RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (Full Version)

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DominaSusan -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 8:26:12 PM)

Thanks AAkasha for your post. I’ve been in a quandary about this too. It seems somehow disingenuous when a sub suggests rules. I’m left feeling, well not so dominate and it kind-of-gets my goat. However, I want open communication with my sub and so he needs to let me know what’s going on. So far my best solution is to create a ‘sub-time’ where my sub can talk about interesting ideas that have been rolling around. The issue of rules is now a discussion topic as we (my sub and I) move even further from vanilla and into D/s 24/7. I guess since we were vanilla for so long we are jointly crafting the new rules. However, if I had met him in a D/s capacity, I would not allow him to make any suggestions for rules.



UmbraDomina -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/10/2008 9:40:57 PM)

I have found gags stop the unwanted blathering of subs. *smiles sweetly*



LadyPact -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 12:25:51 AM)

Very good thread.  Thank you, Aakasha, for the topic.

As has been said by others, it can be a fine line.  One that when I've crossed it on the wrong side, it doesn't work for Me.  What should be D/s becomes something else.  I don't want to call it a recipe for disaster, but it sure isn't control.

This is something I've been questioning Myself a lot about lately.  <Gasp>  (Pssst.  Look there.  A Dominant who isn't completely confident about everything she does.  The horror.)   I do tend to be the type that honestly does want to know the needs and wants of a sub so I can assess if that person is a good match for Me.  I want to hear those things, but I don't want to be overloaded on them.  If I've already let a sub go too far in this area before saying "enough" it's My own fault for not doing it sooner.  I don't suppose I can blame the sub for crossing the line when I didn't show him where it was in the first place, now can I?



flutter17 -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 7:45:03 AM)

"..it generally means I have to work hard to remember the rules since I didn't initiate them anyway, and then the sub ends up sulking later when I didn't enforce rules I never put in place anyway"
 
Aakasha - thank you!! Very well said !!
 
I've had that exact thought several times. Paying attention to the communication is obviously vital.  Occasional topping from the bottom can have value. Somewhere past that, someone is just trying to push buttons.
 
"Are <thwap>  there <thwap> any <thwap> OTHER <thwap> suggestions <thwap> <thwap> you would <thwap> like to <thwap> make?"



OttersSwim -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 8:13:12 AM)

If I may, I would like to present a different opinion here from the perspective of a submissive. 

While it is true that the Lady is in charge, these are two people in a relationship both looking to get their needs and desires met in order to be (hopefully) completely fulfilled and blissfully happy.  If the submissive is presenting their needs and desires in a respectful way, and they are not obnoxious or pushy about it...where is the harm?

I can see that there are dynamics of misery or extreme denial where this would not apply, but for a dynamic where both parties are looking to be happy and fulfilled in their respective roles and actually hope to have their needs met...why wouldn't a Dominant want to at least hear the desires and needs of their sub, and encourage them to ask for such?

And if a submissive is resorting to couching their needs in round about questions...is that a reason for the Dominant to stop and really examine things?  Is there something wrong with the communication dynamic?  Is there something wrong with the Submissive...or is there something wrong with the Dominant?



PeonForHer -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 10:12:56 AM)

Are you hinting here, Otters, that some dommes could do with being a little less delicate and fragile in their dominance?

[My entrapment skills are coming along nicely, aren't they?  [;)]]



thetammyjo -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 10:24:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

If I may, I would like to present a different opinion here from the perspective of a submissive. 

While it is true that the Lady is in charge, these are two people in a relationship both looking to get their needs and desires met in order to be (hopefully) completely fulfilled and blissfully happy.  If the submissive is presenting their needs and desires in a respectful way, and they are not obnoxious or pushy about it...where is the harm?

I can see that there are dynamics of misery or extreme denial where this would not apply, but for a dynamic where both parties are looking to be happy and fulfilled in their respective roles and actually hope to have their needs met...why wouldn't a Dominant want to at least hear the desires and needs of their sub, and encourage them to ask for such?

And if a submissive is resorting to couching their needs in round about questions...is that a reason for the Dominant to stop and really examine things?  Is there something wrong with the communication dynamic?  Is there something wrong with the Submissive...or is there something wrong with the Dominant?



I don't see needs and desires as part of a relationship's rules which is how I treated the original post in this thread.

But then again look at what I said about rules and dominants. That doesn't come from no where but from years of experience. I've had slaves who tried to add in rules and frankly they think they want more rules that it is realistic for either person to support. As the dominant when those rules fall apart you are the one blamed. Best to stick to a simple short list you've internatlized and think of other things in your relationship as you working together and not your rules.



OttersSwim -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 10:34:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Are you hinting here, Otters, that some dommes could do with being a little less delicate and fragile in their dominance?

