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RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 7:15:06 AM

OttersSwim

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So let's warp this even more...does our community perceive it more acceptable for a woman to be a switch than a man? If so...then why?

I believe the answer is "Yes"...

If you agree that the answer is Yes...then what does that imply about the overall perception of the traditional roles of women and men in the BDSM community? A couple of ways of looking at that and it will be interesting and telling to see folk's thoughts.

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Post #: 21

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 7:24:24 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Usako

Being a switch gets treated a lot like bisexuality. Some people just can't grasp that people can go both ways nor can they grasp that just because someone goes both ways means they won't be happy staying on one side of the fence.

As for being a switch means you "need both" isn't always true. Maybe some do need to always switch up but plenty are happy staying submissive or dominant, it depends on who the partner is. I don't really "need" either, I just happen to enjoy both sides. That doesn't mean I'll be unhappy if someone only fits one end of the role.

I've found this to be really true over the years. I'm a true bisexual... what I call 'ambisexterous', because gender is really pretty irrelevant to me. That doesn't mean I love -everyone- of both genders... just that I don't really care what the plumbing is if I become attached to someone. My Darling is what I call 'heteroflexible'... she really prefers guys, but sometimes a woman comes into her life, and she just doesn't want to let the opportunity slip away without that woman (or man, where the heteroflex is male) as part of her life. One of our beloveds was homoflexible... in general he liked men... but then he met my Darling, and they just... clicked.

Maybe it's a matter of just being a generally chaotic and malleable person, but it seems to me that being whole and happy is more important than fitting consistently into a particular box. In general, I'm dominant, and that's part of my nature. I'm just a bossy, control-freak kinda person. My Darling is, too... and you know what, sometimes I just decide that it's healthier for our relationship for me to just let go of something that is more important to her than it is to me, and let her be the one making the call... so heck, being part of a long-term relationship with two pushy broads involved -does- work better if one of us can back down. I back down more easily than she does, so unless it's crucial to me, I don't mind letting her have her way. Does that make me a switch? Heck, I don't know. Maybe it does. If it does, then I guess I'm "Dominant-flexible", rather than "ambidominous"... I can give up control, but only in specific circumstances with specific people, and when -I- choose to do so, not because someone else -orders- me to.

Honestly, isn't it so much easier to just get to know a person as a person, and then figure out how the dynamic fits? The chaotic and the anarchist in me says "screw the little boxes".

_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to Usako)

Post #: 22

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 7:33:47 AM

LadyConstanze

Posts: 9722
Joined: 2/18/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So let's warp this even more...does our community perceive it more acceptable for a woman to be a switch than a man? If so...then why?

I believe the answer is "Yes"...

If you agree that the answer is Yes...then what does that imply about the overall perception of the traditional roles of women and men in the BDSM community? A couple of ways of looking at that and it will be interesting and telling to see folk's thoughts.

I think that would be simply the fact that more men than women are openly into BDSM and if it comes down to the choice of compromising or losing out completely, guys might decide to rather compromise...

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Those who do and those who don't!

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(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 23

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 7:35:58 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So let's warp this even more...does our community perceive it more acceptable for a woman to be a switch than a man? If so...then why?

I believe the answer is "Yes"...

If you agree that the answer is Yes...then what does that imply about the overall perception of the traditional roles of women and men in the BDSM community? A couple of ways of looking at that and it will be interesting and telling to see folk's thoughts.

Before I walk down this landmine-infested road, I want to say that there are some cultural/community generalizations here, showing -trends- that I've noticed within the community, and that I -recognize-, completely, that many very outspoken members of the community who participate in this venue do not fit these generalizations... but there is a significant portion of the community not fully represented by those who speak out often in this venue, and the generalizations -do- mesh with my experiences in 25 years of interaction with the 'community-at-large'.

I find that the "community-at-large" still has issues with males in -any- role that isn't strictly dominant, EXCEPT for the gay male portion of the community, which is, in my experience, substantially more flexible, but also not nearly as represented in the 'community-at-large' as they are in their own more insular sub-groupings. Submissive males are essentially dismissed by both many d-type males -and- many s-type females, and switches have to deal with vacillating acceptance that rises when they 'accept' their place as dominants, and sinks into the very bottom of the toilet when they express their submission.

