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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 5:06:31 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Even this would be understandable considering the economic situation…BUT… rather than discontinuing production entirely they are transferring the production to a plant in Canada.

well...maybe american unions will learn their lesson and stop being twats.

how many toyota factories are shutting down?

Exactly. If people want to start pointing fingers......start pointing at the United Auto Workers Union. Over paid and building shit products.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 5:09:22 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

It's actually simpler than that.

Stop buying things that are made outside the US.

They reason they are....is because you do.

I'll buy what's the cheapest and what's the highest quality. I don't care where it's made.

And therein lies the "problem".

Those that complain about the third world usurping our prestige in the world...simply need to stop buying those products.

(Something tells me they won't).

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 5:11:17 PM

LookieNoNookie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The thread is not about whether Chrysler or GM is making good cars...or whether workers are overpaid. It is only about giving tax money to a company that moves jobs outside the country for profit.

Exclusively American tax money...where it should be tax money from every nation involved or not at all... Let them go bankrupt but I don't feel it fair I subsidize Canada or Mexican workers

Butch

Hon...be assured...American tax money is not being spent sending jobs to Canada.

(However...no doubt Canadian tax money is).

< Message edited by LookieNoNookie -- 11/12/2008 5:24:01 PM >

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 5:28:25 PM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

variation30 I do agree that the japanese do a better job on quality I work in a plant that is jointly owned and seen the difference with a Japanese head and GM heading up operations and the concern with quality

but the cost difference has a different reason

And I have a way to prove it ...go to some auto parts store and ask for the price of a water pump for an american made car similar in size to your toyota and then ask the price for the water pump for yours.. most of the parts for the toyota will be 2 to 3 times as much ..the money is made in the sale of service parts.

And then there's cheap but overpriced!
I have a friend who had a Lexus.
Once it went off warranty the breakdowns started.
And those parts are 2 to 3 times as high as Toyota who makes Lexus.
And I mean big bucks!
He told me one piece for something or other cost him $480!
Lots of electrical problems on it!
And he told me that an exhaust job on those things is $3,500!
He finally got rid of it and bought a 2003 Corvette and hasn't had any problems with it at all.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 11/12/2008 5:31:13 PM >

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 5:39:38 PM

nightphoenix

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

My Mountaineer was 28k in 99. I am still driving it, no mechanical problems other than scheduled maintained. I've had a few friends burn through a toyota, 2 honda's and buick. My old mans ford has 386K miles on it...and it still runs good. Quality. not cheap.

The Chevy Nova I paid $700 for 15 years ago lasted well over 200k miles. Quality and cheap!

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 7:50:46 PM

thornhappy

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(fast reply)

This morning I heard Robert Reich on NPR (The Marketplace Morning Report) and he raised a very interesting question. Instead of bailing them out, why aren't they going Chapter 11 and reorganizing?

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/12/2008 8:49:08 PM

Lorr47

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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

The thread is not about whether Chrysler or GM is making good cars...or whether workers are overpaid. It is only about giving tax money to a company that moves jobs outside the country for profit.

Exclusively American tax money...where it should be tax money from every nation involved or not at all... Let them go bankrupt but I don't feel it fair I subsidize Canada or Mexican workers

Butch

quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Before I give money to American Express or any other credit card company, I would give it to the automotive industry. The credit card industry was the largest contributor to Bush etc. and they were paid back by destruction of the bankruptcy code as far as personal bankruptcy is concerned. Not bashing Republicans only, some Democrats got their share. Kennedy fought every new provision knowing he would lose, a profile in courage.

However, if we reach the automotive industry then you should consider Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Act. There still is a bankruptcy act of note for businesses (wonder why). Chapter 11 has for years been the way it was determined whether a business was still viable and whether pouring more money into a business would even help. Is it even worth while to sink more money in the automotive industry? A time in Chapter 11 would tell us the answer at a minimal monetary cost. There may be other industries more worthy of the money. We destroyed our rail way industry years ago. We will need it in the future. If an inspired leadership can rebuild the railway industry nationwide that may give us the jobs increase, productivity increase and fuel savings we are looking for. I like trains.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 12:45:12 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And then there's cheap but overpriced!
I have a friend who had a Lexus.
Once it went off warranty the breakdowns started.

Everyone has a friend that proves their point popeye but in every quality listing in just about every market in the world, the top quality rated cars are Japanese and German. Most lists use customer based satifaction surveys so its the customers that deciding which are quality and the sales seem to say they are putting their money where their mouthes are.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 7:16:43 AM

Irishknight

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LookieNoNookie

Well said.

Clearly, Toyota, among others, have proven that cars will sell if built to consumer tastes.

All U.S. car sales are down...some more than others.

It's rather telling that U.S. manufacturers are down more than others.

The last report I read put Toyota's losses this year right up there among the big 3. Nobody is doing well this year because of the record price gouging on gas.