[My entrapment skills are coming along nicely, aren't they?  [;)]]


Shoo, you wicked Brit!  [;)]



OttersSwim -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 10:43:05 AM)

Tammyjo, I agree that your post was oriented to the "rules" rather than needs, but somehow by the time I got to page 3, the thread impressed me as having turned more to needs and desires rather than rules of conduct.  Dunno, perhaps I interpreted the responses wrongly.



composer83 -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 12:25:15 PM)

i don't see any problem with a sub wanting to share his fantasies with his Mistress. so long as he presents them in that manner. then You can say yes or no to it.



ShaktiSama -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 1:19:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Tammyjo, I agree that your post was oriented to the "rules" rather than needs, but somehow by the time I got to page 3, the thread impressed me as having turned more to needs and desires rather than rules of conduct.  Dunno, perhaps I interpreted the responses wrongly.


The two are not really mutually exclusive.  One of the things that many submissives need most is discipline and structure.  Asking for the imposition of order is the expression of a need.  The problem is that this need, if expressed in some over-specific way shaped by personal fantasy, then conflicts with the needs of the domme--especially the need to initiate and control her interactions with men.



thetammyjo -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 4:26:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

Tammyjo, I agree that your post was oriented to the "rules" rather than needs, but somehow by the time I got to page 3, the thread impressed me as having turned more to needs and desires rather than rules of conduct.  Dunno, perhaps I interpreted the responses wrongly.


The two are not really mutually exclusive.  One of the things that many submissives need most is discipline and structure.  Asking for the imposition of order is the expression of a need.  The problem is that this need, if expressed in some over-specific way shaped by personal fantasy, then conflicts with the needs of the domme--especially the need to initiate and control her interactions with men.


Often times, especially in the passion of a new relationship or if a sub is new they think they may need more structure than frankly they will be able to tolerate and deal with in the long-term.

Lots of rules and constant supervision is an understandable fantasy and is feasible for short terms scenes. But I have never met a long-term Ds couples where there were complex rules and the dominant constantly guides or directs the sub. Unless you are independently wealthy and don't need to work for any money, it just isn't feasible.

As the dominant I say you need to figure out what is most feasible for you to maintain then find a partner whose needs match rather than try to add not rules and rituals you are unlikely to be able to fulfill over time.



undergroundsea -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 6:28:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElanSubdued
Relationships are inherently complex because people themselves are complex. 


Elan,

It surprises me not that you expressed views I would have myself ;-)

Back to the discussion at hand, a man meets a woman. They decide to explore D/s. Now what?

This D/s dynamic is expressed through what I call rituals. By ritual, I mean any activity--whether done regularly or spontaneously--that reflects the D/s roles. For example, a ritual may be to use a title when addressing the dominant. Many of the things I like as a sub I like because to me they are a D/s ritual. Even if I suggest them, they carry value for me because of what symbolism they carry with respect to D/s, which is a fair reason to like an activity. If I like them because they represent D/s, there is a fair chance they might be interesting to the domme. I think the question is whether what I suggest also carries D/s value for the domme.

For instance, I recently provided service submission to a woman over the course of several hours. During this time, she was lying on her bed working on her computer. When I would go to her with a question, to avoid towering over her and require her to look up, I would squat or drop to a knee when speaking with her. And I would come within her view and wait for her attention so as not to interrupt whatever train of thought she might be carrying at the moment as she was typing. I did each as a gesture of deference. Here I contributed to the D/s dynamic and instituted a ritual or protocol for my behavior. Now am I topping from the bottom for having done so?

What if another sub, instead of simply taking this step, asks if he should take this step? Now is he offering up his own rules?

If the sub does not take this initiative on his own and the domme instructs him for it, she is contributing to the D/s dynamic. I think a relationship fares best when both people contribute to this dynamic upon seeing an opportunity. If a sub is suggesting rituals or protocols too much, it is possible he is being overbearing, and it is possible that he feels a void in the D/s dynamic and is seeking protocols or rituals to help him feel that he has a submissive role versus just saying that he has one. If a domme does not contribute to the D/s dynamic, the sub must draw for feeling submissive from within himself, which he can only do so long if there is not any contribution from the domme. To elaborate, a submissive would not be very content being submissive to a vanilla woman who does not participate in the D/s dynamic in some way. He would not really feel submissive and the D/s energy would flow mostly, if not entirely, in one direction only.

I think it takes some amount of security in dominance to accept suggestions from a submissive--I make this statement with the recognition that not wishing for suggestions does not necessarily come from insecurity, and that accepting suggestions does not come from only security.

