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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 11:49:19 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		To the OP, Perhaps if you see punishment as discipline, instead of this is simply something you can't do to punish you, instead see it as he is disciplining you, you may find what it is you should be learning, which it doesn't seem you have from what i am reading in your posts - instead of deciding when you think it should end..

Maybe he was waiting for you to get to this point because from your words you are more concerned about the discipline it seems and waiting for it to be over and that you have been good A, B, C, days.  

Sure someone can go a couple days without saying I love you it may be uncomfortable or hurtful, but perhaps he was waiting to see what you would do when you got to the point you believe you should be able to say it.  Do you really understand the meaning of those words and that they should be together with actions?   Its easy to express love in words.  You say you've been an angel, is that because you are being  disciplined and are trying to be an angel so he lifts your "punishment"?  Sounds to me based on your "i've been an angel" idea, that you were being good so you could have your discipline lifted.  Were you being an angel when you spent days causing the problem initially and saying i love you? It seems he is trying to teach you actions speak louder than words, and your actions during that time were not clarifying that to him.  Based on your post here, i don't think you get that yet.  Are you saying i love you for yourself or for him?  If you are saying it for him, then he is trying to tell you it seems your actions mean more to him than your words.  Have you considered that hearing you say i love you wen your actions don't reflect same, could be hurting him?  You are still whining about the punishment and if you are -- then to me, you haven't learned much yet.  Again try seeing it as discipline instead of punishment. 

Punishment usually isn't something the punishee decides is enough, neither is discipline, its enough when its effective and teaches the lesson its meant to, and if you are allowing your inability to SAY i love ou to effect your relationship, then to me, you really do need to learn why one says those words and what they mean outside of the words and you haven't really learned anything from the discipline. nor are you clear yet as to the damage your behavior that caused the need for this may have caused that you don't want to see..... yet, i hope.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/8/2008 12:17:39 PM >

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 12:34:12 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

Of course, I'm the first to admit that I barely understand the useful purpose of "punishment" at all.

Depends on how one conceptualizes "punishment".

Punishment as revenge/retribution == very stupid idea that doesn't work.

Punishment as incentive for improved behavior == very good idea when it does work, very bad idea when it doesn't.

Most of all, any punishment (or corrective action, which some find a more palatable alternate phrasing) needs to be intermingled with more positive incentives.  It's never enough to say "No."  One must also say "Yes."


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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 1:48:51 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		The problem I see here is that this has been six weeks, she still doesn't understand why he's doing it or what purpose he hopes to achieve. Without him bothering to talk to her and explain it again, and keep discussing it until she does understand, it isn't going to work. It's a lot easier to punish than to teach, unfortunately teaching creates the changes that an inexplicable punishment doesn't.

So if he's waiting for her to come to him one day and say she had a eureka moment, what if she never does? What happens if it goes on for six months and she still doesn't get it? Think he will then bother to explain so she can understand? Think she won't feel angry and resentful and that those feelings won't impact the relationship? Think there will still be feelings of love after that long a period of resentment?

At what point should a dominant be smart enough to admit that what he's doing isn't working and he needs to do something else? To me, six weeks is way past that point.

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 2:17:53 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

It's a lot easier to punish than to teach, unfortunately teaching creates the changes that an inexplicable punishment doesn't.

How do you teach someone to value the feelings of others?


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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 2:27:16 PM   
MasterTslave


Posts: 200
Joined: 8/24/2005
Status: offline 		That would be a hard one!  I would say as some of the others have suggested, DO things to show him you LOVE him.  I am not sure I could go that long...I say it in my sleep to him

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 7:01:39 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelsub2LuvU

This has helpped so much. I have whinned and cried about the punishment but not really looked at what he was feeling when he made it. Yes, he loves me but I pushed the limits and crossed boundries. Insted of crying and whinning I need to look a lil deeper. Thank you very much.


Sounds like you have moved up a level and are learning. I to am just as likely to disallow a slave from uttering those words if she uses them at inappropriate times or friviously. because I am married slaves know they should not aspire to become my partner., but should know that they are loved by me. My reason for objecting tol the inapropriate or frivilious use of such endearments is that it is necessary to avoid things which car erode the feeling of being a slave and may encourage the feeling of being sa girlfriend or mistress (as in vanilla intimate terms and not BDSM). I like to reinforce the knowledge in a girl that she is a slave and she is my slave, owned by me and nothing more.


