RE: Subs who offer up their own rules

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LadyHibiscus -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/9/2008 6:57:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GoddessDustyGold ~FR~ I completely understand where Aakasha is coming from on this. For Me it is really less about what the boy is doing and more about the fact that the boy is instituting the little thrills that make him feel submissive. Here is the rub: They often get petulant if I am not thrilled that they are wearing those panties (or crawling into the room or having to ask permission to use the toilet, yada, yada, yada) "for Me". It's not for Me! It's for them. And if they need to wear those panties in order to feel submissive, whether to Me or anybody, it is for them. It also does not make My heart soar to know that they will not feel submissive unless these little protocols are in effect. I want a boy to be submissive to Me because it is Me. Not because I am making him wear panties under his suit or jeans. I have no problem with things a boys wants and enjoys. I have a problem with the attempt to force Me to participate in something I really don't care about one way or the other. I have My rules. Follow them and we will get along fine. If you need more, do it for yourself, with My approval, of course, but don't get upset if I am not checking to make sure you have those panties on. Just one Domina's take on this very common conundrum. Exactly! It's even worse when I make it very clear from the outset that I do NOT want that little thing that thrills him so much, and if he wants to do it, please keep it to himself...

ShaktiSama -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/9/2008 7:55:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha The post wasn't about the discussion of desires and fantasies, which I am all in favor of. It's about a submissive specifically asking if a rule should be in place, rather than waiting for the femdom to make the rules. I understand what you're saying. On the other hand, drawing the line between desire to communicate, desire to please and trying to top from the bottom can sometimes be difficult. In cases where it is, the only yardstick you can possibly apply is "Does this make me happy or turn me on?" If the answer is no, two words should suffice: "Stop that." If the man you're dealing with has no real life experience--and from what you've said in other posts, you are often dealing with men who have never even bottomed before, much less been submissive in a relationship--you're obviously going to be burdened with the chore of bringing them up to speed. Most men with any BDSM relationship experience at all have learned that every femme domme is different; there is no set of rules that applies to them all, especially where specific kinks or protocol is concerned.

thetammyjo -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 6:22:34 AM)
From my earlier days I developed this rule: If I can't easily and simply enforce the rules, they are not going to be the rules. I think the nature of Ds is that subs need to learn the rules and follow them, doms need to know the rules and enforce them. If you as the dom have to learn the rules, you have already weakened your authority and if you fail to enforce you can kiss that authority good bye. How do you know rules before you get into a Ds relationship? Get a lot of experience but don't call it or think of it as your Ds relationship; think of it as scening or training. This can be the period where you figure out what works for you and what works for the potential partner. Later as you get more experience (several years) the rules you need will become just part of you and you'll know them and enforce them easily regardless of who you are wit. These doesn't mean every potential sub is going to fit well with you but then the rules become one way you can judge whether or not you are a good match.

cloudboy -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 9:27:38 AM)
quote: I favor this approach. The response is not based on where the idea came from, but instead on whether an idea is a good one that contributes to the D/s dynamic. As for how appropriate or not it is for a sub to make such suggestions, I recognize that there is a grey area and there can be scenarios that could be inappropriate or annoying. Assuming genuine intentions, such behavior could be indicative of need for more communication about relationship expectations and intensity, and D/s rituals to sustain the feeling of the roles. Cheers, Sea The idea that the D/S dynamic flows only from the Domme is a false one. Helpful directions and ideas for the relationship come from each party. And, as with anything, it depends on the people involved.

AAkasha -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 9:35:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha The post wasn't about the discussion of desires and fantasies, which I am all in favor of. It's about a submissive specifically asking if a rule should be in place, rather than waiting for the femdom to make the rules. I understand what you're saying. On the other hand, drawing the line between desire to communicate, desire to please and trying to top from the bottom can sometimes be difficult. In cases where it is, the only yardstick you can possibly apply is "Does this make me happy or turn me on?" If the answer is no, two words should suffice: "Stop that." If the man you're dealing with has no real life experience--and from what you've said in other posts, you are often dealing with men who have never even bottomed before, much less been submissive in a relationship--you're obviously going to be burdened with the chore of bringing them up to speed. Most men with any BDSM relationship experience at all have learned that every femme domme is different; there is no set of rules that applies to them all, especially where specific kinks or protocol is concerned. This has happened with men who have varying levels of experience. I've been experimenting with casting a larger net - or, accepting contact from a larger group of men, and trying to loosen my criteria rather than eliminate so many nearly right out of the gate for missteps or being unrealistic. That's why in this case, I'm wondering how many submissives are just making honest mistakes and think they are being helpful, vs. obviously living in a fantasy world or trying to push their own agenda. If I used all my criteria out of the gate, no sub would make it past initial conversations. How many are worth trying to educate? Akasha