If a sub is acting in this manner to the point it is uncomfortable for a domme, I think she should talk to him about it. It would help to both curtail the behavior and understand if he does feel the type of void I describe above. If there is a void, perhaps the two can find a middle ground, or perhaps the two are incompatible. If a domme is open to suggestions but does not like them spoken spontaneously, perhaps she can specify an alternate method for communicating them: designated feedback conversations held regularly, journal.

Cheers,

Sea



LadyHibiscus -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 6:38:32 PM)

Thanks for your insight, Sea.

When I think about the "suggestions" that have annoyed me in the past, I see that the bulk of them have been fetish oriented in some way. (requests for play, or some odd bit of protocol, for instance.) I am with Tammyjo, I like order around me, but I do not want a set of rules that I have to *remember* to reinforce.  If I have to work to remember that I require something done, or done in a certain way, who is being served but the list of "rules"? 

I do appreciate proactivity in a submissive, and I am happy to reinforce a spontaneous behavior by acknowledging it.  I am also going to question something offered that I do NOT like, if not stop it outright.  Somewhere in the middle, there is a range of things that don't mean a great deal to me, but potentially could mean a lot to HIM.  If it is something that doesn't bother me, interfere with what I am doing, or interfere with what I want HIM to do*, then I consider whether just being gracious and making him happier isn't the best course.  I can learn to like an awful lot of things, and who knows, maybe he wants to offer up something that I think is simply grand, but never thought of asking for. 

*ie--slave H loved to prostrate himself at his personal goddess' feet, NOT helpful when she wanted her neck rubbed...



AAkasha -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 6:42:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

Are you hinting here, Otters, that some dommes could do with being a little less delicate and fragile in their dominance?

[My entrapment skills are coming along nicely, aren't they?  [;)]]


Remember, I am not talking about suggestions, sharing of fantasies, and open communication, which all femdoms agree are positive things.
I am talking about a submissive early in a relationship setting his own rules to "help," or suggesting "rules" (he may as well be suggesting ways for her to dominate him, NOT just sharing ideas) or implementing his own rules because he believes she wants it - instead of waiting for her to establish the rules. I am not talking about rules that are fairly generic ("I'll assume you want me to contact you on your terms - what do you suggest?"), I am talking about rules that are clearly self indulgent MOST of the time, ("I wore panties today because I thought you would like it," or "I put on a butt plug before I called you because I thought you would like that," or "I shaved my crotch today for you," or "I put on my chastity device and just mailed you the key.").

I think most of the subs on this thread are smart enough to know the difference here. I don't want to turn this into "why is communication good" thread; I'm talking about whether self indulgent "here are my rules for YOUR pleasure Mistress" subs should be punted, or given another chance and chalking it up to inexperience or eagerness. Of course, it does depend on the guy.  At this point, my standards are so high, including a zero-tolerance for this kind of behavior, that very few men get far with me.  I've been working toward loosening my standards a little and trying to find out which areas I should relax about.

Akasha



undergroundsea -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 7:17:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus
When I think about the "suggestions" that have annoyed me in the past, I see that the bulk of them have been fetish oriented in some way. (requests for play, or some odd bit of protocol, for instance.) I am with Tammyjo, I like order around me, but I do not want a set of rules that I have to *remember* to reinforce.


Thank you for your post. I can see that some suggestions may be geared towards a fetish and not the D/s dynamic, and that not everyone has genuine intentions or a given person who is generally genuine may at some point make a suggestion that is only self-serving.

Your point about remembering rituals carries wisdom. One point I picked up from a speaker at a BDSM event (it might have been Laura Antoniou speaking about the importance of consistency in dominance) is that a dominant should avoid rituals that are meaningless. If they are meaningless, she might not notice if they are not followed. And a submissive will notice if a ritual is not followed and the dominant misses it.

quote:

I do appreciate proactivity in a submissive, and I am happy to reinforce a spontaneous behavior by acknowledging it.  I am also going to question something offered that I do NOT like, if not stop it outright.  Somewhere in the middle, there is a range of things that don't mean a great deal to me, but potentially could mean a lot to HIM.  If it is something that doesn't bother me, interfere with what I am doing, or interfere with what I want HIM to do*, then I consider whether just being gracious and making him happier isn't the best course.


I think accommodating a ritual about which a domme has neutral feelings but one that is meaningful to a sub can serve the domme by strengthening the D/s connection (in the bigger picture) and putting the sub into subspace that she can feel (in the more immediate picture).

Now how does one reconcile the two points in my two paragraphs above: the benefit of having rituals that are meaningful, and the benefit to allow neutral rituals that are meaningful to the sub? I am going to let Elan answer that one.

:p

quote:

*ie--slave H loved to prostrate himself at his personal goddess' feet, NOT helpful when she wanted her neck rubbed...


