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RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 7:53:51 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

For Lying His Ass Off About 'Weapons Of Mass Destruction' in Irag.

Isn't this a War Crime?

No

Yes, it is a war crime. Any military violation of a nation's sovreignity is a war crime that's in the UN charter, a binding treaty the US is a signatory to.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 8:01:13 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper


For Lying His Ass Off About 'Weapons Of Mass Destruction' in Irag.
 
Isn't this a War Crime?
 

It would be decidedly difficult to prove what, exactly, he knew or didn't know for sure.  The chances of any prosecution for that one are nil, as the precident it would set is one with woeful long term consequences for all future administrations, and the nation in general.  I'm somewhat bummed about that, but at least can see the long term.
 
quote:

For F**king Up the Economy.

 
Isn't this Treason?
 

Not necessarily treason - more like several poor circumstances meeting a bunch of poor judgement, over 12 yrs or so.  And if you are going to prosecute Bush for the current economy, you'd also need to bring charges against Clinton over such things as NAFTA and the deregulation of the banking industry.  Congress holds much of the responsiblity as well.

quote:

Do you think George will commit more crimes between now and Jan. 21st, 2009?  Personally, I'm waiting for him to abuse his Executive Pardon Powers for his friends. 

 
The man seems positively dumber than a box of rocks.
 
Any thoughts, folks?
 

Name me one president in the last 50 yrs who hasn't "abused his Executive Pardon Powers for his friends".  This is nothing new.  Rather an abomination, yes, but not new, and not surprising when it happens.
 
Grace
 



Hey Grace, we have Bush on tape sounding the alarm that Saddam has weapons of Mass Destruction.  (Funny how a country can go from an ally to a foe in 15 minutes, ain't it?)
 
I have no problem prosecuting Clinton as well.  But as a rule, these things make more sense if done sequentially.
 
What happened to Saddam?  Didn't we execute him? He certainly would have testified against Bush.
 
As for POTUS's I admire, well I thought Kennedy did a good job, apart from naming Johnson as his running mate.  If he had lived out his term, who knows?  At least the women who snuck in the back door of the White House to smoke the sheets with Kennedy actually lusted after him.
 
You might find that objectionable anyway -- and I'm not sure I'd disagree -- but that's a far cry from agressing against some college co-ed in the Oval Office, or having some secretary
picked by the State Troopers and 'delivered' to you as you sit in the Govenor's Office.  I can't see where Monica Lewinski or Gennifer Flowers had any choice.
 
And yanno what they say about nonconsensual acts around here.
candystripper   
 
 
 

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 8:04:33 AM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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This is all beside the point because you can't convict a minor.

_____________________________

Memory Lane...been there done that.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 8:07:37 AM   
candystripper


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Messing up the economy is not a crime.

The biggest crimes are starting the war in Iraq and authorizing torture. He could be prosecuted under existing US law on both. However he is going to pardon everyone who could possibly testify against him so there won't be anyone who will testify against him rather than face jail time.

He will be indicted by one or more foreign national and international courts. If any have an extradition treaty with the US they could try and have the warrant executed by our government but its pretty unlikely. Likely Bush ands his cronies will simply be unable to leave the US for fear of arrest.


POTUS owes the nation a fiduciary duty, DomKen.  Bush has violated it.  Those guys at the Federal Reserve, Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, etc. would have had to step down in favor of qualified folks, had Bush acted properly and fulfiled his fiduciary duties.
 
Even now, the bail-out none of us wanted is being mis-managed.  What's wrong with Bush?  Does he need a demo on 'how to fire an incompetent employee'?
 
Management for Dummies, perhaps?
 
candystripper 
 

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 8:32:25 AM   
xBullx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

For Lying His Ass Off About 'Weapons Of Mass Destruction' in Irag.

Isn't this a War Crime?

No

Yes, it is a war crime. Any military violation of a nation's sovreignity is a war crime that's in the UN charter, a binding treaty the US is a signatory to.


