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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 3:45:21 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Philo,I believe she is arguing that if the big 3 Auto Co. go to congress hat in hand,and Congress in their infinite wisdom agrees to bail them out....with American tax payer money....well than the American auto worker better be taken care of.Now if the Canadian taxpayer wants to help shore up an American auto co.I am sure they would be demanding that a certain amount of production/jobs be maintained in Canada....and the Canadian gov. and Canadian taxpayers would be justified in making these demands.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 3:51:28 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


quote:

ORIGINAL:kdsub
No you are wrong...I'm not talking about destroying any jobs...


.........sighs.........

.....yes you are. Chrysler is a globalised company, creating jobs in more than one country. If, as a condition of US aid, they are required to shut down plants in other countries then that does destroy jobs in those countries. Now, you may argue that is ok...but don't try to treat me like an idiot who can't read....or are you arguing that jobs in countries outside the USA are not as important as jobs in the USA and so can be safely ignored?


In my particular comment I was talking about jobs transferred to Canada in the last month...However Yes I do think American jobs are more important than jobs outside the country...especially when I may be subsidizing them.

Butch

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 4:00:28 PM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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quote:

Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry?


only if they start making cars that aren't dependant on oil/gasoline. let's face it folks, it's time to stop making the rich oil companies richer and come up with a safer, cleaner automobile.


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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 4:13:34 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

quote:

Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry?


only if they start making cars that aren't dependant on oil/gasoline. let's face it folks, it's time to stop making the rich oil companies richer and come up with a safer, cleaner automobile.



Good point Michael

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 4:34:27 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Kd, I agree, we "have" to help out the auto industry as it accounts for 1 in 10 jobs in the country.
However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


(my italics)

...and will you still want Canadian oil at the special price you get by virtue of NAFTA?


Phil, at current market prices SURE!!!

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 4:51:18 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mrbob726
Wouldn't know, kittin - never had a husband - but I've had a wife for about forever - and she's a keeper



Aaaaaaaawwww  .

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 5:02:11 PM   
JackHammer2000


Posts: 148
Joined: 3/29/2006
From: southern california
Status: offline 		In answer to the original question, I say NO.

Let the market correct itself.  Yes, it will be painful at first.  But increasing the size of the national debt is not the answer.

Yes, people will lose their jobs.  They can get new jobs or start their own business or both.

Just my humble two cents.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 5:02:16 PM   
MasterG2kTR


Posts: 6677
Joined: 8/7/2004
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline 		Here's a copy of what I posted in another thread slightly modified by adding number 5...

ok...Let's assume GM (which would then be followed by Ford and Chrysler) gets their bailout money. Also assume (correctly) that the government will have no stake in those companies.

The government had then better get off it's ass, stop being a bunch of panty-waisted pussies, and DEMAND some strict measures for their future if they expect to get that money.

1. No bullshit average fleet MPG. ALL cars in the fleet meet the same standards and raise the standards NOW! Let's say a minimum of 25mpg city NOT highway, and all cars to be tested under REAL conditions by an independant public consumer group, not that EPA bullshit.

2. Put at least 25% of the bailout into accelerated development of alternative fuel cars. And ethanol is NOT the way to go!! Hydrogen, CNG, or Electric are best alternatives.

3. Cut ALL top executive wages to the same level of the highest paid laborer until they are solvent again. Eliminate all bonuses too.

4. Produce at least 2 or 3 no frills vehicle models that MOST americans can afford.

5. Maintain current levels of employent and wages (and maintain typical annual wage increases) with no changes allowed until they have repaid ALL government funding.


....and yes Philo....if you want to keep the jobs in Canada then you and your fellow Canadians can and should share in the bailout. As it was stated, they are a global company (headquartered here in the US) so perhaps ALL nations where they operate should contribute to the bailout!!