In general, though, female dominants still get a lot of short shrift in the current community of WIITWD as well, though with an exception in the lesbian subgroup, which has many of the same features of being less well represented and less involved in the mainstream community as the gay male population expressing WIITWD. Again, they're often dismissed by a significant portion of the male d-types -and- many of the female s-types as well. In addition, female switches are encouraged to "pick one or the other"... and subtly manipulated into choosing the 's' side by not only the community of WIITWD, but by the general community as well, who still, even in the 21st century, have this ingrained concept that subtly expresses that women -really- should be under a man's scrutiny and control, and shouldn't 'exceed' herself.

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 11/13/2008 7:42:30 AM >

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***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 24

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 7:41:36 AM

Rover

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

So let's warp this even more...does our community perceive it more acceptable for a woman to be a switch than a man? If so...then why?

I don't believe this is unique to the BDSM community. In fact, I believe much the same can be said for all of society which has an expectation (both tacit and overt) that men should be the "leaders". Similarly, it's far more acceptable for women to be bisexual.

Just another example of the fact that we are simply a slice of the greater society, and not some entirely different animal.

John

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(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 25

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 7:58:37 AM

OttersSwim

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Calla, thank you for your thoughtful reply. You are right, it is a subject full of landmines, but it got me thinking which this early in the a.m. can be bad! My Lady identifies as a switch (she lists here as dominant) and as such I read a bit anytime any switchy topics come up and I have also seen what you have said about the perception of switches and male subs and that got me thinking here about how our community still falls largely into standard gender roles of male and female and how some tend to look down on those that are contrary to those traditional roles.

Maybe it is because I am in a "contrary role" as a male submissive, but my Lady being submissive to another man does not wig me out or make me question her dominance in the least. It is part of who she is and I think it is pretty wonderful as she has direct and personal experience in the things she is doing to -me-.

*goes for more coffee so as to be more coherent*

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(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 26

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 8:25:39 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

First the original and then the follow up. Yes, I do tend to think it is that portion of those who identify as switch wanting to be in both the Dom role and the sub role simultaneously with different partners that influences what a lot of people think. The same does happen with those who identify as bisexual, and it was an excellent analogy. Being poly Myself, those things don't factor in with Me, but I can understand that it might be seen differently by others. Also, you have to consider that not every submissive can do well to see their Dominant being dominated by someone else. It doesn't work for them because they need to see their Dominant in a particular light. The same is true in reverse. Not every Dominant can accept their submissive being Dominant to a third party.

As to the question about which gender has been more accepted, I would agree that it is absolutely the females on both counts, switching and bisexuality. We are still a part of society as a whole, and some of those mainstream thoughts do trickle down into our kink communities. For example, most of us don't have an issue seeing a female as the CEO of a large corporation, but how do we feel about her male personal assistant? I think society in general is more accepting of one than the other. In the case of bisexuality, the acceptance of a female far outreaches that of males. Personally, I happen to think the acceptance of one gender being so, but not the other to be completely ridiculous, but it does work that way in the views of many.

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Post #: 27

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 8:28:48 AM

pdv99

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I'm 100% with Stingerd86, in my feelings and my experience of other's reactions.

Some people define roles and then shoehorn people into them and dismiss anyone who doesn't fit as not a serious BDSMer.

It may be that, like MasterforRT, you only ever feel you belong in one role, but please accept that some of us feel different at different times, change as we go through life, and react differently to different people.

All real relationships are complex and individual things, so even just saying "I'm a Dom/me and you are a sub" doesn't define a relationship. Relating to a switch is no more or less likely to produce a healthy relationship than anyone else, so don't be afraid to respond to one - they may turn out to be just the perfect dominant or submissive you were looking for, because their relationship to you could turn out to fulfill their emotional needs - not all switches need to flip-flop from one state to another.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 28

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 8:37:37 AM

VampiresLair

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
Why can't my preference be respected without words like "prejudice" or "fear" being thrown about?