As for quality, I have watched the guys with the big Toyota's brag about how great their trucks are and then drag their bottoms hauling the same loads my Ford routinely hauls. I have not had a serious problem with my truck in the 4 years I have owned it. My dad's Mazda pickups were both rattling themselves apart in 4 years. Had he spent that much money on one Ford, he would have had a better truck for the whole time.
Have I ever been asked to partake in a survey of quality buy one of these unbiased sources everyone sites? Nope. As long as I am happy with my vehicle that was built 90% from american and canadian parts, they don't want my opinion.
All polls are flawed and most are purposely slanted to prove someone's point.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 9:51:29 AM

BlackPhx

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When it comes to vehicles..you buy what is going to get the job done and be reliable..or should. Chapter 11 would POSSIBLY be a good thing for the Automakers, but until they change their practices and and serve the consumer with quality cars that include the features that most foreign makers put as standards, sales are not going to go up. They may not for some time until people are working again and credit is available. Few people can plunk down 16+K for a car in cash. Bailing them out isn't going too make credit available to the person or business who needs to buy the product they make, no matter where it is made.

There are a few states that are Right to Work States like Florida..few Unions have a toehold here and that means lower salaries if factories are here.

Anyway you look at it, raining money from the top down isn't going to cure the ills..it also has to be available from the ground UP to support purchasing, which makes jobs, which means more to spend as consumers, which means healthier company bottom lines.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 10:46:01 AM

popeye1250

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

And then there's cheap but overpriced!
I have a friend who had a Lexus.
Once it went off warranty the breakdowns started.

Everyone has a friend that proves their point popeye but in every quality listing in just about every market in the world, the top quality rated cars are Japanese and German. Most lists use customer based satifaction surveys so its the customers that deciding which are quality and the sales seem to say they are putting their money where their mouthes are.

Meat, you're correct, and my friend put his money where his mouth is too.
Those Lexus's and Infinities etc are *cash cows* for the companies once they go off warranty!
Why should a part for a Lexus cost three or four times what a Toyota part would cost? They're basically the same cars made by the same company!
And as for "quality ratings" wouldn't it be reasonable to *expect* that a car that costs $50-$60k have more quality?
That's the "hook" on those types of cars, the companies that make them figure that if you can "afford" those kinds of prices to buy them then you can "afford" to pay those kinds of prices for parts and labor.
I'm sure that if you paid $100k for a Mercedes you'd expect more "quality" too.
My friend bought a "50th anniversary" version Corvette, a 2003 I'm pretty sure.
I have a pic of me standing next to it in my photo album, I'll post it in my profile

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 10:54:15 AM

meatcleaver

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The indestructable Toyota has become a legend in Britain and in Europe where the British car programme Top Gear is broadcast.

Parts one and three.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-B_bbKtVIrE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZDtC9kjVk

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 10:58:07 AM

kdsub

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I’m going to change the direction of my own thread a little. I’ve noticed many comments about unions and high pay and benefits. Most comments had a negative tilt.

I believe unions provide many benefits both to the worker and to the consumer. American workers, especially union workers as a group, have proven to be amoung best in the world. They are the best educated and skilled and display pride in their work.

Notice how third world country workers are taken advantage of. An unhappy worker will not do his best work...go that little extra when needed. In many cases they band together to form unions for protection just as we did here in America at the turn of the century.

Many unions require apprenticeships that provide excellent training and quality control. Yes their work costs a little more but it is the best for the money.

Unions are not crazy…they understand that at times concessions are required and they have done just that in the auto business. Yes they have fought to be sure their workers are not taken advantage of but they have made good decisions.

Unions are not the problem in the auto industry… the more you make…the better the benefits… the better the work production AND the more afraid you are of loosing your job.

As usual it is management that has made the big mistakes...Maximum profit instead of maximum quality at a reasonable profit. There is nothing wrong with well-trained non-union employees. Many have been trained in union situations. There is also nothing wrong with union employees in fact they will always be a plus to your company.

Over the years many state and federal laws have made unions less necessary…although the last 25 years corporate greed has begun to take advantage of the worlds less fortunate.

If I were a company owner I would want a good product produced by happy well-paid workers even if it meant a smaller profit margin. I would welcome union workers and would be open about my company finances with the union so we could grow together.
Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 11/13/2008 11:17:40 AM >

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 2:10:15 PM

soul2share

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Quite frankly, NO! I've watched the unions demand unbelievable pay and benefits for decades......some of the line workers make more than some PHd friends of mine do. This in turn makes other costs go up right down the line. The upper eschelon "big wigs" get 6 figure bonuses a year....bonus for what????.....showing up to work? BTW, I'm not union bashing or anything like that.....but I knew that one day, their contract demands would bite them in the ass. Good luck getting the union to give up some of their pay and benefits....they'd rather put hundreds of people out of work than take a cut in pay so everyone has a job, and to do what they can for the companies that they work for......there's no loyalty to the company with them!

If they need funds, well then, they can come up with them in other ways than taxpayer money. There are some good suggestions here, especially in freezing wages at their current level, the big wigs giving up their bonuses, and cut their pay...after all, what exactly do they do to earn their keep? Tell the unions tough shit, the free ride is over. I feel for retirees, and know that they count on their benefits, but I've seen other companies cut their benefits....my dad just got notice from Kodak that my mom won't be covered under his benefits soon.......which will end up costing them more for health insurance for her. Retiree benefits are the first casualty in most budget cut programs, I've seen it happen countless numbers of times.