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http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 7:53:42 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

How do you teach someone to value the feelings of others?



I don't know how he should teach her. What's important here is that he doesn't know how. Because if he did, he would have by now.

As far as IB, if this was just to show her she isn't loved or wanted for anything but just a slave, and that there was no vanilla relationship, then it would have been in place from the beginning. But a great many of us have relationships where the vanilla aspects are just as important as the D/s ones.

So why destroy the vanilla relationship? Why not just as equally choose to not allow her to submit, to call him Sir, why not remove her collar? Wouldn't that be equal punishment and equally as destructive to the relationship?

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 8:14:01 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Y'see, most honoured Consigliere (subby mafia), this is why I near;ly always gikve my personal views ans being my views. I can speak for few people in many matters. Whilst I have had many vanilla relationships (shallow sex driven) and thrrr Vanilla marriages, a combination of my family training, expectations and values,  years of marticl arts training and discliplines and a life in both the military and para-military suvbstuted for lifestyles in which BDSM is a part as is sub/slaves. Thus I have never had a relationship of what you and others may refer to as vanilla. I have no understanding of it and tend to avoid it where possible. At a normal function such as a family gathering of Neet's mob, I am truly like a fish out of water. I refered to the OP's previous post when I coingratulated her in a better understanding of what transpired and why. Like I usually do I simply added how I deal with a similar situatipon and why. Every slave I collar as either personals or to the home know where they stand befpore a collar is talked about and is firmly listed in my profile as is the warning that anyone trying to generate a rift between Neets and I will be shown the door pronto. I hope that clarifies things. 

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 8:17:09 PM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline
quote:

I don't know how he should teach her. What's important here is that he doesn't know how. Because if he did, he would have by now.

You contradict yourself.   Who can say how long a lesson takes?  Some lessons take a lifetime.  Some lessons take several lifetimes.


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RE: punishment--??? - 11/8/2008 11:16:07 PM   
angelsub2LuvU


Posts: 23
Joined: 2/8/2006
Status: offline
Just want everyone to know I am reading the post and taking it all in. When I first posted--in the back of my mind I was thinking everyone would say right away how he was not reasonable and I needed to let him know this. Yes, I was a spoiled brat as I questioned. I, of course have not magically grown into this enlightened person that fully realizes her mistakes. Let's just say my eyes have been opened. I am still thinking hard as to my role in this and how my actions have caused the wedge between us as it was put. I was totally blaming him for it without taking any responsibility.

I have realized much more and am still thinking about it, but with different eyes now. Looking in a different direction you could say. I do know we need to have better communication.  for one........  please keep posting.  I thank you very much.

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/9/2008 12:12:43 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		As a point of view entirely unrelated to the punishment aspect, I think everyone in a serious relationship should have a period to time where they are not allowed to use those words.

It might just force many to actually communicatively verbalize their feelings, what their significant other means to them and what part they think their SO plays in their life.


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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: punishment--??? - 11/9/2008 12:21:18 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelsub2LuvU

 It's getting to the point that when it's allright to say it again--I might not want to.


I don't know if I'm reading you correctly, but this sounds awfully spiteful.  That's not a judgment, but isn't this the very attitude that he's trying to correct?   If this is the mindset that you're taking on, then you are just doing more of the same in response to his efforts to correct you.

Maybe someone already mentioned this?  I haven't read the whole thread.

Why not just tell him very nicely that it's really hit you hard to not be able to say this and that you're going to make an effort to not act spoiled again in the future.  Maybe he'll lift the ban then.  If you give him more attitude, well...then what?

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/9/2008 12:47:53 AM   
marie2


Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

As a point of view entirely unrelated to the punishment aspect, I think everyone in a serious relationship should have a period to time where they are not allowed to use those words.

It might just force many to actually communicatively verbalize their feelings, what their significant other means to them and what part they think their SO plays in their life.



Total squick factor.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: punishment--??? - 11/9/2008 12:56:57 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelsub2LuvU

My Dom of 5 years recently gave me a punishment and it has been in affect for a month and a half. I am not allowed to say "I love you"  Yes, I  disobeyed and acted almost un-forgiving--- but this really hurts. We have a very deep relationship and it seems to me like this is a bit harsh. For it to go on so long too. Am I juat being a spoiled brat? It's getting to the point that when it's allright to say it again--I might not want to.



quote:

ORIGINAL: angelsub2LuvU

What was the offence?? well, I invaded his privacy acted like I was not his sub at all and worried him badly. My words, actions and the way I was talking to him was disrespectful. This went on for days.

