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RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:25:05 PM

michaelGA

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alas, i am not that naive to believe such occurances could occur, but there are other, more believable events that could have changed the course of the events. like the passengers actually finding the ability and strength to do more than sit there and die...if i were going to die in such a situation, i would rather die fighting than sit there and take it.

btw, i have been known to go for hours on end when it come to this subject, i have lots of time to debate this. not like i have anything better to do.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 41

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:31:30 PM

FangsNfeet

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Joined: 12/3/2004
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quote:

I mean, if you think about it, any omnipitent being is probably perfectly capable of existing without the need to be worshipped.

You may still be alive but you would not be known as a god anymore.

As humans we can make machines. We are on the verge of AI. We can even make petrie dishes to grow all sorts of life and bacteria. Do these feets make us a god? So what if we're nothing but a petrie dish to a higher form of life. If he burns us in a bio hazard fernus, he would have to create another petrie dish to make him a god all over again.

If a king kills all his people, how is he still a king when there is no one to serve him? It's the people who make one a king, ruler, or god.

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Post #: 42

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:41:18 PM

michaelGA

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quote:

You may still be alive but you would not be known as a god anymore.

where did this come from, i don't recall saying or implying that i would be a "god", nor would anyone. i said that i feel some people find the strength in them to do extraordinary things and there was enough people up there to overpower the terrorist, especially if they figured out that they were going to die anyway, they could have made more of a difference and possible saved a few lives, maybe not those on the planes, but surely they could have prevented the crashes into the towers and the Pentagon...

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 43

RE: With and without a god. - 12/22/2005 11:50:52 PM

FangsNfeet

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Joined: 12/3/2004
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quote:

alas, i am not that naive to believe such occurances could occur, but there are other, more believable events that could have changed the course of the events. like the passengers actually finding the ability and strength to do more than sit there and die...if i were going to die in such a situation, i would rather die fighting than sit there and take it.

Being taken over by a few people with box cutters does sound somewhat odd but then again, not everyone knew exactly what was going on. If I was on a plane and knew they where going to crash it, yeah I'd fight. However, thinking the idiot wasn't acctually harming anyone and just trying to make this a hostage situation, I'd wait it out till the plane landed to see what a Swat Team would do first before getting inpatient and putting myself and others at risk. You had to many logical people being taken over by terrorist who planned to kill themselves with there hostages. Most people with logic wouldn't see the rationalism or reasoning in killing yourself with your hostage in a suicide fashion. Some years ago there was a comedian who does a musical act with a saw. He did a joke where he talked about how hard it was to get his saw approved by airport security. He would tell security "What's the problem? You really think I would pull out my saw and sream at the top of my lungs at thirty thousand feet "Everyone don't move! I'm taking over the plane with this saw!" "

Many passangers found the strength to just not sit there, they just didn't have the strength to live through it. Many made cell phone calls to there families, some ppl did fight back causing some crashes not to hit there targets. That kind of strength came from the Free Will of deciding to live rather than devine intervention. Whatever the passangers did and didn't do where of the actions of there own free will and not the mind controlling powers of a devine creator that specificly gave us the power of Free Will.

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(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 44

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 12:35:41 AM

quietkitten

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Joined: 2/5/2005
From: Alberta, Canada
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Sir Kenin .......... prove to me that "he is"... give me absolute proof. You can't and you know it. You are welcome to believe whatever the heck you want. I don't believe "he" exists and I never will. As far as pretending to believe in god just in case.. that is something I just can't swallow. Worship related to fear is not my idea of a good time. I would not obey a Master I feared.. and I will not worship a god out of fear.

Fangs...

I really think that the terrorists planned these attacks for years and looked at every possible outcome before making their final decision. They wanted to make the passengers believe that this was simply a highjacking so they (the passengers) would behave. The chances are pretty good that the poor people had no clue what was about to happen... The one flight that did get some warning fought back furiously, and subsequently lost their lives to save those on the ground. I had heard at one point, the terrorists claimed to have a bomb in order to keep the passengers in line.
At one point in time no-one would have ever imagined that this scenario was possible. Now we know. I agree with you, given what I know now.. I would fight to the death with a highjacker before I would sit down, shut up and behave.

