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RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:36:48 AM

fastlane

Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
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I am of the sentiment that "Blood, Sweat and Tears", expressed so well in one of their songs.

"I swear there ain't no Heaven, but I pray there ain't no Hell,
but I'll never know by living, only my dyin will tell!"

Peace, Kevin

_____________________________

Just because it hurts, doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 21

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:44:47 AM

veronicaofML

Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline

yes...BS & T ARE good..i give ya THAT.

i prefer to walk on the wild side........

they ain't no god this side of the mason dixon and this place between the 'sippi and the rockies

bwaaaa haaaaaaa

(besides,...i married the 3 daughters of the devil himself...he ain't got nuthin compared to THEM)

_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"

(in reply to fastlane)

Post #: 22

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:48:07 AM

Misstoyou

Posts: 1149
Joined: 9/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet
To be a god, you must have those to worship you.

Well, we might like to think so (it's in many creation myths) because it gives us as a species both purpose and job security, lol, but actually, I agree with Veronica. I teach about all of them in the present tense.

_____________________________

~ Miss Marie

a.k.a. "mean Lady"

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 23

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 2:27:53 PM

anthrosub

Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

IMHO, man has the ability to reason, decide, determine--the ability to choose how to live his life (and I use his here as generic humanity)--spirituality lives within all men--for it is there--at that core that a belief exists--a belief that should drive behavior--we use "god" as the big stick when it is within all of us to choose--

here in the US--we have become an arrogant group of people with talk of "god"--we assume all the world is Christian and they are not---Merry Christmas versus Happy Holidays--when the US is such a melting pot of cultures--we still try to force a single concept--we assume because a group believes in Buddha they are misguided--how the hell do we know they don't know better than we do??--or those that seek their spiritual support from gods and goddesses, they will be damned to hell---<smiles>--

we spend so much time pointing our fingers outward to keep from pointing them inward--

if you look inward, the laws that should guide you reside there--it matters not what it is called--it is the timless law of humanity, many follow, many don't and the existence of god or not, have not changed the choices one bit--

IMHO and I will now count to ten, waiting to be flamed or Mod removed, I'm sure--

What you've stated is basically my position as well although for myself, I would insert "attitude" in place of "belief" in the first paragraph. As to the tendency for the "United States" to advocate a single culture when in fact it's a melting pot, the term for this is "ethnocentrism." I would also like to take this opportunity to expand on your statement about pointing "inwards" instead of outwards regarding religion...particularly western religions.

If you research the debates on religion and its value, eventually you will come across the idea that religion "gets in the way" of spirituality. This is close to the "worship of idols" taboo. People can get so caught up in the ritual and rules of a particular religion, they start missing the point and lose the connection with their spiritual side. I think the Catholic church is in this state right now. Has anyone seen the throne the Pope sits on in the Vatican? It's pretty over the top considering Christianity's origins.

Also, I usually point this out whenever I see the statement about believing in Buddha. Strictly speaking, people don't "believe" in the Buddha, they follow his teachings. The East is more about philosophies (ways of living) than religion (worshipping a God or Gods). There are deity based religions there but in China, Korea, and Japan its more of the philosophical flavor. I include this not so much as a correction but as a piece of information for those interested in knowing.

_____________________________

"It is easier to fool people than it is to convince them they have been fooled." - Mark Twain

"I am not young enough to know everything." - Oscar Wilde

(in reply to MHOO314)

Post #: 24

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 4:45:41 PM

MadameDahlia

Posts: 2021
Joined: 8/11/2004
From: SoCal aka Hell
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

After all, why would someone powerful enough to create the universe really worry that he wasn't being honoured properly... and go to the trouble to punish those who fail to do it with proper enthusiam?

I've wondered that myself a time or two.

At the conclusion of exploring four Jesus based religions and dabbling in Judaism I gave up on ever trying to fit this round peg into their square holes. (That almost sounds naughty!)

I'm exploring a few pagan beliefs as well as Buddhism.

While I find interesting things in all of the religions and teachings I've tried to understand... I don't find that any of them are a perfect fit.

Without tangible proof or verified fact I don't have an incentive or inclination to believe. I'm just that way when it comes to religion. But I've drawn a few conclusions about religion.