I do believe the WMD angle was the direction they took to win popular support with the masses, it was the excuse for the populace, but I suspect they had their "legal" bases covered by UN resolutions well enough.. It seems the UN wouldn't be able to disagree that Sadam had committed multiple offenses worthy of taking action against him. From human rights violations to violations against the UN procolmations and sanctions. In fact, Sadam was the one that demonstrated the inept might of the UN itself. They (the UN) are little more than an economic drain on our (the US) budget. They bark alot and their bite is non-existant. I suspect we could argue this until the cows come home, but the fact is there are often few innocent parties in world politics. Just a couple western examples would be where FDR lied by omission, he and Sir Winston did a great deal of underhanded play to get the US envolved in the war. Hell Washington himself might have been impeachable; having secret meetings with the British.

Conquest and self presevation, not to mention revenge are all part of the human condition. You can't rule away what you are, you can only deter others from excersizing their own nature against you. Bush was defending the United Staes of America, we're the dumb fuckers that hired him, perhaps we are all responsible and should be brought up on charges. Scape goats are also part of the human way. I'd like to see everyone held accountable for actions they are a party to, not just the easy targets. Damn that Barbara Bush for giving birth to such an evil bastard.

< Message edited by xBullx -- 11/15/2008 8:39:19 AM >


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 10:49:50 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

For Lying His Ass Off About 'Weapons Of Mass Destruction' in Irag.

Isn't this a War Crime?

No

Yes, it is a war crime. Any military violation of a nation's sovreignity is a war crime that's in the UN charter, a binding treaty the US is a signatory to.


I do believe the WMD angle was the direction they took to win popular support with the masses, it was the excuse for the populace, but I suspect they had their "legal" bases covered by UN resolutions well enough.. It seems the UN wouldn't be able to disagree that Sadam had committed multiple offenses worthy of taking action against him. From human rights violations to violations against the UN procolmations and sanctions. In fact, Sadam was the one that demonstrated the inept might of the UN itself. They (the UN) are little more than an economic drain on our (the US) budget. They bark alot and their bite is non-existant. I suspect we could argue this until the cows come home, but the fact is there are often few innocent parties in world politics. Just a couple western examples would be where FDR lied by omission, he and Sir Winston did a great deal of underhanded play to get the US envolved in the war. Hell Washington himself might have been impeachable; having secret meetings with the British.

Conquest and self presevation, not to mention revenge are all part of the human condition. You can't rule away what you are, you can only deter others from excersizing their own nature against you. Bush was defending the United Staes of America, we're the dumb fuckers that hired him, perhaps we are all responsible and should be brought up on charges. Scape goats are also part of the human way. I'd like to see everyone held accountable for actions they are a party to, not just the easy targets. Damn that Barbara Bush for giving birth to such an evil bastard.


The UN was quite adament in saying the invasion of Iraq was illeagal and against the UN charter. Britain's chief law officer apparently came to the same conclusion but under heavy political pressure changed his opinion which protected Blair and his arse licking cronies from the danger of being charged under British law. So Blair not only took Britain into an illegal war but corrupted the British legal system to boot!

Not that I have ever had any real faith in it.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 11:07:38 AM   
RacerJim


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Bush haters!

This past July the U.S. military finished tranfersing 550 METRIC TONS of YELLOWCAKE from Iraq to Canada.  Yellowcake has two possible end-uses...nuclear-powered electric generating plants and nuclear weapons.  Iraq had none of and no plans to build any of the former.

Declare NObama ineligible to be POTUS.  He refuses to prove he is a natural born U.S. Citizen and wouldn't pass an FBI security clearance background investigation.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 11:09:40 AM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
I hate to burst your bubble, but I really doubt anything will happen to the man. He will leave office and go off and enjoy his life and retirement.


I don't know about that.  I don't think that he'll be prosecuted or locked up or anything, but I suspect that it will be quite a while before he's able to go off and enjoy life.  He's going to be fighting over the release of documents stuff for a long time.  I imagine his attorneys will be doing most of that, but depending on what gets released, it could be a rather unpleasant retirement.

I hope that this is all done rationally.  I don't think there's anything to be gained by trying to "get" GWB.  Unless something surfaces that's so outrageous that there's no way to let it go, I think it's in all of our best interest to avoid any filing of charges.  That would just prolong the polarization, and we don't need that.  I'd be really surprised to see any Democratic-backed moves in this direction.  