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(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 45

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 2:47:32 AM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA

quote:

You may still be alive but you would not be known as a god anymore.

where did this come from, i don't recall saying or implying that i would be a "god", nor would anyone. i said that i feel some people find the strength in them to do extraordinary things and there was enough people up there to overpower the terrorist, especially if they figured out that they were going to die anyway, they could have made more of a difference and possible saved a few lives, maybe not those on the planes, but surely they could have prevented the crashes into the towers and the Pentagon...

Look at the bottom corner of each post - it shows who the poster is responding to. In this case - Fangs was speaking to Sadist Dave.

Peace and Love

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.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 46

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 2:49:42 AM

darkinshadows

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From: UK
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quote:

At one point in time no-one would have ever imagined that this scenario was possible. Now we know. I agree with you, given what I know now.. I would fight to the death with a highjacker before I would sit down, shut up and behave.

No one knows how they would act of behave when placed in such a situation... reactions happen at the moment in the moment. To speculate on the reactions of other when you were not even there, is IMO an insult to those that lost their lives that day. It is very easy to work on the 'whatifs' after the event - I pray you never have to experience the pain and suffering, the torture and the assults that many people face everyday.

quote:

As far as pretending to believe in god just in case.. that is something I just can't swallow. Worship related to fear is not my idea of a good time. I would not obey a Master I feared.. and I will not worship a god out of fear.

Not many do. Of course there are those that teach worship using fear - but that is a different thing altogether.

Peace and Rapture
Worshiping with Love

< Message edited by darkangel -- 12/23/2005 2:53:21 AM >

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.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to quietkitten)

Post #: 47

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 2:58:01 AM

darkinshadows

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quote:

btw, i have been known to go for hours on end when it come to this subject, i have lots of time to debate this. not like i have anything better to do.

Then maybe you should find a way to have more time and less self pity?

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 48

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 4:32:35 AM

FTopinMichigan

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Joined: 7/5/2004
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Threads about a "god" are always amusing to me.

I'm a recovering Catholic, or Atheist, which ever label one prefers...either is appropriate.

Years ago, one of my employees, that was quite religious, just couldn't believe that I "didn't" believe. She was determined to "convert" my way of thinking.

One day, after a phone call, I mentioned that I felt someone was "blessed" in one context or another, and she gleefully exclaimed..."See, you DO believe." I had to laugh at her comment, and we got into an interesting discussion.

Needless to say, she still worked to change my thinking, and asked me if I ever thought about God, or maybe thought to talk to him.

I pondered her question, and told her "yes, I did talk to God."

She was ecstatic. She thought she found my loophole.

I told her...that when I was in the heat of passion, and in the height of an orgasm, I tended to say, "oh gawd, oh gawd, oh gawd!"

She laughed so hard that I think she cried for about ten minutes.

She gave up on converting me.

K

PS And just FYI, this post is not meant to offend those that DO believe. More power to you, if you have faith in God. It's meant to show a light hearted situation, between adults.

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 49

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 5:30:32 AM

MHOO314

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Joined: 9/26/2004
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I beg to differ, it is not the people who make a king or even a god--it is self perception--perception is reality and reality is an important concept---

and IF there is a god creator--and IF that god needs people to be a god---then if there is no one to worship the god and the god feels in need of adoring robotrons, he will again create them, just because WE don't exist doesn't mean he won't create something else and hopefully next time go easy on the self serving, arrogant, greedy hatred ingredients--

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(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 50

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 6:33:56 AM

michaelGA

Posts: 1194
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quote:

Then maybe you should find a way to have more time and less self pity?

where did you get the idea that my beliefs fall under the category of self-pity? interesting that some people see this as such. i have no self pity, only pity for those who can't comprehend that there may be no "God" and, if there is, he really doesn't care for us as much as everyone would like to believe.

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 51

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 7:19:00 AM

JohnWarren

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Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirKenin
I would rather live as though there is a God, then live godlessly and die only to find out there was.

