RE: What say you, slave? (Full Version)

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iwillserveu -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/7/2004 4:28:48 PM)

quote:

Oh and iwill, that's one "e" and two "t's" [;)]


Oops, sorry/

Hopes she does not guess my parakeet fetish.



anthrosub -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/7/2004 4:52:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett

anthrosub, are you a sub, or a slave? Do you understand the difference between the two? Are you satisfied that I understand the difference between the two? Do you understand that "the difference between sub and slave" was not the purpose of this thread? Further than that, at this point, I really don't give a shit whether it's legal or not. I don't care about whether or not contracts are binding, whether they look good in the baby's room, or whether it's raining in California. What I wanted to know was, what "slaves", or anyone else, had to say about the following snip of conversation that I clipped:

quote:

A slave is about what a person is, not what a person does. Clearly defining limits and expectations does not make one any less of a slave.

We part company here. I would contend that a slave is someone who surrenders their freedom to someone else. It has everything to do with what they do. They may do it because of what they are, but the act is still required.


To include anything, pro or con, that anyone might like to offer about Gor (within reason, of course), or any modications thereof.

p.s. Sherri, I happen to like your "IMNSHO" FWIW [;)] Although, sometimes it takes me quite a while to figure them out. lol


Dear Lady Beckett,
i sincerely apologize for posting in this thread responses to what others have offered as answers to Your question without contributing to the original purpose. i also apologize for exasperating You. That said, i will now answer Your questions as best i can.

Regarding the first part of the quote about "is" versus "do" i must side with the doing. To quote William James, "Before a person can be something, they must first do something." i also feel a slave is defined by more than just surrendering themselves in the BDSM context. They have surrendered their will and to the extent they embrace the consequences of this act through their behavior demonstrates their integrity and commitment to living as a slave.

Based on the statement about surrendering freedom, i would say i'm slave oriented (as i seek to surrender myself as much as possible). i see myself as a resource to be used by my Partner as She sees fit, even if that means not acting like a slave all the time. Most Dominants are not looking for a doormat with good reason, it would get boring very fast, especially in a relationship. my intent is to make myself available in whatever capacity i can (proactive service) while at the same time being available to be used nonconsensually at Her discretion.

anthrosub



LadyBeckett -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/8/2004 6:05:36 PM)

When I consider that someone "surrenders" to me, then that someone is under my control. Therefore when you say "i would say i'm slave oriented (as i seek to surrender myself as much as possible)." It indicates to me, that you may assume you retain some control. Or at least control the level of your "surrender". Which brings me to your last sentence:

quote:

while at the same time being available to be used nonconsensually at Her discretion.


Which I would like you to explain in more depth.



anthrosub -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/8/2004 7:08:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett

When I consider that someone "surrenders" to me, then that someone is under my control. Therefore when you say "i would say i'm slave oriented (as i seek to surrender myself as much as possible)." It indicates to me, that you may assume you retain some control. Or at least control the level of your "surrender". Which brings me to your last sentence:

quote:

while at the same time being available to be used nonconsensually at Her discretion.


Which I would like you to explain in more depth.


Regarding the first question about surrender, my statement means as much as is feasible or preferrable to my Partner and not a reference to any retention of control on my part. Not knowing what the context will be at this point, i can only assume there may be some constraints that need to be considered. In addition, my Partner may have Her own ideas of the structure, areas, and degree of surrender expected of me.

On reading what i wrote again using the term "nonconsensually," i think this is an error. It was meant to address the dualism that seems to be a part of slavery within the BDSM context. A "slave" has no freedom, so one might expect all actions to be involuntary. But a slave is also expected to behave proactively (i.e., performing chores and services) which requires voluntary action. i used the word to refer to anything outside proactive behavior and now realize this is wrong. A slave's actions and behavior are always a reflection of having surrendered freedom, so there's never a time when behavior is consensual.

anthrosub



yoursMaam -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 2:12:18 PM)

with all due respect MesDames Et MesPatrons, it seems to me that one is forced into slavery, initially the choice is made for them,and, no matter how well it might suit them down the line, it limits options. given a clean shot at the door with no fear of retribution, a slave will run for freedom
On the other hand, relinquishing control voluntarily is the act of a submissive. Pleasure is received from the Mistress' or Master's approval. Being shown an open door is retribution in that regard. Dismissing a submissive is an ultimate punishment.
Certainly in either case negotiations and concessions are made to improve Mistress' or Master's satisfaction with performance.
At least that is my view.