Having said that, I think that it's really important to sort out the whole executive priviledge thing and start defining some limits around it.  What do We-The-People have a right to know about, and what should our elected officials be able to keep secret?  I think that most folks would agree that the Bush administration went over the line when it came to keeping secrets, but where is the line?

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 11:10:16 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

Bush haters!

This past July the U.S. military finished tranfersing 550 METRIC TONS of YELLOWCAKE from Iraq to Canada.  Yellowcake has two possible end-uses...nuclear-powered electric generating plants and nuclear weapons.  Iraq had none of and no plans to build any of the former.

Wrong. You were taken in by an email hoax.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/yellowcake.asp

quote:

Declare NObama ineligible to be POTUS.  He refuses to prove he is a natural born U.S. Citizen and wouldn't pass an FBI security clearance background investigation.

disproven lie as well.

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 11:22:20 AM   
xBullx


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Well like I said, the UN has demonstrated it's "superb" command of it's own principles and I rather doubt it would have been viewed illegal had Russia and France not had their entire upper torso stuck in the cookie jar.

The UN is the world's greatest example of puppetry and corruption.

I have limited knowledge of British legality, but I doubt it's limits were bent all that much beyond what is excercised on a daily basis. Surely the United Kingdom is also consumed with it's spending ear marks and such.



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 11:54:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Well like I said, the UN has demonstrated it's "superb" command of it's own principles and I rather doubt it would have been viewed illegal had Russia and France not had their entire upper torso stuck in the cookie jar.

The UN is the world's greatest example of puppetry and corruption.

I have limited knowledge of British legality, but I doubt it's limits were bent all that much beyond what is excercised on a daily basis. Surely the United Kingdom is also consumed with it's spending ear marks and such.




Why do you use accusations against Russia and France to justify the USA's breaking of the UN charter?

The fact that France and Russia might be trading to countries the USA doesn't like is irrelvent to the case in hand. The USA trades with countries Russian would like it to trade with.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 12:02:30 PM   
MmeGigs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
Declare NObama ineligible to be POTUS.  He refuses to prove he is a natural born U.S. Citizen and wouldn't pass an FBI security clearance background investigation.


C'mon now.  This kind of thing doesn't add anything to the discussion. 

I'm editing to add the following.

I took out some unkind words.  I don't mean to pick on you, RacerJim, but this kind of thing from either side really has to stop.  We're all in this together, and while there's a lot of value in being skeptical and holding people accountable, we really have to give up the cynicism and accept that people who disagree with us aren't stupid and/or evil. 

< Message edited by MmeGigs -- 11/15/2008 12:15:31 PM >

(in reply to RacerJim)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 12:50:04 PM   
awmslave


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The crash of economy is the result of more than 20 years so called neoliberal economic policies; it is hard to tell who is more or less guilty. W. Clinton administration perhaps did put stronger foundation to failing direction. Bush's guilt is more for inactivity to turn the tide. It is hard to find basis for coviction on economic policies. Regarding Iraq war: there is a case, people spend energy, but the result is rather small mostly keeping the topic floating around. Wasn't it all for Iraq freedom after all?

(in reply to candystripper)
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RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 12:53:54 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The crash of economy is the result of more than 20 years so called neoliberal economic policies


Where do you get this shit, especially given that except for Clinton (six of which years were under a Republican Congress), we've been under Republican control since 1980?


(in reply to awmslave)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 12:55:25 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim
Declare NObama ineligible to be POTUS.  He refuses to prove he is a natural born U.S. Citizen and wouldn't pass an FBI security clearance background investigation.


Actually, he already has.

Sorry Jim. But then, reality has a well-known liberal bias.

(in reply to MmeGigs)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 1:15:47 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MmeGigs
  We're all in this together, and while there's a lot of value in being skeptical and holding people accountable, we really have to give up the cynicism and accept that people who disagree with us aren't stupid and/or evil. 


Amen.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 1:43:38 PM   
UncleNasty


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quote:

ORIGINAL: candystripper

Huh? So we've repealed portions of the Constiution ya think?
 
BTW, Clinton should have been impeached.  I believe he got away with murder in the White Water Scandal.  And it wasn't just Monica Lewinski -- who was what?  21?  -- it was also Gennifer Flowers, who was picked up by AK state troopers and brought to see Clinton when he was sitting as govenor because he desired her.
 