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 5:38:12 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackPhx

I support requiring them to return jobs to the US if they are going to use our money to bail them out, HOWEVER, I would love to see a codicil on the loans; Improve Gas mileage. The technology is already there,  they build cars with much better gas mileage for overseas sales where it is required and to be competitive. Here, they build gas guzzlers and wonder why Americans are buying more and more Imports. One of Pontiacs best MPG cars the Vibe (28/33 with great cargo space) is BARELY advertised, but they constantly run ads for their sedans and sports cars that get far worse mileage (20/28), then they wonder why they are not getting the sales...sigh. How gullable and foolish do they want us to remain when gas bounces from 2.00 to 4.00 a gallon on a regular basis?

poenkitten



Don't blame GM or Ford, blame the fucking EPA, and governmental regulations (CAFE) for less than stellar fuel economy.

Both Ford & GM sell competitively over in the EU and Asia.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 5:54:57 PM   
UncleNasty


Posts: 1108
Joined: 3/20/2004
Status: offline 		Just say no to bailouts.

Failure is as important as success.

An analogy may be helpful here.

Historically certain types of forests naturally experienced frequent, but small, wildfires. Because their frequency kept deadwood at a minimum, the fires never grew into large conflagrations. However, when government forestry services instituted fire suppression policies, they eliminated most small fires, but caused deadwood and other fuel to accumulate. When at last a fire came that could not be suppressed, it grew into a devastating inferno.

Learning from their errors, forestry services have abandoned fire suppression policies.

We've been putting out "economic" fires for a long time now. I think it is time to abandon this policy too. If the system, or any business, needs this much support it probably needs to fail.

Uncle Nasty

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 5:58:01 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Kd, I agree, we "have" to help out the auto industry as it accounts for 1 in 10 jobs in the country.
However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


(my italics)

...and will you still want Canadian oil at the special price you get by virtue of NAFTA?


Just so there is no misunderstanding…I have nothing against Canadian workers...but Chrysler is not asking Canada for aid.

This is an American company, laying off American workers, sending production all over the world…then expecting me to pay for it.

Butch


They're not asking Canada for aid because...it costs less to build cars with Canadian workers.

It's fairly simple math.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 6:00:06 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Kd, I agree, we "have" to help out the auto industry as it accounts for 1 in 10 jobs in the country.
However our govt. should require them to return production to the U.S. from Canada and also from Mexico.
Or, no loan!


(my italics)

...and will you still want Canadian oil at the special price you get by virtue of NAFTA?


Just so there is no misunderstanding…I have nothing against Canadian workers...but Chrysler is not asking Canada for aid.

This is an American company, laying off American workers, sending production all over the world…then expecting me to pay for it.

Butch


They're not asking Canada for aid because...it costs less to build cars with Canadian workers.

It's fairly simple math.



Fine then don't ask me to pay...now please show your proof that Canadian workers build cars for less.

Butch

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 6:10:20 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Fine then don't ask me to pay...now please show your proof that Canadian workers build cars for less.

Butch


I don't have to...the car manufacturers have already made that case, and apparently to the tune of billions.

Whether you're a manufacturer...or an average consumer...you don't move all your equipment, tooling, execs....and then of course build all brand new buildings to build cars (or buy BBQ's or Tupperware) to a place that costs more.  Why would you do that?

Would you arbitrarily drive 700 miles to pay $3.00 for a roll of tin foil if you could get the same or better product 3 blocks away....for $1.75?

Not likely.

Equally unlikely would be a car manufacturer moving production from Detroit (or Tennessee) to Canada unless there was a stark differential in price.

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 11/11/2008 6:11:08 PM >

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 6:46:15 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		All well and good Lookie,but if thats the case seems to me Canada has a stake in propping up GM(Ford and Chrysler next in line?)The point of this thread is whether or not US tax payers believe the US government should use US tax payers money to prop up the industry,if those same tax payers can not get a guarentee that US jobs won't be shipped north...where is the incentive to US tax payers.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 6:54:47 PM   
kdsub


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Joined: 8/16/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Fine then don't ask me to pay...now please show your proof that Canadian workers build cars for less.

