here. You're copping to childish fantasies.

So go. Figure it out there. Don't forget to stamp your feet and slam the door.


Yes, I'm aware Canada is more socialist.  Are you aware I already said it's a stop-gap?

And yes, I will pay those income taxes - in 4 years to the new government (Though you exaggerate - I know people that haven't paid income taxes in 20 years now.)

And I certainly don't see anything "childish" or "fantastical" about my decision.  It's been one of the most serious, heavy, decisions I've made, with many weeks of preparation, debate, and lost hours of sleep over.  It's called having principles and standing by them, even when it means making one of the most drastic, hardest moves I've ever had to make.




philosophy -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:21:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

If it's ridiculous, care to make a wager on it?


Hell, I'll chip in the Heretic to send you with a one-way ticket.

Are you aware that Canada is far more socialist than the U.S.?

And you will still owe those income taxes, so getting back over the border will introduce you to federal authorities.

We're trying to have a discussion here. You're copping to childish fantasies.

So go. Figure it out there. Don't forget to stamp your feet and slam the door.


Yes, I'm aware Canada is more socialist.  Are you aware I already said it's a stop-gap?

And yes, I will pay those income taxes - in 4 years to the new government (Though you exaggerate - I know people that haven't paid income taxes in 20 years now.)

And I certainly don't see anything "childish" or "fantastical" about my decision.  It's been one of the most serious, heavy, decisions I've made, with many weeks of preparation, debate, and lost hours of sleep over.  It's called having principles and standing by them, even when it means making one of the most drastic, hardest moves I've ever had to make.


....and if you do move to Canada, will you pay whatever taxes you owe there to its 'socialist' government?




nightphoenix -> RE: Some of you really smart people please explain American democracy to me (11/8/2008 10:22:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: nightphoenix

It's a stop-gap.  The point isn't about finding a new home, it's about my refusal to support this soon-to-be present government.


...so where will you go? What country in the world best reflects your view of how a government should work?


If in 4 years the US really is as dead as I fear it may be, I might just follow my friend's footsteps (the professor I mentioned in another thread) and not call myself a citizen of anywhere...and will probably just spend the rest of my life doing humanitarian work in a 3rd world country somewhere until I die of tuburculosis or something. =)




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