LadyHibiscus -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 9:45:08 AM)
I think that it's pretty clear which ones are worthwhile and which ones are just out for entertainment---they give themselves away fairly easily! I have given up training the new for now, but I know that I would cut the sincere ones a lot of slack. I am not sure why so many men who have managed to get through college, get jobs, and often marriages, lack the ability to communicate what they need and want, but that's how it is. The same bullshit detector works on kinky men as well as vanilla ones. It's up to you how much effort you want to put into it. Since you are not getting any kind of full time benefit from these men, are you really that interested in winnowing the wheat from the chaff? Seems like a lot of effort for not a great payout.

ElanSubdued -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 11:03:55 AM)
GoddessDustyGold, quote: I completely understand where Aakasha is coming from on this. For Me it is really less about what the boy is doing and more about the fact that the boy is instituting the little thrills that make him feel submissive. Here is the rub: They often get petulant if I am not thrilled that they are wearing those panties (or crawling into the room or having to ask permission to use the toilet, yada, yada, yada) "for Me". It's not for Me! It's for them. And if they need to wear those panties in order to feel submissive, whether to Me or anybody, it is for them. It also does not make My heart soar to know that they will not feel submissive unless these little protocols are in effect. I want a boy to be submissive to Me because it is Me. Not because I am making him wear panties under his suit or jeans. I have no problem with things a boys wants and enjoys. I have a problem with the attempt to force Me to participate in something I really don't care about one way or the other. I have My rules. Follow them and we will get along fine. If you need more, do it for yourself, with My approval, of course, but don't get upset if I am not checking to make sure you have those panties on. Just one Domina's take on this very common conundrum. I see what you mean and I agree wholeheartedly. Were I a dominant, I'd not be too happy with a submissive who is only loyal / pliant / devoted / reliable / willing / capable / loving / responsive / attentive (add and delete adjectives as necessary) when their own fetishes are being satisfied. Likewise, I'd be equally nonplussed by a pet who continuously pushed their fetishes in my face, particularly when done on their own schedule of desire and not my own. This said, I'll add two thoughts. First, just as there are dominant buttons (things that seduce and trigger one's dominance), there are also submissive buttons. Myself, there are many things that bring out my desire to submit and/or that touch that submissive place inside me that is at the depth of my core. I enjoy sharing these "buttons" with my partner and indeed, pushing one or more of these can have a big impact on my headspace. A domme who knows these buttons and who uses them effectively will likely get better service from me. This isn't to say a domme must continually work to get my service, loyalty, and affection. I give of my own accord and desire, and because I wish to lavish affection upon my partner. It's always my intent to serve as well as I can, with honesty and compassion, and with love. Indeed though, a little motivation coming from my partner is sometimes nice (and this includes things like words or appreciation, flirting, sharing fetishes, etc.). Second, when I look back at Akasha's OP, the question that jumps out is "does Akasha have trust in the quality of this person"? Let me put that in a more general way. If you don't have trust in the honesty, integrity, and quality of your partner, everything else is rendered somewhat moot. When a submissive you trust and have affection for volunteers fetishes at an inappropriate moment, you correct the sub and move on. However, if that basic level of trust isn't established, the kinds of issues in the OP start coming up. For me, I prefer to sidestep this problem by deferring BDSM interplay until there is an appropriate level of mutual trust. This often isn't an easy thing to do because flirting and dating (at least for kinky folk) often includes aspects of BDSM interplay. Thus, to a degree, I see the conundrum. Ultimately though, I think there's a huge chasm of difference between a submissive who is so intoxicated with their own fetishes that they can't determine appropriate courtesies and boundaries, and a cherished pet who misjudges and shares / engages in fantasies inappropriately. The prior, I believe, is the subject of the OP and honestly I don't see much difference between this and the random, wanker emails that we all receive. Email is indirect and somewhat impersonal, whereas actually meeting someone is much more up close and personal. Still, my resolve for wankers is pretty much the same: discard and move on. If something about inappropriate behavior particularly touches me, I may attempt to clarify the person's feelings. However, if the wanking behavior continues, this leeway dries up quickly. Despite the frustrations we all experience while searching for kinky partners, I believe there are many, wonderful kinky people in the world. Thus, I suggest kinksters maximize time spent on those of interest and minimize time spent filtering through chaff. It is especially frustrating when there is initial chemistry, but then a few, potential red flags start cropping up. I think this is the case with Akasha's man. Only Akasha knows her affection for and feelings about the quality of this man. If there is a misunderstanding, some communication is probably in order. The man may not know how he is making Akasha feel. It would be a shame to throw out a compatible, quality submissive over a misunderstanding. Ah, but if the guy is just a wanker... well, you know my drill on that one. I see this as an issue of trust, desire, and communication. When these are in place, a few bumps in the road are easy to navigate. When these are missing, bumps become very bumpy and problematic indeed. This entire thread seems odd to me - the premise being that many submissives are wankers, objectify their dominants, etc. I don't buy this. Wankers are wankers and they come in all shapes, sizes, roles, and genders. It's not often I meet sincere, kinky folk who fit into the categories that are the subtext of this thread. True enough, human relationships are what they are and they don't always go smoothly. It hasn't been my experience (though) that a large majority of submissives set out to objectify and use their dominants, at least not any moreso than folks in other BDSM demographics. Seemingly, the distinction missing is between those with serious relationship intent and the wankers we all encounter on the Internet (and sometimes at real-life events too). On BDSM sites like Collar Me, the noise quotient is very high so it's easy to become disenchanted, but I think we all owe it to ourselves not to let this taint and deter us from meeting those of quality and sincerity. I'll carefully avoid the issue that wankers are sincere too... sincere about wanking and finding any placeholder to fulfill their kinks. It behooves me to ponder the success metrics. Does "hey, wanna' put me in diapers and trample my worthless dick" (and its ilk) ever really work as a pickup line? The mysteries of the universe... ever bountiful and unending. :-) Elan.