Butch


Why would you do that?



So you are saying Canadian workers accept less pay and benefits?...You don't think it could be the tax structure do you?...Or perhaps subsidies paid by your government to encourage relocation could have a bearing? Or the lack of need to pay health benefits?

The above would be the reasons I would guess. Now tell me...why should I subsidize you to take jobs away from us…you are just like a third world country to us… taking food from our children’s mouths.

Some day…and it will be soon if not happening already another third world country will offer more for less than you will be willing or able to compete with…What will you think then if you are asked to pay them money to do it.

Butch

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 7:57:41 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		UN, that was an awesome analogy. I hate the word awesome, but it fits.

T

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/11/2008 8:15:20 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline 		I agree with the argument if they want a handout the other countries they operate in should be part of the handout. I am sick to death of these jackass fuckers getting tax breaks and special treatment, opening things and then shuttering them because its cheaper in canada or mexico or china or whatever bumfuck country is currently offering the most asskissage and slave labor. You want money from me? Fine, then bring every job you've shipped over seas or cross border back here, or you don't get a damn dime. plus, if we do bail your ass out, you're playing by our rules, real mpg testing, an accelerated, crash program into an alternate fuel source vehicle, and possible consoldation with your other compatriots. The globalists who say its only economics can kiss my ass, I am sick of their subsidies to lure american companies. Maybe they should pay the unemployment of the machinsts and other workers out of a job. fuckers. 

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 4:36:58 AM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

I agree with the argument if they want a handout the other countries they operate in should be part of the handout. I am sick to death of these jackass fuckers getting tax breaks and special treatment, opening things and then shuttering them because its cheaper in canada or mexico or china or whatever bumfuck country is currently offering the most asskissage and slave labor. You want money from me? Fine, then bring every job you've shipped over seas or cross border back here, or you don't get a damn dime. plus, if we do bail your ass out, you're playing by our rules, real mpg testing, an accelerated, crash program into an alternate fuel source vehicle, and possible consoldation with your other compatriots. The globalists who say its only economics can kiss my ass, I am sick of their subsidies to lure american companies. Maybe they should pay the unemployment of the machinsts and other workers out of a job. fuckers. 


It's actually simpler than that.

Stop buying things that are made outside the US.

They reason they are....is because you do.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 4:53:15 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

All well and good Lookie,but if thats the case seems to me Canada has a stake in propping up GM(Ford and Chrysler next in line?)The point of this thread is whether or not US tax payers believe the US government should use US tax payers money to prop up the industry,if those same tax payers can not get a guarentee that US jobs won't be shipped north...where is the incentive to US tax payers.


The problem is, bailing out industry is a form of protectionism which will be met around the world with protectionism against US products ie. tariffs, which won't help US industry. The last thing the world needs is protectionism but no one is going to let the US break trade laws while they have to abide by them.

The only relief for any manufacturing industry is to make products people want and the big three US companies can't get enough Americans to buy their products, never mind foreigners so what is the point of throwing tax payers money at them?

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 6:19:54 AM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

I agree with the argument if they want a handout the other countries they operate in should be part of the handout. I am sick to death of these jackass fuckers getting tax breaks and special treatment, opening things and then shuttering them because its cheaper in canada or mexico or china or whatever bumfuck country is currently offering the most asskissage and slave labor. You want money from me? Fine, then bring every job you've shipped over seas or cross border back here, or you don't get a damn dime. plus, if we do bail your ass out, you're playing by our rules, real mpg testing, an accelerated, crash program into an alternate fuel source vehicle, and possible consoldation with your other compatriots. The globalists who say its only economics can kiss my ass, I am sick of their subsidies to lure american companies. Maybe they should pay the unemployment of the machinsts and other workers out of a job. fuckers. 


It's actually simpler than that.

Stop buying things that are made outside the US.

They reason they are....is because you do.




I buy american as much as humanly possible. Don't assume because of an angry rant that I don't.


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“I am the punishment of God...If you had not committed great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you.”

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