He has not said how the punishment is to correct the offence. I think that if I was not acting like I love him then I do not deserve to be able to say it.  I feel it has gone on too long though. He has permitted me to say it a couple of times when we were together and he has said it back, but ---I don't know. I have been pretty much an angel( for me--as much as I ever can be) since he impossed this.
I've expressed how it is hurting me and now doing more harm than good.
I still want to shout it from the roof top as mc12234 put it but the fact he has not wanted to hear it for so long and know's Im hurting over it and hasn't responded is making me-- I don't knwo the word--bitter?


an invasion of a man's privacy says, typically, one thing... i dont trust you.  why not after 5 years?  and he has allowed you to say "i love you".. when he is ready to hear it.  by going on and on about how you feel its been too long, the punishment is too harsh, ect, you are saying once again... i dont trust you.  and if you dont trust a man, how can you possibly love him?  as far as how the punishment is to correct the offence..... i think you need to search deeper inside for that answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: angelsub2LuvU

This has helpped so much. I have whinned and cried about the punishment but not really looked at what he was feeling when he made it. Yes, he loves me but I pushed the limits and crossed boundries. Insted of crying and whinning I need to look a lil deeper. Thank you very much.


quote:

ORIGINAL: angelsub2LuvU


Just want everyone to know I am reading the post and taking it all in. When I first posted--in the back of my mind I was thinking everyone would say right away how he was not reasonable and I needed to let him know this. Yes, I was a spoiled brat as I questioned. I, of course have not magically grown into this enlightened person that fully realizes her mistakes. Let's just say my eyes have been opened. I am still thinking hard as to my role in this and how my actions have caused the wedge between us as it was put. I was totally blaming him for it without taking any responsibility.

I have realized much more and am still thinking about it, but with different eyes now. Looking in a different direction you could say. I do know we need to have better communication.  for one........  please keep posting.  I thank you very much.


a man can only "master" you if you trust them.  and yes, actions speak louder than words.  i dont see this punishment as harsh at all.  6 weeks, compared to 5 years, is just a flash in the pan.  maybe acting like a brat after all that time is making him reconsider a few things as well.  i would definitely say this is a wake up call for you, honey.  men will take only so much before they say "enough".

tazzy

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/9/2008 1:47:43 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: marie2

Total squick factor.

If you prefer fanciful, prettied, malleable terms used in lieu of thorough, honest emotional expressiveness.


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I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
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RE: punishment--??? - 11/9/2008 8:07:47 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

As a point of view entirely unrelated to the punishment aspect, I think everyone in a serious relationship should have a period to time where they are not allowed to use those words.

When I love, I love deeply and fully, and not allowing me to express that would be a form of stifling me. My former master felt that stifling my expressions of love would push me into my "distant" and self protection mode. He wished to draw me closer, so it was his practice to remove the phrase from me. Then again, if he thought I was throwing it around loosely, he may have had something different to say about it.

quote:



It might just force many to actually communicatively verbalize their feelings, what their significant other means to them and what part they think their SO plays in their life.


Or, the person can learn to do both. I was periodically required to answer questions just like these for him, in detail. Why did I love him? Why did I love belonging to him? What did his mastery over me mean to me? What did it mean to me, to be his slave? And so on.

I didn't need to stifle saying "I love you" to learn the answer to the other questions.

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/9/2008 9:20:49 AM   
NihilusZero


Posts: 4036
Joined: 9/10/2008
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

When I love, I love deeply and fully, and not allowing me to express that would be a form of stifling me.

Like being unable to touch the person you feel that way about because they are on a trip is "stifling". Handfuls of circumstances can be "stifling", and that's not even getting into a punishment dynamic where there are numerous ways in the means by which the s-type can express it are curbed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Or, the person can learn to do both. I was periodically required to answer questions just like these for him, in detail. Why did I love him? Why did I love belonging to him? What did his mastery over me mean to me? What did it mean to me, to be his slave? And so on.

