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RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:28:16 AM

RCdc

Posts: 8674
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

We are both sadists, we are both edge players, we both have a dominance in us and we both have to fight with each other, overpower each other and eventually..of a kind.. submit to each other.
Neither of us ever discuss who is going to take a role. Both of us continually plan how to get the better in a dominant sense. It just evolves and its incredibly exciting.

It seems like people keep using "dominate" and "submit" (and forms thereof) interchangeably with what I consider to be "topping" and "bottoming". I can top someone from now until next Tuesday, but I can never be dominant or dominate someone. Topping and bottoming is what I do (a "role" if you will)... a submissive woman is who I *AM*.

Cali

I completely agree with Cali on this one. Scening and BDSM sessions do not constitute submission, that would be topping and bottoming. Being dominant and having someone do something to you because you want it, is dominating the session and topping. It's all cool, but it isn't switching. I couldn't swtich for the life of me, like Cali, s-type is what I am. What I do is completely different.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 41

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:35:09 AM

mistoferin

Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I am not (before anyone shouts me down) labelling every dominant man as a closet submissive but one hell of a lot are closet switches.

Just as there are one hell of a lot of dominant women who are. They could both probably up the odds of happiness a whole bunch if they could just be that honest.

But then there are also people who don't have any switch qualities whatsoever. Just because they don't doesn't mean they are prejudiced....it doesn't mean they are simply not open minded enough...and it doesn't mean that they just haven't thought it out far enough. It also doesn't mean that they look down on switches....it simply means that they are likely not compatible with them.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 42

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:37:00 AM

CallaFirestormBW

Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

It seems like people keep using "dominate" and "submit" (and forms thereof) interchangeably with what I consider to be "topping" and "bottoming". I can top someone from now until next Tuesday, but I can never be dominant or dominate someone. Topping and bottoming is what I do (a "role" if you will)... a submissive woman is who I *AM*.

Cali

I guess I should be clear in saying that, for me, I can flip topping/bottoming pretty easily. I enjoy being on the receiving end of piercings, cuttings, and tattooing in a T/b environment, and yes, I do consider those activities T/b for me, regardless... probably because I also consider them, for me, acts that pull my physical self and my intellectual/emotional/integral self into this process of yielding to the experience. The difference between t/b and d/s for me is exactly that -- with d/s, an individual submits to me, or I yield to hir, and the experience is less relevant than the interpersonal relationship... with t/b, I submit to the -experience-, whether or not it requires another person to provide the stimulus. The person isn't my focus when either giving or receiving... the experience and expression of the experience itself are the focus of both parties, and, in a way, we're -both- yielding to that experience regardless of which side of, say, the scalpel, we are on.

The decisions I make with my Darling, though -- that's something different. Perhaps some of it is residual to my previous existence in the House while in training, because it isn't something that is expressed in my nature often... but with her, I think first about how strongly I feel about something that we're at odds with, and then I think about what's going to generate the most peace in the house, and sometimes, I literally yield... in the same manner and using essentially the same decision process that enabled me to spend 4 years in service/training. It's always a conscious choice, but I suspect that, even for the most submissive person, it is -still- always a conscious choice... it's just more transparent for those who yield more easily. For me, it's never been transparent, so I've always sort of recognized those times when I've capitulated as a conscious decision to help keep our home healthy. Is it 'submitting' to my Darling? Well, if it isn't then the years I spent in training weren't submission either, and all the folks who get on my case about how I can be a d-type and still have submitted can go suck eggs. *LOL* If it is, and I suspect that it is, I figure that, situationally, my relationship and my love for this person is stronger than my need to dominate all the time... and to me, if it means a healthier home, that's all to the good. (Hence my tendency to think of this as 'dominant-flexible'.) Oh... and BTW, despite the fact that my Darling is actually even more strongly bossy than I am, and more inclined to be cranky about getting her own way, she will also, on occasion, yield to my more infinite wisdom on a topic (with the same good graces, or lack thereof, that I am certain that I display. *chuckles*)

People are too complex to fit into convenient boxes. I would hazard that, regardless of how people prefer to see simple, repeating patterns, we are, in the end, more flexible than we might even like to admit to ourselves.

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 11/13/2008 10:41:38 AM >

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Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

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(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 43

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 10:57:04 AM

allthatjaz

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I wanted to say what you said Calla but you said it all so much better.... thank you

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 44

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 11:00:38 AM

allthatjaz

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Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
I am not (before anyone shouts me down) labelling every dominant man as a closet submissive but one hell of a lot are closet switches.