Man created god... or rather the gods... to explain things that they didn't have the science to understand. Things had to happen for a reason once evolved humans began to question their world and the things around them.

It was easier to accept the death of a loved one if they were going somewhere better. It was easier to understand lightning, rainfall and night and day if some higher being was making it happen. It was probably a comforting thought for most - to know that something or someone with so much power was keeping an eye out for them.

From Early Man all the way up to Modern Man - a decent percentage of people seem to still crave the security of the gods... or a god figure. The key ingredient to most gods is the feeling of security.

I'm going to botch this, so I won't even attempt a direct quote. But there is a saying that runs along the lines of... War makes believers out of everyone.

While it may not be an absolute, I bet a number of men and women open up a channel between them and a higher force (even if it's been quite a while since they last tried to speak with the god of their choice) while they're in the midst of chaos and combat. It's a secure feeling... knowing you're fighting the good fight for the "right" team. It's pleasant knowing that a big, bad, strong individual is keeping an extra careful eye on the rounds in your gun - the minefields in front of you.

- And before anyone steps in, I respect your right to believe whatever you want. Respect mine to disbelieve what I will.

_____________________________

Insanity -- a perfectly rational adjustment to an insane world.
--R. D. Laing

"Oh, but if I went 'round sayin' I was Emperor, just because some moistened bint lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away."

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 25

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 8:50:11 PM

sirtopumhat

Posts: 7
Joined: 12/20/2005
Status: offline

My belief comes down to this...
I believe that I don't know.
I know the question but not the answer.
I would like to believe that there is a higher power but what I would like has no bearing on reality.

(in reply to fastlane)

Post #: 26

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 9:06:11 PM

veronicaofML

Posts: 1317
Joined: 11/19/2005
From: from iowa..now in wisconsin
Status: offline

- And before anyone steps in, I respect your right to believe whatever you want. Respect mine to disbelieve what I will.
-----------

it's ok.

i am myself...a devout die hard card carrying atheist.

take care

_____________________________

drugs sex and rock n roll,...drugs are good and so is the rock n roll, sex is over rated"
=============
"go straight to hell, do not pass go and do not collect $200"

(in reply to MadameDahlia)

Post #: 27

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 9:15:38 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

The op is really pointless. It is quite irrelevant. It matters not WHAT you call Him. Call Him a God, call Him a deity. Call Him whatever you want. That does not change the fact that He exists or does not exist one bit. You are just playing with ridiculous semantics.

I would rather live as though there is a God, then live godlessly and die only to find out there was.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to veronicaofML)

Post #: 28

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 9:37:13 PM

michaelGA

Posts: 1194
Status: offline

what i find bizzare is that, after such tragedies as 911, the "believers" (for lack of a better, neutral term) come out of the woodwork and say that is was "God's will"

this does not set well with me. it leads into a contridiction of what is written in the "Bible" about "God" loving us and wants the best for us.

did those people really have to die, or has "God" just ran out of power? that has been my undying question for years. and nobody has the answer to that...nobody "can" answer that with complete certainty...IMHO.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 29

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 9:43:02 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA

what i find bizzare is that, after such tragedies as 911, the "believers" (for lack of a better, neutral term) come out of the woodwork and say that is was "God's will"

this does not set well with me. it leads into a contridiction of what is written in the "Bible" about "God" loving us and wants the best for us.

did those people really have to die, or has "God" just ran out of power? that has been my undying question for years. and nobody has the answer to that...nobody "can" answer that with complete certainty...IMHO.

That made My blood boil. Blaming something like that on God was just disgusting.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 30

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 9:46:26 PM

michaelGA

Posts: 1194
Status: offline

it is my opinion in this matter and believe me, i've heard others show the same reponse...yet they cannot answer the question either, just point fingers and tell me off in some form or fashion.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 31

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 10:22:20 PM

FangsNfeet

Posts: 3758
Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

did those people really have to die, or has "God" just ran out of power?

Did those people really have to die?

The answer is yes. Sooner or later all of us have to or will die. Death is a part of life. Weither by sickness, murder, accident,
coincidentaly being in the wrong place at the wrong time, or by simply being to old to live, death will come in one way or another.

Has God just ran out of power?