If they want to generate money, then yep, they need to start rethinking the whole issue of affordable products, and fuel efficient products! I bought a scooter as a temporary fix when I had an accident that totaled my car....this was before the gas prices went into the stratosphere....but based on the cost of a vehicle and it's upkeep, the cost to feed the vehicle....no way am I giving up my little scooter for a vehicle! $6 a week for gas.....80 miles to the gallon.....granted, I can ride year around here, but it's a great alternative to a car.

ok, that's just my .05.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 2:28:59 PM

rulemylife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Exactly. If people want to start pointing fingers......start pointing at the United Auto Workers Union. Over paid and building shit products.

That may have been the case twenty years ago, but if you look at quality and reliabilty ratings in Consumer Reports or JD Powers you'll find many Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, and Honda models rated lower than comparable American brands.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 2:33:59 PM

LaTigresse

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I've seen unions from the inside. Pride in work? Skilled? Best educated? Quality control?

My ass.

The guy I share the farm with, worked in human resources at a large manufacturing facility. I cannot tell you the rediculous demands when it was time for renegotiation or the hoops they had to jump through, and the time it took (2 years), to fire one horrible employee.

My ex father in law worked for Northwest. No one installing airplane doors needs to make 6 figures a year. Oh poor him, union out the door and he had to find another job.

My son is an apprentice in the local plumber's union. He is sent on jobs he has no business doing but the union doesn't care. They don't care if he is qualified, skilled or even supposed to be doing the work they have him do. He risks losing his job if he declines. He is told just to keep his mouth shut. One guy routinely showed up high on crack, but because he was a long term employee and union member, hush hush, cover his ass and ours. EVEN when he physically attacked another employee, the cops were called and charges filed, by the person attacked that was admonished for doing so. Of course the crack head kept his job. Who cares if his work was substandard, the union is there to take care of him. And so on and so forth.

The union members hide behind their unions to get away with rediculous shit no non union worker would be allowed. They are over payed. The laborers union has routinely tried to turn my company into a union shop. Every single employee here says "HELL NO!!"

As for the over payment of upper management, that's also routine. Talk to the shareholders who's ass they are kissing. Because that's what it always comes down to. Do whatever it takes to turn a profit to keep shareholders happy. They hire the best ass kissers to do it.

So yeah, I don't care if the big three go into the crapper. Maybe then someone will come along that knows how to run a company and produce a decent product for a decent price. All while treating all their employees fairly. Shareholders be damned.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 11/13/2008 2:35:25 PM >

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 2:39:17 PM

rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When companies move jobs out of the country, some of the profits come back.

Is it me or isn't there that many capitalists in America any more?

And the lost jobs?

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 2:40:44 PM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Exactly. If people want to start pointing fingers......start pointing at the United Auto Workers Union. Over paid and building shit products.

That may have been the case twenty years ago, but if you look at quality and reliabilty ratings in Consumer Reports or JD Powers you'll find many Mercedes, BMW, Toyota, and Honda models rated lower than comparable American brands.

Funny, when I was researching to buy a new car, Toyota (and the Toyota product GM was selling) and Mazda were rated better than a comparable model with GM or Ford. I even test drove several and the Mazda was much more solid feeling, rode better, and had many more options for the price.

I bought the Mazda.

My Chevy sold, Toyota (Corolla/Prizm) is still running strong at 270,000 miles. I would have bought another but Chevy does not sell Prizm's any longer. I considered the new Corolla but went with the sportier Mazda this time. One year and 28 thousand miles, I am still loving it.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 2:48:59 PM

rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: variation30

well...maybe american unions will learn their lesson and stop being twats.

how many toyota factories are shutting down?

Toyota and most other foreign manufacturers are doing just as poorly in sales. Their advantage is they don't have the legacy cost that American manufacturers do. This was their own decision and their own mismanagement of that decision. They preferred to defer their labor costs in future benefits in exchange for greater immediate profit.

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RE: Should The US provide aid to the automotive industry? - 11/13/2008 3:07:30 PM

rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Funny, when I was researching to buy a new car, Toyota (and the Toyota product GM was selling) and Mazda were rated better than a comparable model with GM or Ford. I even test drove several and the Mazda was much more solid feeling, rode better, and had many more options for the price.

I bought the Mazda.

My Chevy sold, Toyota (Corolla/Prizm) is still running strong at 270,000 miles. I would have bought another but Chevy does not sell Prizm's any longer. I considered the new Corolla but went with the sportier Mazda this time. One year and 28 thousand miles, I am still loving it.

I said many models, not all. I haven't taken the time to compare every model in every category, but there are Toyota models rated lower than many comparable Ford or Chrysler models. Mercedes, particularly, has had well-publicized reliability and quality control problems in recent years.

Regardless, I think it is an unfair assumption that the quality and reliability of the vehicle is the fault of the person building it rather than the design itself. I also think it is unfair to assume that the majority of people do not inherently want to do a good job at whatever their occupation is and will rather take shortcuts and slack off if they can.

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