I second, or third, this. I do not like switches not because they might not be compatible but because I cannot fulfill all their needs. I can not have a submissive of mine who dominates someone else, the situation makes me uncomfortable. I cannot expect a switch to happily give up all of their dominant side to be with me, because that is asking for trouble. However, my preference for someone strictly submissive often gets me told off for being close minded and petty, selfish on occasion.
However, it comes down to which of us gets their way, doesnt it? Either I give up my preference to consider someone, knowing I do not like the situation and doom it from the start moreso because I did not want the situation to begin with. Or, the other person accepts they are not my type and we move on. I do not care for dominant men, either. Does that make me prejudiced as well?

DV

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(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 29

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 8:52:59 AM

Hathalud

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If my dominant was to suddenly flip into a submissive mode and I was to actively see him submitting.....I have to tell you that it would warp my mind in such a way that I could never again hold him in a position where I could look up to and respect him.

[[edit]] I realize in retrospect that you were talking about seeing your dominant sub to someone else. No flip mid scene, so you can disregard me if you want. :P I can totally understand seeing someone in a particular light and not wanting to change that light.

Mistoferin, it doesn't work like that with most of us. We don't suddenly get a desire to flip moods. A switch's moods are generally subject to Newton's Laws of Motion. In the beginning of a scene, we might be malleable as to what mood we are in, maybe. It really depends on the day's events and that scenario itself. But once we get into a scene and are going, we've built up this momentum of one mood, be it dom or sub and we don't want to stop it until the scene culminates to it's final ending.

I was with someone once that said that they use to switch but now all they do is dom. I had made the assumption that they would like to experience their submissive side a bit. So I threw myself into my dom mindframe and began subtly aserting control, it went on for a few minutes until they realized what I was doing and flipped the situation. I had to pause, litterally pause and reset my mind and mood back to square one. It's not fun. It's like being told you have to stop peeing prematurely. If you're not use to having to do that (which for the sake of my arguement it is) it's rather painful to do. Anyways, come to find out they deliberately didn't sub anymore, hence the sudden shift in their roles. Hehehe, they'd just assumed I was being an agressive lover up until that point.

The worst case scenario with a switch is a fight for dominance. Some of us do that. Some of us love that sort of thing. Some of us don't. Most of us love to just sub when we sub and dom when we dom. And frequently that role is set for us per relationship. Certain people we'll dom, other's we'll sub... and other's we'll switch with. *chuckles* The best of all worlds.

Me? I also like to play a little game of "equals" with other switches on occassion. Think super kinky sex with neither taking a lead or a follower role, but we brought our pain game. But this isn't something I like to do all the time, just with some people. It's one of my 31 flavors, spank-you very much. *blows a raspberry*

And for what it's worth, I could see myself in a family as a primary/best boy, never really the absolute authority, but one of the heads of the household. Just not -the- head of that household. *giggles* Although the family I do have at the moment is -mine- and I wouldn't give that up for the world.

Anyways, take from this what you will. I'm not trying to push you into being with a switch. That's your perogative. I just wanted to explain how the fear of a switch flipping mid scene is unlikely.

Cheers and have a lovely day,
Hath`alud

< Message edited by Hathalud -- 11/13/2008 9:06:45 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 30

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 8:56:29 AM

OttersSwim

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You know, I would imagine that it would depend on the outward expression of the preference....and isn't that a lot of what prejudice is about? How it is expressed is likely directly proportional to how it is perceived - a prejudice vs. a preference...

I want to type more on this, but I have to go to work...more later.

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Post #: 31

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 8:58:46 AM

DiurnalVampire

Posts: 8125
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From: Nashville, TN
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No matter how it is expressed, when it is against you it is a prejudice when it deprives someone of what they want, it is a preference when it is what they want regarless of who it impacts.
Jusr how I have seen it.

DV

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I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

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If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

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VampiresLair

(in reply to OttersSwim)

Post #: 32

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 9:03:10 AM

mistoferin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hathalud

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

If my dominant was to suddenly flip into a submissive mode and I was to actively see him submitting.....I have to tell you that it would warp my mind in such a way that I could never again hold him in a position where I could look up to and respect him.