Just as there are one hell of a lot of dominant women who are. They could both probably up the odds of happiness a whole bunch if they could just be that honest.

But then there are also people who don't have any switch qualities whatsoever. Just because they don't doesn't mean they are prejudiced....it doesn't mean they are simply not open minded enough...and it doesn't mean that they just haven't thought it out far enough. It also doesn't mean that they look down on switches....it simply means that they are likely not compatible with them.

I agree mistoferin. I can totally understand why a full on submissive or a full on Dominant would not want to go down a switch route and I don't believe, for the most, that is a prejudice but more of a choice.

Whilst you are happy to celebrate who you are and be respected for that, so am I happy to celebrate the new found me and to be honest I havent really bumped into anyone who has looked down on what I do or perhaps I just don't notice !

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 45

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 11:08:41 AM

LadyConstanze

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Joined: 2/18/2005
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Because I don't switch doesn't mean that I should look down on somebody who does, it wouldn't really bother me if somebody I dominate would in turn dominate somebody else, as long as he doesn't try to dominate me, everything is fine and to each their own.

_____________________________

There are 10 kinds of people who understand binary
Those who do and those who don't!

http://exdomme.blogspot.com/2012/07/public-service-announcement.html

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 46

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 11:29:45 AM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
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Jaz, I was just using what you said as an example. And in your response, you said, "when we move into the dominant role..." (emphasis added)

What I was trying to say is that for me, that is not a role. Just as being bisexual is not a role for me. It is who I am. What I choose to do (topping or bottoming) is a role. I cannot be with someone who is really a switch in their orientation. It looked like what I was seeing in some responses discussing switching was really about activities (topping and bottoming) and not about who they ARE.

Clear as mud, I'm sure.

Cali

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 47

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 11:40:44 AM

ResidentSadist

Posts: 12580
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From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

There are all sorts of folks with different views on BDSM, which is both fair and expected. But when a reality (people who switch) conflict with their theory, one would naturally have to consider modifying the theory.

Having said that, the issue of a partner that switches is often one of personal preference. I have seen many folks who cannot accept a partner with conservative politics, which is another legitimate personal preference. Just knowing that someone thinks differently on issues is enough to preclude any sense of attraction. Similarly, for many submissives (in particular), just knowing that their Dominant submits (or has submitted, or will submit) to another is enough to ruin any sense of power exchange that might otherwise exist.

You might as well complain about why they don't like asparagus or something like that (vile weed that it is). Bottom line is that it's really not consistent to ask people to accept your personal preference, while complaining about theirs.

John

/wanders out back door, grabs a tree limb, makes a “switch” and studies it carefully while pondering all the philosphical implications of an ex-slave that was a switch before responding (no she didn't switch with me).

I like asparagus . . . I think that sums it up.

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I give good thread.

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 48

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 12:11:24 PM

FlamingRedhead

Posts: 451
Joined: 3/4/2007
From: Georgia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

/wanders out back door, grabs a tree limb, makes a “switch” and studies it carefully while pondering all the philosphical implications of an ex-slave that was a switch before responding (no she didn't switch with me).

I like asparagus . . . I think that sums it up.

*studies RA's newly made switch carefully and ponders all the physical implications*

I like asparagus, too, but it has to be fresh, not canned! LMAO

_____________________________

I'm so addicted to
All the things you do
When you're going down on me
In between the sheets
Or the sound you make
With every breath you take
It's unlike anything
When you're loving me

(in reply to ResidentSadist)

Post #: 49

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 1:15:12 PM

allthatjaz

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Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Jaz, I was just using what you said as an example. And in your response, you said, "when we move into the dominant role..." (emphasis added)

What I was trying to say is that for me, that is not a role. Just as being bisexual is not a role for me. It is who I am. What I choose to do (topping or bottoming) is a role. I cannot be with someone who is really a switch in their orientation. It looked like what I was seeing in some responses discussing switching was really about activities (topping and bottoming) and not about who they ARE.

Clear as mud, I'm sure.

Cali

So are you saying that your submission is real and mine is not? that Im just playing at it?

The dynamics of our relationship are many things including fear. Yes, when I submit its real and its though consensual fear because thats what I need to go to that place, so I guess that doesn't make me a willing submissive, or does it? What it does make it is as real as it could possibly ever get before it becomes abuse but thats how I like it and so in fact its very deep, sometimes risky and often dangerous. In my submission I breath when he allows me to breath, I live if he wants me to live or at least that is where my head goes. I am totally at his mercy.
Just because I don't do the man worship without force does not make me any less submissive when I am at my point of submission. Just because I am not in that head space all the time doesn't mean when I am in it its any less false than yours.