No. Because the power is our gift of free will. If we didn't have free will, then we wouldn't have the capacity to think and woship on our own. Without free will, we wouldn't be able to plan or randomly think to have actions. Without that power, we are nothing. Without that power, 911 would have never hapened.

Question answered

NEXT!

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Post #: 32

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 10:29:07 PM

michaelGA

Posts: 1194
Status: offline

not hardly

i still do not see that they had a choise of "free will" to die that day or that way...if "God" had really loved and cared for any of them and had the power to do something, they would not have died...some "miracle" would have taken place to save them

as you can see, the question cannot be answered...not by me nor anyone...

people can try to rationalize this on so many levels, yet the real answer does not exist.

everyone has their own beliefs...right or wrong...

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 33

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 10:32:23 PM

FangsNfeet

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Joined: 12/3/2004
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quote:

I would rather live as though there is a God, then live godlessly and die only to find out there was.

Why? Out of fear or just wanting to cover your arse? I choose to stand for what I belive in and am more than willing to pay the price to whatever end.

So what if there's a devine creator who wants to be treated as a god just because it created us. Big whopty doo if something created us. It dosen't mean we're it's little kids our entire life. Demanding, threatening, and intimidating me to worship you will not cause me to budge.

Acceptance of a greater force creating you is one thing, but worshiping it is another. Whatever caused our existence as we know it today is not a god to me and I refuse to worship it. After all, I don't remember asking to be here in the first place. If there is someone to answer to when I die, they better be ready to answer some questions back.

< Message edited by FangsNfeet -- 12/22/2005 10:33:31 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 10:36:45 PM

michaelGA

Posts: 1194
Status: offline

last time i checked i had an "ass"...not an "arse" (i know, it depends on which country the statements come from) just an observation here

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 35

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 10:47:33 PM

SadistDave

Posts: 801
Joined: 3/11/2005
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quote:

You can have people without a god but you can't have a god without people.

I think this is based on the premise that God(s) actually need us for His/Their own survival. Kind of an arrogant point of view. I mean, if you think about it, any omnipitent being is probably perfectly capable of existing without the need to be worshipped.

Lets assume God exists. If He created man, then he clearly existed BEFORE man. Assuming God is all powerful, all knowing, and an all around nifty kind of being, I think it's safe to figure he will continue to exist far past the time of man.

Now lets assume that God doesn't exist. The question becomes moot and therefore not worth discussing, except as a philosophical discourse on why man feels the need to feel that our own greatness as a race is not sufficient to apply a universal morality to our collective existance.

Coincidentally, you can also have people without a tuna fish sandwich, but you can't have a tuna fish sandwich without people. Kind of makes me wonder about the logic and point behind the original post...

-SD-

(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 36

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 10:51:20 PM

michaelGA

Posts: 1194
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and, isn't it bizzare that people kill other people "In The Name Of God"?

what's with that?

(in reply to SadistDave)

Post #: 37

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:01:46 PM

SirKenin

Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline

The other fault in the logic is that from what we know of God, God does not REQUIRE us to worship him. We are invited to worship him. We do not have to follow Him. We are invited to follow Him. Just because you can play around with words does not mean you can disprove the existence of a being. He is different things to different people, but the fact that remains is He is.

_____________________________

Hi. I don't care. Thanks.

Wicca: Pretending to be an ancient religion since 1956

Catholic Church: Serving up guilt since 107 AD.

(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 38

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:08:59 PM

michaelGA

Posts: 1194
Status: offline

is He? hmmmmmm, i've never seen him, heard him, touched him...does he ever reveal himself in a way that we can comprehend?

i've heard alot of people that have been baptized say they felt different and their spirit were lighter (Like a weight had been lifted off of them) all i ever got was waterlogged ears and the dread of water for a long time.

(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 39

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:18:02 PM

FangsNfeet

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Joined: 12/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

i still do not see that they had a choise of "free will" to die that day or that way...if "God" had really loved and cared for any of them and had the power to do something, they would not have died...some "miracle" would have taken place to save them

Someone had a choice to kill them that day in that way. Devine intervention that would make the planes go "Poof" and reappear safely on the ground and the terrorist in cuffs would be an interference with our free will. Taking away Free Will makes you a tyrant instead of a god.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 40

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