Mistoferin, it doesn't work like that with most of us. We don't suddenly get a desire to flip moods. A switch's moods are generally subject to Newton's Laws of Motion. In the beginning of a scene, we might be malleable as to what mood we are in, maybe. It really depends on the day's events and that scenario itself. But once we get into a scene and are going, we've built up this momentum of one mood, be it dom or sub and we don't want to stop it until the scene culminates to it's final ending.

I guess I wasn't expecting anyone to take me quite so literally. I do understand switches. What I meant was that the ONLY orientation that works for me as a partner is a man who doesn't EVER have the notion or the ability to experience the opposing orientation. If he were ever say to me that he wanted to experience kneeling at the foot of a woman and licking her boots while she shoved a dildo up his ass.....sorry....we're done. I don't say that to offend anyone, it is simply the way it is. I would also have to say that it is that way for a whole lot of folks. That isn't a slam to those who switch.

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(in reply to Hathalud)

Post #: 33

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 9:35:32 AM

allthatjaz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

While I'm not prejudiced at all of switches for some people like myself we're not interested in someone who takes on whatever role seems to work in whatever situation.

Some of us want a man who is a dominant personality. He doesn't take on a role..it just is his personality. He is a leader, a take charge sorta guy in and out of the bedroom. It just is who he is.

So for me personally, a switch would never work. It's a preference just like some who are tall, skinny, short, blond, whatever. It's what they're attracted to.

Interesting because that is just how I thought up until a short while back, then I met someone where everything just fell into place.

We are both sadists, we are both edge players, we both have a dominance in us and we both have to fight with each other, overpower each other and eventually..of a kind.. submit to each other.
Neither of us ever discuss who is going to take a role. Both of us continually plan how to get the better in a dominant sense. It just evolves and its incredibly exciting.

I used to walk past a guy tawsing his girl in a club. Later I would walk past and she would be tawsing him and I used to think 'whats in there heads?' 'how can they do that?' I still know that I could never do that but I understand that between these couples is an equal balance and it works.

I used to only ever dominate and had no desire to submit. I knew I just hadn't met anyone who I believed could dominate me or take my head that way. Funny how the very man that dominated me and can take me to that place is the same man that I can overpower.

People like to do the Sir/Mistress thing, to be good little boys and girls, or be 'all powerful' over a submissive. People like to tell you whats wrong and whats right because that is the way they think. So long as you can find your own balance then it matters not what others think......................................... ignorance is lack of understanding.

(in reply to littlewonder)

Post #: 34

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:03:40 AM

leadership527

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~FR~
I prefer to actually understand who someone is and THEN decide whether I like them as a partner or not. If I'm going to judge someone on their self-identification label, I'd prefer to make sure I know what they mean by it before I render my final judgement. After that, if I don't find that a suitable partner for myself, I call it preference not prejudice.

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I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
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Post #: 35

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:05:33 AM

lilMsSunshine

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Thank You for the insight into switching. I like you have run across negative perception of what it is, and like everything else. People will judge based on what they know, or what they think they know. For myself, like you, I switch under different situations in different partnerships. I see it as being a solution to having multidimensional needs and desires. Why forbid yourself to express and experience all that you are because it doesn't fit in with someone Else's point of view. We could stand to be more open minded, but that would mean considering someone other then ourselves.

(in reply to stingerd86)

Post #: 36

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:07:29 AM

Hathalud

Posts: 33
Joined: 11/4/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

While I'm not prejudiced at all of switches for some people like myself we're not interested in someone who takes on whatever role seems to work in whatever situation.

Some of us want a man who is a dominant personality. He doesn't take on a role..it just is his personality. He is a leader, a take charge sorta guy in and out of the bedroom. It just is who he is.

So for me personally, a switch would never work. It's a preference just like some who are tall, skinny, short, blond, whatever. It's what they're attracted to.

Interesting because that is just how I thought up until a short while back, then I met someone where everything just fell into place.

We are both sadists, we are both edge players, we both have a dominance in us and we both have to fight with each other, overpower each other and eventually..of a kind.. submit to each other.
Neither of us ever discuss who is going to take a role. Both of us continually plan how to get the better in a dominant sense. It just evolves and its incredibly exciting.