If Clinton had had a patriotic bone in his body, he would have resigned and spared the nation the creepiness.  I can still hear it:
 
'I did not have sex with that woman.  I did not have sexal relations with Monica Lewinski."
 
and who can forget:
 
'it depends on what 'is' 'means'.
 
Ugh.  Gag me.
 
candystripper 

 
The man's a liar and a sexual predator.
 
And his freaking wife is just as sleasy.  Has no one noticed she's lezzie?  No wonder she doesn't care who her husband f**ks -- only none of my lezzie girlfriends would allow such a sleasebag in their lives in any capacity.
 
O, I just can't stand either one of them.  It's like Nixon -- if Nixon had been able to get it up.  Gawd forbid Obama would pardon Bush.  I say send him to the federal pen, or wherever war criminals go.
 
I didn't need to 'heal' when Ford pardoned Nixon -- I needed justice.  That's exactly what I need now as well.

candystripper 


Impeachment was taken off the table by the Dems in 06. I knew what it meant. They simply refused to do the job they are/were elected to do. We can see they haven't done their jobs so far, and likely won't. Ever. Neither Bush nor Cheney will be impeached.

Being brought up on charges after they have left office is also very unlikely. I doubt the citizens will have the motivation to focus on the past while everything is crumbling around them in the present.

Doubtful also that anything will happen in regard to international bodies, organizations or law. Aren't we the biggest cock on the block (so to speak)? So who could effect a seriour effort to make that happen. We simply have too many guns.

I do believe he has committed acts which are both impeachable and prosecutable. I just don't see it happening.

As an attorney candy you know the importance of the legal definition and meanings of words. Clinton most certainly had some slimy elements, so this isn't intended as an overall defense of him or his character. But it seems from a most literal legal interpretation his question was legitimate. A bit of a stretch? Yes. But not completely out of bounds.

Many laws are written with a glossary, or dictionary, or definitions. Take the Uniform Commercial Code, or Kentuckys version of such, which is in KRS 355. Their are sections that are devoted to defining terms used throughout the various chapters, and with specificity. Sometimes words in common usage are defined quite differently in their overall legal meaning, or even as they apply to only one section of code, or law.

I have seen the term "firearm" used in one law, or statute. On its face one usually assumes the term to mean any sort of firearm. Looking in the definitions as they pertain to that law specifically the term "firearm" has been defined as only a shotgun. That excludes pistols, revolvers, rifles, bazookas,  surface to air missiles, etc.

So asking what the definition of "is" is does have some merit. Clinton was an attorney. He knew what he was doing when he pushed the boundaries. And yeah it was slimy.

After your suggestion that we try approaching your assisting me with my legal issues with a fresh or new start I attempted to respond via email. I note that your profile is no longer available to receive emails.

If you're still interested in that it appears you'll need to provide me with another means of contacting you.

Uncle Nasty

(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 1:47:58 PM   
DomKen


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Let's be clear on some things. Impeaching Bush and Cheney would have never resulted in a conviction and removal since that requires a 2/3 vote of the Senate. Can anyone honestly claim that any amount of evidence would have resulted in 67 yes votes in the present senate?

So an impeachment serves only to play partisan politics and appear to be getting back for the impeachment of Clinton. Fundamentally a criminal indictment or war crimes tribunal indictment is far more damning than an impeachment.

(in reply to UncleNasty)
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RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 2:04:25 PM   
awmslave


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quote:

Where do you get this shit, especially given that except for Clinton (six of which years were under a Republican Congress), we've been under Republican control since 1980?
I was referring to the neoliberal economic model of the so-called “Chicago Boys” under the leadership of Milton Friedman.
Bill Clinton was almost perfect Wall Street - Coropate president: champion of so called "free trade", outsourcing and "bubble economy". Two ruling parties differ only by rhetoric as economy is concerned. Otherwise, this is the area where they work nicely together: lobbyists do not discriminate.


(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Convicting Georage W. Bush - 11/15/2008 2:09:51 PM   
Crush


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Can you self-pardon as the President?

Get out of jail free card, so to speak.



(in reply to candystripper)
Profile   Post #: 40
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