gitta -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 2:40:06 PM)

yoursMaam,

seems you may have missed something.
i am a slave, i have NEVER been one who was taken as a slave by force, when i beg a collar, it is my choice to do so. My freedom now belongs to my Master. My duty for His allowing me into His service is to do His will, serve Him with all that i am.
The door to my home was never locked, and yes i could have walked at anytime...would i, no i would not. To give another Your freedom means You are devoted to be with that person, to walk out is shame beyond any i have known.
Many say there are no slaves because it is against the law, so this slave looked in the dictionary, and found this:

slave(slav) noun. 1. a person who is owned and forced to work for someone else.
2, A PERSON COMPLETELY CONTROLLED BY A SPECIFIED INFLUENCE, EMOTION, ETC.
thought about this and looked in another dictionary, finding this:

slave(slav) noun. 1. a person held in servitude as the chattel of another. 2. ONE THAT IS COMPLETELY SUBSERVIENT TO A DOMINATING INFLUENCE.

Guess what i am saying here is, as a slave i really do get sick of being told i am not, they are not real.

So read those definitions and think a little.

i am a human that is completely subservient to a Dominating influence, they are called Master.



newflowers -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 3:28:21 PM)

anthrosub,

Thank you for the clarification.

newflowers



darkinshadows -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 4:06:24 PM)

Slav means Slavonic speaker: a member of any of the peoples of Eastern Europe and northwestern Asia that speak one of the Slavonic languages.
As slavic peoples were widly captured and enslaved in the middle ages 'slav' means 'captive'. The word slave derives via the old french 'esclave' from the medieval Latin 'sclavus' ultimately of slavic origin or 'Slav'

slave
1. person forced to work for another: a person who is forced to work for another person for no payment and regarded as the property of the person he or she worked for

2. controlled by another: a person/device/object that is totally controlled by another

captive
1. prisoner: a person or animal that is forcibly confined or restrained, especially somebody held prisoner

2. somebody dominated by emotion: somebody who is enslaved by a strong emotion such as love or anger

Hopefully the comparrisons can be seen.
Slaves exist. Consensual slaves exist. (As do non consensual)
A slave is someone responding to their insides, to their being and to what they do which in turn, makes them what they are.
A slave is what one is and what one does.

This is just a personal opinion and I do hope I have not jumped in LadyBeckett, forgive me if I have.



gitta -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 4:13:21 PM)

smiles softly, Thank you dark~angel!!

Often times this slave thinks she is typing to thin air, few actually think about looking from another side, and simply apply their rant. Good to hear from people willing to look deeper.



darkinshadows -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 4:24:59 PM)

You are most welcome sweetone... and thank You for your words

Blessings and joy on Your journey



LadyBeckett -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 5:44:56 PM)

Actually dark angel, you said something on another thread that I read several times because I thought it was quite romantic, but I was called away for something that required my immediate attention, and I've forgotten which thread it was on now that I've returned, two days later. [>:] It would have fit in perfectly here. I'll have to look for it. [;)] Your input is appreciated.



kiki blue -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 7:37:29 PM)

I really prefer the term "enthralled". Someone on a list I'm on uses the term thrall for his girls, which is a term I much prefer. I love the idea of being enthralled by someone into their ownership. While most people go 'huh' at the term thrall, I still like it.



anthrosub -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/9/2004 8:44:46 PM)

quote:

Slaves exist. Consensual slaves exist. (As do non consensual)
A slave is someone responding to their insides, to their being and to what they do which in turn, makes them what they are.
A slave is what one is and what one does.


That is a beautiful description of the whole picture to me. It says everything. i'm grateful to have read it and thank dark~angel for sharing.

anthrosub



iwillserveu -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/10/2004 2:52:27 AM)

I posted this on another forum, but it applies here

I listed myself as a slave. I consider myself a slave TO ONE AND ONLY ONE PERSON.

A sub submits freely to a dominant with some limits.

In a free society, so does a slave.

When I first started posting here I got the usual "you don't act like a 'real' slave." After explaining until I was blue in the face that I was not "their slave" nor does slave = so stupid you can't defend your own opinions, I met Lady Beckett. One thing she commanded is I call myself a "dedicated submissive". Only the word changed (I'm still me) but idiots stop telling me I'm not real.

I must remember to thank M'Lady for that.

Oh, Gitta, dark~angel, etc.,

Please tell me why only slaves

quote:

1. person forced to work for another: a person who is forced to work for another person for no payment and regarded as the property of the person he or she worked for

2. controlled by another: a person/device/object that is totally controlled by another


Sounds like a good description of a sub to me.



gitta -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/10/2004 3:10:56 AM)

iwill,

Seems to me, i never said it could not apply to a sub...however the topic of this thread is "What say you, slave". This is what i am addressing here, the original post asked slaves what they thought, i responded in the next post, because i am a slave.
If the topic was what a sub thought i would not have answered it, i am not a sub.



iwillserveu -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/10/2004 3:38:26 AM)

quote:

i am not a sub.