ElanSubdued -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 11:33:17 AM)
Shakti, quote: On the other hand, drawing the line between desire to communicate, desire to please and trying to top from the bottom can sometimes be difficult. In cases where it is, the only yardstick you can possibly apply is "Does this make me happy or turn me on?" If the answer is no, two words should suffice: "Stop that." "Stop that", on its own, might be a tad abrupt and it's also not likely to address the root of the issue. Still, I think I understand where you're coming from. Essentially, as a dominant, you're saying communicate, listen, and resolve the issue. Yes/no? quote: If the man you're dealing with has no real life experience -- and from what you've said in other posts, you are often dealing with men who have never even bottomed before, much less been submissive in a relationship -- you're obviously going to be burdened with the chore of bringing them up to speed. Most men with any BDSM relationship experience at all have learned that every femme domme is different; there is no set of rules that applies to them all, especially where specific kinks or protocol is concerned. You always speak with a voice of reason, balance, and compassion. In other words, ya make the feminist / domme camp look damn good. gives Shakti another Good Domme-keeping seal of approval Elan.

ElanSubdued -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 12:17:10 PM)
Akasha, quote: This has happened with men who have varying levels of experience. I've been experimenting with casting a larger net - or, accepting contact from a larger group of men, and trying to loosen my criteria rather than eliminate so many nearly right out of the gate for missteps or being unrealistic. That's why in this case, I'm wondering how many submissives are just making honest mistakes and think they are being helpful, vs. obviously living in a fantasy world or trying to push their own agenda. If I used all my criteria out of the gate, no sub would make it past initial conversations. How many are worth trying to educate? I think that making oneself more approachable (i.e. loosening your criteria / casting a larger net) is an excellent idea. You'll meet more people and gain broader life experiences this way. Of course, along with the good may also come a few frustrations. I think this is a case of weighing good against bad and determining where you find enough benefit such that the frustrations are minor in comparison. As to subs that make suggestions, some are probably just making honest mistakes whereas others have their own, fantasy agenda. How many men are worth educating? Gee that's a tough question. I'd think men who interest you and who seem truly interested in you as a person... these men are probably worth spending your time on. Then again, some people look for quick rewards and quick exits so it's difficult to say. It all depends on what you want to get out of a given relationship. Similar to your full-on, submissive filtering criteria, if I used all my hard-armored, domme filtering criteria, few would make it past an initial conversation. Therefore, as it seems you are, I try to take a more open, inviting approach and adjust organically as I get to know someone. In the end, if my gut feel for someone tells me they've simply made an honest mistake, I tend to be very compassionate and forgiving, especially if the person makes amends and demonstrates that I'm a priority in their life. However, if someone repeatedly, after lot's of communication, continues to trigger red flags, I'll pull the plug. This isn't always an easy decision to make, but I think it's incumbent on each and every kinkster to use reasonable judgment and to be responsible for their own well being. Elan.