I used to walk past a guy tawsing his girl in a club. Later I would walk past and she would be tawsing him and I used to think 'whats in there heads?' 'how can they do that?' I still know that I could never do that but I understand that between these couples is an equal balance and it works.

I used to only ever dominate and had no desire to submit. I knew I just hadn't met anyone who I believed could dominate me or take my head that way. Funny how the very man that dominated me and can take me to that place is the same man that I can overpower.

People like to do the Sir/Mistress thing, to be good little boys and girls, or be 'all powerful' over a submissive. People like to tell you whats wrong and whats right because that is the way they think. So long as you can find your own balance then it matters not what others think......................................... ignorance is lack of understanding.

Permission ta lust after you? *flips from subbie to dommy* Ahhhh, fudge it... *chuckles* I am gonna anyways. *blows a raspberry*

I gotta say, that's a beautiful relationship and I'm glad you two have it. I'd love to have something similar myself. My spirituality and my emotional and psychological needs require an equal. Else my personal growth and evolution will be hindered.

The ability to flip with one another, have the trust that allows either of you to be hurt by the other.... and the love to make sure that you don't get carried away in inflicting the pain..... simply beautiful. And the mental challenge of that struggle you two have, taking dominance and maintaining it by control and distraction, lots of fun.

Cheers and keep on rocking and rolling,
Hath`alud

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 37

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:12:47 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

We are both sadists, we are both edge players, we both have a dominance in us and we both have to fight with each other, overpower each other and eventually..of a kind.. submit to each other.
Neither of us ever discuss who is going to take a role. Both of us continually plan how to get the better in a dominant sense. It just evolves and its incredibly exciting.

It seems like people keep using "dominate" and "submit" (and forms thereof) interchangeably with what I consider to be "topping" and "bottoming". I can top someone from now until next Tuesday, but I can never be dominant or dominate someone. Topping and bottoming is what I do (a "role" if you will)... a submissive woman is who I *AM*.

Cali

_____________________________

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(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 38

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:20:51 AM

allthatjaz

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I will add to that, that being on the scene I know a lot of dominant men and I can't count how many have approached me to ask if I could possibly do a session with them. It's always the same old same old, 'My sub can't find out about this because I would lose her head' or 'I just really fancy trying it to see how it feels for her'. Closet submission is at an all time high with many dominant men especially the ones with the big names like 'Lord and Master of the Universe'.

I used to be on here as a dominant woman and I got endless mail from Dominant men wanting to submit to me and for the dominant men I have scened with in (for them) a reverse role, I have found them to be the keenest of the lot to call me Mistress and lick my boots!

I think its sad that they are afraid to tell there submissive that they need to taste this route too sometimes but I can well understand why they can't.

I am not (before anyone shouts me down) labelling every dominant man as a closet submissive but one hell of a lot are closet switches.

If any submissive female was to set up another profile on here as a Dominant woman then she would clearly see what I am talking about.

Edited to say, When I came back to these boards I did so as a switch and I would say that at least five out of every ten Dominant men (who only have Dominant in a profile) I talk to want to know how I would dominate them.

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 11/13/2008 10:41:40 AM >

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Post #: 39

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:25:23 AM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

We are both sadists, we are both edge players, we both have a dominance in us and we both have to fight with each other, overpower each other and eventually..of a kind.. submit to each other.
Neither of us ever discuss who is going to take a role. Both of us continually plan how to get the better in a dominant sense. It just evolves and its incredibly exciting.

It seems like people keep using "dominate" and "submit" (and forms thereof) interchangeably with what I consider to be "topping" and "bottoming". I can top someone from now until next Tuesday, but I can never be dominant or dominate someone. Topping and bottoming is what I do (a "role" if you will)... a submissive woman is who I *AM*.

Cali

Sorry if I gave that impression. I am Dominant, he is Dominant. We both share a female submissive who we both Dominate her hard.
I am very verbal, I demand, I order, I show little tolerance and he is the same when we move into a Dominant role. This is not just about hurting each other, this is about reversed power roles. Are you saying that to be Dominant it has to be consistent all the time because I'm afraid I strongly disagree with that.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 40

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