I am a dominant sadist and when I really feel that I can take someone with force (consensual force) then Im at my best. My sadism wants this to feel like a fight that I won. I want to humble and I want to do it roughly but I want his submission at the end of it. Being switch makes me no less dominant and no less submissive.

Just a greedy bitch

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 50

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 1:44:28 PM

CalifChick

Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline

Jaz, I wasn't attacking you, I was just trying to say that just because someone bottoms doesn't mean they are submissive; just because someone tops doesn't mean they're dominant... yet I see responses that seem to say that. I was pointing out that they are very different things to ME, and to a number of other people.

I cannot be with someone whose orientation is switch; but I can be with someone whose activities switch.

Edited to add: Just because I don't understand how someone can have both orientations doesn't mean it isn't real to them. It just means I can't grok it. No harm, no foul.

Cali

< Message edited by CalifChick -- 11/13/2008 1:45:56 PM >

_____________________________

AKA "The Undisputed Goddess of Sarcasm", "Big Bad Cali" and "Yum Bum". Advisor to the Subbie Mafia, founding member of the W.A.C. and the Judgmental Bitches Brigade, member of the Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair-a's and Team Troll

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 51

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 3:14:51 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

If you act like a dom, I will naturally become submissive to you.
If you act like a sub, I will naturally become dominate to you.
And if you do switch, I will switch as well.

Which means what exactly? I am who I am all the time. Heck I've even been in a scene with both a dom and a sub (not too uncommon in male dom with a fem sub and another fem sub who subs to the first fem situations).

The thing is, there's a lot of ignorance going around. It's actually fairly rare for a switch to switch WITHIN a single relationship. Almost always a switch will be "the dom" with someone and "the sub" with someone else. They don't suddenly switch gears with that one person.

The other side is the assumption that subs and doms will ALWAYS stay in that orientation forever just because they don't identify as a switch. The reality is that doms and subs turn vanilla, leave the lifestyle, decide to "explore the other" side ALL THE TIME.

It's just conveniently ignored because it messes up people's neat boxes of what "dom" and "sub" are.

So essentially, switches are no less stable, no more or less likely to be able to maintain a solid long term relationship as ONE orientation as anyone else is.

However, I did write a semi-relevant article on the treatment and non-relevance of switches in the scene recently and plan to write another semi-definitive definitions and labels here soon: http://www.thedomsview.com/Vol9/Q3/switch.htm

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

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Post #: 52

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 5:44:55 PM

RainydayNE

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Joined: 10/21/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

I can be with someone who bottoms; I cannot be with someone who submits. Why can't my preference be respected without words like "prejudice" or "fear" being thrown about?

Cali

there are alot of "argument tactics" going on, like this one, using negative words to make you feel less secure with your position, using phrases like "we're complex" with the implied "therefore you're not" blah blah blah =p

people like what they like, period. and sure, yeah, some people just don't like switches. alot of tall chicks won't even think about dating a short guy. it is what it is =p like colouredin said, liking two things doenst make you complex, it just means you like two things. everyone's personality is complex. =p and this --

quote:

ORIGINALl: littlewonder

Some of us want a man who is a dominant personality. He doesn't take on a role..it just is his personality. He is a leader, a take charge sorta guy in and out of the bedroom. It just is who he is.

-- is also another good point. some people aren't necessarily in it for "roles."
it's just personal preference that people have.
i mean, i have a tendency to be deathly attracted to longhaired, blue-eyed guys of the caucasian sort =p however, it's understood and accepted that not all of them are going to like me back =p and i don't judge them for that and make a thread about it.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 53

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 9:48:44 PM

stingerd86

Posts: 10
Joined: 6/18/2008
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You know It doesnt bother me so much if someone finds me incompatible as a playmate or partner because i'm capable of being either role. If it wigs a potential Domme out that I have been dominant in a relationship with someone else thats their choice, or the same for a potential sub. I mean sure I think they are missing out because I'm a great guy, and a heck of a lot of fun, wether on top or the bottom, but it's their choice. It only really bothers me if someone thinks less of me because I don't fit into their neat little labeled box.

I suppose I wasnt super clear in my original post what i find prejudicial. Being told i don't exist as i define myself because i dont fit into a specific slot predefined for me I find prejudicial. Being considered unreliable in a bdsm relationship because it's assumed i won't be satisfied being just submissive to a Dominant partner, or just Dominant to a subissive partner, I also find hurtful. The latter of course seems to draw a lot of comparison to prejudice against those who are bisexual for much the same sort of illogical reasoning.
I suppose what i'm getting at is every person is different. Though I went on a big soapbox style ramble about all the misunderstandings I find being a switch, I am really glad to inspire some level of consideration on the subject. Some of you have given me real hope that the next time I meet a new friend in the bdsm community that I will be judged on my individual merits, and not on the stereotypes given to switches as a whole.