ProlificNeeds -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 12:25:45 PM)
For my thinking the rub is in whether they ask what you want, or try to suggest what you want. "How would you like me to greet you when you arrive?" To me seems perfectly acceptable. "May I greet you by kissing your boots when you have entered the home?" Suggesting that HE wants or needs this ritual, and being honest, asking permission. "Wouldn't you like me to ... <insert his personal fantasy>." This however shows that he is not focusing on what YOU want, and is also not being honest about what HE wants. He's trying to assume or guess, when he should just ask openly. I think perhaps it is not the fact a sub requests things, it is when they try to phrase things in insidious manner, (presenting their desire as something YOU want) that problems arise. I get the same feeling when a Dominant tries to tell me what I want... and I flatly tell them, "No Sir I hate that sh!t but I will still gladly do it if it will make you happy."

ShaktiSama -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 12:38:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha How many are worth trying to educate? Whew. That's a question for the ages. And it does make me reflect on how many emails and contacts I have ignored and continue to ignore, how many men have never made it past a few messages exchanged, or have crapped out after one or two IM chats over the years. The issues of control and respect have been the problem many times. I suspect that some submissive males have a serious problem overcoming the social brainwashing that tries to force them to be dominant. Some of them can't seem to stop trying to control the interaction and the relationship, even when they've stated the desire to be controlled or submit to a woman's will. They fall into the standard western male pattern instead, where it is the man's job to push to have his own needs met and make sex happen on his own terms, regardless of what the woman may want. Kinda sad.

dreamerdreaming -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 12:50:19 PM)
Thank you MsBriarRose, I loved your post! I see you've been on CM quite a while. Welcome to the boards! I look forward to hearing more from you. I love hearing my boy's dreams, but a lot of them are impractical. I can only put into effect those things that are sustainable over time. We're 24/7. The rules he lives by have to enrich our lives, not get in the way. Even with my own dreams, a lot of them are farfetched and may not fit into our real lives. I'm a very busy person so I try to keep it simple.

GoddessDustyGold -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 2:23:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds For my thinking the rub is in whether they ask what you want, or try to suggest what you want. "How would you like me to greet you when you arrive?" To me seems perfectly acceptable. "May I greet you by kissing your boots when you have entered the home?" Suggesting that HE wants or needs this ritual, and being honest, asking permission. "Wouldn't you like me to ... <insert his personal fantasy>." This however shows that he is not focusing on what YOU want, and is also not being honest about what HE wants. He's trying to assume or guess, when he should just ask openly. I think perhaps it is not the fact a sub requests things, it is when they try to phrase things in insidious manner, *(presenting their desire as something YOU want)* that problems arise. I get the same feeling when a Dominant tries to tell me what I want... and I flatly tell them, "No Sir I hate that sh!t but I will still gladly do it if it will make you happy." Yes...this is what I am getting at. Presenting it as something I want, they assume I want because that is their fantasy of how a D/s or M/s relationship will work, and/or if I don't want it I am actually not a real Dominant. For example, I should be happy and excited to force them to do housework in the nude. Now if this is their thing, more power to 'em I say! But to become petulant because I am not making this a "rule upfront, or I am not reacting they way the wanted Me to when they suggested that they are "willing" to this for Me...well, I hope ya get My drift here. As I said, I really don't have a problem with what boys may need, but if it is something that holds no interest for Me then I don't care to be forced to participate. And remember that we are talking here more about ruiles and protocols and less about actual fantasies that oculd be used in the occasional scene for mutual pleasure. I have to say that I guess I consider the boys who need to dictate how I will dominate them to be wankers. I find nothing wrong with the honest wanker. I only have a problem when they insist that they truly adore Me and if only I would <insert the first of his top ten protocols here> it would all be so perfect! To Elan: I agee with you that it is easier to work things in that are nice for both partners as a relationship develops and trust abounds. As I said, I don't mind. By then I would hope a boy knows Me well enough to be aware that I don't care if he wants to wear those panties, but I do care if he tries to force Me to check that he is wearing them or is disappointed when I don't.