You don't submit to a dominant?[:D]

The line between sub and slave is extremely artificial. Yes, I'll say that to M'Lady.

Reverse racism is as stupid as racism.

Oh, as for the origional question it was "your" opinion. I see no differnce between subs and slaves. Limits apply on both.



sbmssvkitten -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/10/2004 4:19:11 AM)

i coudln't say that i got no limits but we never talk bout limits nor do we have a list lying around or did he ever look at a list. i think he goes from what we have told each other and from what he thinks goes and goes not. sometimes it feels as if he was trying to reach a limit or do something i never considered but he never ever goes too far. i trust him and it hink it would be silly waving lmits lists aroudn every time we play. he would never harm me.
am i a slave or as some 'friend' of mine says just a bratty sub as i am not gorean, (she claims to be a gorean slave:-s)? i think i am me, SN sometimes calls me sub sometimes slave usually calls my myri. at the club last saturday another slave introduced me to her dom and other people as SirNeedles slave girl. i neevr had the discussion about her what or who i am, she jsut thought it was the thing to say to introduce me to people i hadn't met before.



deannalynn -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/10/2004 6:58:37 AM)

Warm Greetings,

In the past I havent posted a lot and usually keep my thoughts and ideas to myself; it seems many have an interest or curiosity about Gor so I will explain how it fits into my life. (try to keep the guys in the little white jackets at bay)

From the get go, I was always involved in some form of bdsm, whether it was just a kink or a natural progression, I dont know. I came online and was drawn to the idea of totally surrendering to another's will and found myself years ago in a gorean chat room. I collected the books rather quickly, but I didnt read them for a very long time. My reasoning was that I didnt want something someone else wrote to influence my thoughts or feelings. Also, I hate sci-fi and fantasy. I didnt read them until I had served offline and by that time the books held a lot of meaning to me. They still suck, but if you dont focus on the fantasy side but the interactions between people you can get a lot from them. Hate to admit it , but certain parts even brought tears to my eyes. I found it hard to believe a man could write about how a slave feels or responds in certain situations.

I ended up spending a few years being owned by a gorean man. I have heard the arguments, you cant be in a relationship where its always Master/slave, what is and is not possible; I know differently. Since then, I have periodically served, and I have also delved into my local bdsm community. Because I have been on the rather extreme end of what some call Gor its really difficult finding a place to settle my feet.

Gorean for me, is just the type of relationship. Its inclusive of many pretty rites and rituals. I wouldnt even consider it consensual slavery. Everyone defines things through their own experiences and I am no different. Serving for me is such an uplifting experience, almost a feeling of total freedom; ethereal...similar to what some call sub space but without the pain.

The dynamics of the relationship may be exactly the same as some of those involved in a TPE relationship, I just find the label 'Gorean' applies to what situation I identify with. I know a gorean man would understand my mind set and motivations.

Life would be a lot easier if I had not followed this path, but I wouldnt trade it for the world.

When I spent time in my local bdsm community, only those who know me well, know that I consider myself a gorean slave. Its not something I wear on my shoulder because its looked on by many with disdain.

What "Gor" means to me, and means to another person in the community could be totally different. I think its the same within the bdsm community, subsets of subsets. Unfortunately there are those who pretend online they are in some fantasy land and riding imaginary beasts and play a role weilding swords and describe themselves as Gorean. I know I dont and the people who I interact with dont see any parallel with these people and the Gorean lifestyle.

just some ramblings,

deanna



darkinshadows -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/10/2004 9:33:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyBeckett

Actually dark angel, you said something on another thread that I read several times because I thought it was quite romantic, but I was called away for something that required my immediate attention, and I've forgotten which thread it was on now that I've returned, two days later. [>:] It would have fit in perfectly here. I'll have to look for it. [;)] Your input is appreciated.


Thank You for Your kindest words LadyBeckett, Angel is humbled by them. If You wish, please inform Angel of the general content of what Angel wrote and I would be honoured to find them for You again, if is Your desire.



darkinshadows -> RE: What say you, slave? (8/10/2004 9:35:02 AM)

quote:

That is a beautiful description of the whole picture to me. It says everything. i'm grateful to have read it and thank dark~angel for sharing.

anthrosub



*hugz you*... thank you... Angel appriciates your words



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