Doing "both" only makes sense once the use of the phrase is preceded by an explanation of feelings without it.

"Love" is an empty word. When spoken (to aply an analogy leadership527 has used on other topics before) each person fills the word with money in their own currency. The hope, of course, is that the person receiving it pay for their own thoughts and emotions in the same currency. Essentially, it is a word that means nothing until the person saying it explains what it does mean.

And if we have not yet explained to our partner what the use of the phrase means to us when we use it, then what exactly are we telling them?

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I didn't need to stifle saying "I love you" to learn the answer to the other questions.

Nor do you desperately need to be able to speak it for it to be true (and, in your example, you didn't have to because your former Master actually took the time to force you into introspection about it). Mute folks, I'm sure, have certainly had no greater problems loving than the rest of the human populace.


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"I know it's all a game
I know they're all insane
I know it's all in vain
I know that I'm to blame."
~Siouxsie & the Banshees

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: punishment--??? - 11/9/2008 9:36:34 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

When I love, I love deeply and fully, and not allowing me to express that would be a form of stifling me.

Like being unable to touch the person you feel that way about because they are on a trip is "stifling". Handfuls of circumstances can be "stifling", and that's not even getting into a punishment dynamic where there are numerous ways in the means by which the s-type can express it are curbed.


I can't tell if you're agreeing, disagreeing, or simply adding further thoughts.

I do believe, however, when you remove one's primary source of communication from someone (in my case, words), said person is forced to find other means with which to communicate. It is an interesting practice, no doubt. When doing so without explanation, it adds confusion to the lesson, and complicates it. Rather than focusing on other ways to communicate, one is also burdened with wondering why this is happening and if there is an end in sight. I don't believe the practice of confusing such lessons is as efficient and effective as they otherwise could be.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Or, the person can learn to do both. I was periodically required to answer questions just like these for him, in detail. Why did I love him? Why did I love belonging to him? What did his mastery over me mean to me? What did it mean to me, to be his slave? And so on.

Doing "both" only makes sense once the use of the phrase is preceded by an explanation of feelings without it.

"Love" is an empty word. When spoken (to aply an analogy leadership527 has used on other topics before) each person fills the word with money in their own currency. The hope, of course, is that the person receiving it pay for their own thoughts and emotions in the same currency. Essentially, it is a word that means nothing until the person saying it explains what it does mean.

And if we have not yet explained to our partner what the use of the phrase means to us when we use it, then what exactly are we telling them?


This is where people can get tripped up. This is why books such as "The Five Love Languages" (Gary Chapman) were written. Because people don't effectively communicate what they mean. I agree with you, that people are better for understanding what their partners mean when communicating. Perhaps in the case of the OP, if she was told why she was stifled from expressing her love verbally, even if just to say "I am removing these words so you can think on their meaning and on how your other behaviors communicate what you might feel", she would not be so bogged down with confusion, resentment, and angst. A directionless punishment/lesson can be about as effective as an empty "I love you."

quote:



quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

I didn't need to stifle saying "I love you" to learn the answer to the other questions.

Nor do you desperately need to be able to speak it for it to be true (and, in your example, you didn't have to because your former Master actually took the time to force you into introspection about it). Mute folks, I'm sure, have certainly had no greater problems loving than the rest of the human populace.



Mute folks are not intentionally suddenly gagged without explanation. I agree there are a multitude of ways to communicate, and if one is unable to in one form, then they are pushed to seek other forms. But an intentional, unexplained stifling is different than a physical inability which one has lived with over time.

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RE: punishment--??? - 11/10/2008 7:49:59 PM   
angelsub2LuvU


Posts: 23
Joined: 2/8/2006
Status: offline 		Have learned a lot and have done a lot of soul searching in the past few days. I thank everyone for thier comments and advice.  I have one more question now, please. I keep nothing from him. I told him in a few days I wanted to sit down and talk about my punishment and more so, what the offence was. How much fear should I have in telling him I have posted on this board about it?   :-(

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: punishment--??? - 11/10/2008 7:53:00 PM   
mc1234


Posts: 683
Joined: 10/4/2008
Status: offline 		Probably a bit of fear ... I know I would in your shoes.  The positive thing, however, is that it's helped you view the situation in a different light - sometimes we need outside influences to shift our way of thinking.  I wish you luck in communicating that to him.

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