mummyman321 -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 2:32:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha For example, he asks, "Do you want me to call you Mistress now?" or "Does this mean I can no longer orgasm without your permission, ma'am" (hopeful tone), or "Do I need to refer to my privates as your property now?" or "Shouldn't I be kneeling when I talk to you?" -- etc, you know what I mean. AAkasha, On your first quote I think the sub has a very valid question. I have know many Domme's who do not like to be called Mistress. Some like to be call Lady, some Maam, some by other terms. Communication is the key, so if the sub/slave is not sure of something then he must ask to find out. On the other examples given it is hard to tell because we (us reading this) have no idea what rules you discussed with your sub to start with. Certainly there are some men who try to top from the bottom either intensionally or unintensionally. On the other side of things for the sub who is not topping from the bottom this is no "absolute" protocol on how to respond to a Domme/Mistress. And not everyone is the same. BDSM relationship is really not all that different from a Vanilla relationship. It takes communication between the 2 people for the relationship to grow. From what you write it sounds like to have a standard to you expect the sub/slave to adhere to. But it is not clear if the sub/slave knows what those standards are. And if you are just entering into that relationship with the sub/slave I would even argue that there is no way from him to know what those standards are yet. It takes time and communication to learn each others wants, needs, desires, and expectations. Just my perspective from the outside looking in :)

MsDonnaMia -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 2:59:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha When you are in the early stages of flirtation or moving from vanilla to kink with a man, if he "helpfully" offers up rules in the form of innocent protocol questions, do you indulge him in those rules because you can tell he wants or needs those rules for his own satisfaction and nurturing, or do you dismiss any offers for protocol if they were merely 'helpful suggestions' or 'innocent clarification'? I despise those "helpful suggestions" framed in a hopeful tone. I pounce on that and put an end to it immediately. there is nothing more annoying than a "submissive" man attempting to turn me into a one-dimensional masturbatory cardboard cut-out. i let him know there are other ways of discussing likes and dislikes and methods of training, but they'll always come at my time and bidding, not his...not even as a "reward"

MmeGigs -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 4:05:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha In the past, I would get fairly impatient, and just state that I'd be clear about any rules, and let him know. That's pretty much the way I deal with such things, usually (but not always) without the impatience. I know me, and if the rules aren't something I care about I'm not going to be at all consistent about enforcing them. That just leads to frustration for everyone. I don't mind the helpful hints, but there's a line somewhere between that and writing a script for me to follow - an "I know it when I see it" kind of thing. For example, if hubby were to tell me that he wanted to give me a foot massage every night before we go to bed, I'd definitely be all for that. If he told me he wanted to do this, and that I should punish him if he forgets or doesn't do it properly and suggests forms of punishment for me to employ with an escalation schedule for repeated poor performance... What started out as a nice thing he wants to do has turned into a nightly chore for me. I can't just enjoy the footrub, I have to make it exciting for him. [8\|] I get a little weirded out when fellows I haven't even met start asking me what the rules will be or worse, offering suggestions. I don't even know if I want to go out with him, why on earth would I be thinking about what I'd do to him if he cums without permission??

RumpusParable -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 4:59:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AAkasha If it's presumptuously given or too scripted feeling or too much to remember or some other thing that puts me off, then I don't like it and ultimately don't bother. Other times, when it's helpful to me in knowing their mind and ways to use them, suggested with a feel that they know I'll make the decisions, is something I'm personally interested in or is otherwise enjoyable to me... I enjoy it. Context is everything for me on this. I like input and ideas and info on a sub/bottom's triggers and manner of functioning, depending. My domestic has given a lot of these comments and suggestions, and really most of the time it's made me laugh inside -he's often said or suggested something I'd been thinking a moment or visit before. Another sub/play-partner I spend time with has offered up some good info to help me get a feel of where he's coming from and it's helping me take steps in learning him.

slavekal -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 5:37:20 PM)
I try to avoid doing stuff like that. But on the other hand, there are some Mistresses who take little or no initiative. They almost make a guy want to top from the bottom because they are behaving like a buddy more than a Mistress.

PeonForHer -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 5:44:58 PM)
Have you met a lot of UK dommes, SK? As I've said elsewhere: I've come to think that the subtext of dommes who do that is "you tell me your fantasies first, thereby making yourself vulnerable first." Oh god, what a headache . . . .

Madame4a -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 7:16:43 PM)
I don't care for it. I particularly hate it when I'm just emailing with someone or just starting to talk on the phone... to me, its like pushing a relationship on me I'm not willing to enter into. If I don't think it up, its probably not going to do much for me.

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