I have a suggestion! What if the goddess sits on the floor with her feet planted on the ground, and her knees bent. What if she then stretches forward and places her head between her feet. And next the sub prostrates himself before her feet so that they are facing each other and their heads are adjacent as their foreheads touch the ground. Now he can reach up and rub her neck!

Genius!

:p

Cheers,

Sea



undergroundsea -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 7:37:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: undergroundsea
Now how does one reconcile the two points in my two paragraphs above: the benefit of having rituals that are meaningful, and the benefit to allow neutral rituals that are meaningful to the sub? I am going to let Elan answer that one.


I wonder if the point about picking meaningful rituals was meant to be directed more at rituals that the dominant suggests. I expect that in most cases there will be a lesser need to remember a ritual that is meaningful to the sub.

Also, the purpose of rituals is to express the roles and let each person feel the role. I expect some rituals are suggested by the submissive because they are particularly meaningful, and some that are suggested more towards feeling the role. If the point about feeling the role is adequately addressed through rituals that are meaningful to both, it will lessen rituals that are suggested towards wanting to feel the role.

Also, I use the word rituals in a broader sense that is a superset of protocols. To me, a ritual does not have to be regularly observed--I consider even a spontaneous expression of D/s a ritual in the way I am using the term. I think the point about meaningful rituals applies more to those that are to become a protocol.

For instance, a domme might require that her sub always serve her at a dinner table from the left and remove items from the right because she likes this formality in service. This practice is to be followed every time she is served, or every time she has invoked that level of formality. I consider this ritual to be a protocol that must be remembered.

Slave H prostrating himself before the feet of his goddess is a ritual ;-) He might do it spontaneously to express submission towards her. Unless he is to do this each time she enters the room or anything of that sort, I do not consider this ritual a protocol.

While the title of the thread points towards protocols, I think the discussions about rituals that are not protocols are also relevant.

I know I said I would let Elan answer this question. But since I have been expressing views he would himself, I figure it would be just the same if I went ahead and did it ;-)

This post is an example of the benefit I find in forum discussions. The exercise of discussion helps me formulate thoughts and achieve greater understanding within myself about a given matter.

Cheers,

Sea



ShaktiSama -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 8:09:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I'm talking about whether self indulgent "here are my rules for YOUR pleasure Mistress" subs should be punted, or given another chance and chalking it up to inexperience or eagerness. Of course, it does depend on the guy.  At this point, my standards are so high, including a zero-tolerance for this kind of behavior, that very few men get far with me.  I've been working toward loosening my standards a little and trying to find out which areas I should relax about.

Akasha



Only you can say what any given man is worth.  I think if you want a general rule of thumb for loosening your standards, though, it's pretty simple:  if you've decided that the guy is cute and/or sexy, and he's play-worthy material in other respects?  Let him make any  given mistake once.

When the mistake is made, stop things, explain exactly what has been done wrong, and why you don't want it done again.

A man who really wants to please will be pretty mortified and agonized over every serious error.  He won't want to screw up and he'll be happy to listen and obey if it helps him not to.



AAkasha -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 8:17:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaktiSama

quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
I'm talking about whether self indulgent "here are my rules for YOUR pleasure Mistress" subs should be punted, or given another chance and chalking it up to inexperience or eagerness. Of course, it does depend on the guy.  At this point, my standards are so high, including a zero-tolerance for this kind of behavior, that very few men get far with me.  I've been working toward loosening my standards a little and trying to find out which areas I should relax about.

Akasha



Only you can say what any given man is worth.  I think if you want a general rule of thumb for loosening your standards, though, it's pretty simple:  if you've decided that the guy is cute and/or sexy, and he's play-worthy material in other respects?  Let him make any  given mistake once.

When the mistake is made, stop things, explain exactly what has been done wrong, and why you don't want it done again.

A man who really wants to please will be pretty mortified and agonized over every serious error.  He won't want to screw up and he'll be happy to listen and obey if it helps him not to.


Well, yes.  It's two part though; the first part is trying to figure out if a submissive is just misled or confused and if the reality is something he'd even be interested in (vs. just tolerating reality in hopes it will morph into fantasy); the second is whether he really just does want fantasy.  How many are salvageable, and who wants to put the work into it?

Sort of reminds me of this kind of email exchange:

Sub:  Hello Mistress
Femdom: Hello. You don't need to call me "Mistress" - I really prefer to converse as equals and not really have any protocols about superiority unless some mutual respect and chemistry is in place.
Sub: Sorry Goddess.  This slave won't make the same mistake.  My humble apologies, Ma'am.

Misguided, or wanker?

Akasha



ShaktiSama -> RE: Subs who offer up their own rules (11/11/2008 8:35:11 PM)

Lol...or just not too bright?




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