(in reply to RainydayNE)

Post #: 54

RE: switched prejudice - 11/13/2008 11:40:52 PM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

Jaz, I wasn't attacking you, I was just trying to say that just because someone bottoms doesn't mean they are submissive; just because someone tops doesn't mean they're dominant... yet I see responses that seem to say that. I was pointing out that they are very different things to ME, and to a number of other people.

I cannot be with someone whose orientation is switch; but I can be with someone whose activities switch.

Edited to add: Just because I don't understand how someone can have both orientations doesn't mean it isn't real to them. It just means I can't grok it. No harm, no foul.

Cali

Grrr I hate the written word because it can be so misread, so misunderstood. Calif I didn't think for a moment you were attacking me and I am sorry if my reply sounded defensive, that was not my intension.

I think that all that matters here is what is important to us as individuals. If it works for 'those people' then all is good.

(in reply to CalifChick)

Post #: 55

RE: switched prejudice - 11/14/2008 4:32:12 AM

JustStephen

Posts: 61
Joined: 4/15/2008
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Submission is something that is given, not taken. A person giving their submission to another is still in control. Any person receiving that gift must know it can be taken away just as easily. If you have ever "lost someones head" then you will know what it is like to have that submission taken away.

Switching is knowing how to give and take, In my situation I only give my submission to one person and she is only able to submit to me but both of us will enthusiastically dominate many, it is our natural tendency.

Stephen

< Message edited by JustStephen -- 11/14/2008 4:43:12 AM >

(in reply to allthatjaz)

Post #: 56

RE: switched prejudice - 11/14/2008 5:08:51 AM

Rover

Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JustStephen

A person giving their submission to another is still in control.

In control of what, exactly? Not sure I understand this statement, nor agree. But if you can provide some context I'd know for sure.

quote:

Any person receiving that gift must know it can be taken away just as easily.

You might find that "submission as a gift" makes more than a few folks around here want to hurl (me being one of them). There are plenty of reasons the analogy doesn't work (unlike a gift, submission is given with the expectation of something in return... as you noted, submission can be retracted whereas a gift cannot... etc.). And although it's a minor issue, folks can become rather entrenched in their opinions.

quote:

If you have ever "lost someones head" then you will know what it is like to have that submission taken away.

I have no idea what this means.

John

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(in reply to JustStephen)

Post #: 57

RE: switched prejudice - 11/14/2008 6:48:40 AM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover

I have no idea what this means.

John

I think what Stephen is trying to say is this;

You can only dominate whilst the submissive wishes to be dominated. You may be able to dominate her for a time but eventually she may wake up one morning and go 'ya know what? I just don't feel submissive to you anymore'.
Of course you could also wake up one morning thinking you don't want to dominate her anymore.

Once you have lost her head then you have lost her submission and visa versa

< Message edited by allthatjaz -- 11/14/2008 7:07:48 AM >

(in reply to Rover)

Post #: 58

RE: switched prejudice - 11/14/2008 7:55:29 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

OP
You say you have remained a sub in a long term relationship. Judging by your picture, I wonder how you define long term.

For those of us who are monogamous and seek long term relationships, we're defining long term as twenty or more years.

Could you be content knowing you would never get to satisfy the other side of your urges for the rest of your life?

This topic has come up for discussion before and I've never known a switch say "Yes, I will be fine never topping anyone (or being topped) forevermore". A few years, yes but not long term as I define it.

_____________________________

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Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 59

RE: switched prejudice - 11/14/2008 9:13:38 AM

SthrnCom4t

Posts: 343
Joined: 9/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: VampiresLair

quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick
I do not like switches not because they might not be compatible but because I cannot fulfill all their needs. I can not have a submissive of mine who dominates someone else, the situation makes me uncomfortable.
<clip>
I do not care for dominant men, either. Does that make me prejudiced as well?

DV

DV :) Perhaps its a bit of semantics? Do you not *like* them, or are your desires and needs simply "not compatibile' in the context of an intimate relationship?

I sense you are self-aware enough to know what works for you, but others might not be. Give them the benefit of the doubt, consider how you communicate what characteristics are compatible with yours, and that may lessen the amount of defensiveness you encounter.

Just my two cents,
Sthrn

(in reply to VampiresLair)

Post #: 60

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