What a hoot it would be if you picked the wrong one, bent yourself out of shape to make him happy and found that the real one had an entirely different set of hoops you were supposed to jump through.

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(in reply to SirKenin)

Post #: 52

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 7:28:00 AM

Mercnbeth

Posts: 11766
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quote:

What a hoot it would be if you picked the wrong one

I have it on good authority..."It's the Mormons who got it right"!

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 53

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 7:32:47 AM

darkinshadows

Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA

quote:

Then maybe you should find a way to have more time and less self pity?

where did you get the idea that my beliefs fall under the category of self-pity? interesting that some people see this as such. i have no self pity, only pity for those who can't comprehend that there may be no "God" and, if there is, he really doesn't care for us as much as everyone would like to believe.

Not once was your belief mentioned by myself - you refered to having much time on your hands, and I stated then if you found a way to have less time, you would have less time to spend wasting in bemoaning how 'not like i have anything better to do'. It is very easy to make slanderous accusations about something or someone you know very little about and putting words in other peoples mouths... but harder to listen to anothers words when it isn't something one wishes to hear.

Pity is a very unhealthy attititude to have. It means that one is not willing to understand anothers point of view... the one who is receiving pity is both disrespected and much wiser than the one wasting their energy on placing pity on that which has asked for none.
I am sure people like Martin Luther, or Mother Theresa or Rumi or Rosa Parkes... are thankful that they are the bearers of wisdom, rather than pity.

Peace and Rapture

_____________________________

.dark.

...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 54

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 7:57:30 AM

MHOO314

Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline

First of all, let Me thank you for an awesome thread---one that for Me has inspired My thought not only of My beliefs but also some very interesting thoughts by others and fairly little flaming---for once--now as I sat in a tub of hot water and bubbles with My coffee ( I will be so glad to have the boy here to attend to those things---but I digress)--I pondered on what has been presented here--and here are My thoughts--

As I have stated before, we here have seemed to perceive that the "American" belief in a god is the prevailing one--I simple pose this question--what if we do find out after death that there is a god, and it is Buddha? or Orion? or Muhammed? hmmm??? or that god is an Asian woman of African decent?? hmmm???

Now given that for thought---I go back to the issue of if there is no one to worship then a god isnt a god--so using that concept, then a tree doesn't exist because there is no human to say---oooga ooga, tree!--which is in My opinion quite amusing--

we seem to feel because WE exist then things exist and if we did not exist, then nothing exists because we do not acknowledge it--

if I can just remind people that WE did not build the earth, we do not control the weather, the movement of the planets, the rise and fall of the sun---hell we can barely wipe our butts let alone intelligently control the munifiscence of the universe--this summer with the many disasters should show us that Nature holds the ultimate trump card---and no belief or non belief in a god or gods changes the outcome--

-and to think that things only exist if we acknowldege them--well...

it exists without and inspite of us, not because of us--

IMHO

_____________________________

SLUTS: Southern Ladies Under Tremendous Stress...

Mistress Hathor

(in reply to FangsNfeet)

Post #: 55

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 8:42:59 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

Sir Kenin .......... prove to me that "he is"... give me absolute proof. You can't and you know it. You are welcome to believe whatever the heck you want. I don't believe "he" exists and I never will.

quietkitten

St. Augustine attempted to "prove" God's existence but in most people's opinions he failed. Most of the people i know believe that worshipping God is grounded in faith, not some replicable scientific experiement. Only St. Thomas was priviledged to question God's existence and have all doubt removed, as Jesus invited him to test His accesion by putting his hand in Jesus' wounds.

i myself have lost my faith before....or perhaps more accurately put, have lost faith in the Catholic Church more than God....but God has never lost His love for me. Every difficulty i have had to face has been handled first by God, then by me.

IMO, people who cannot feel God's love (not young souls casting about) are to be coddled, because the world must be much lonlier and more frightening. However, no one is to be disrespected.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/23/2005 8:44:00 AM >

(in reply to quietkitten)

Post #: 56

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 8:48:34 AM

candystripper

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quote:

where did you get the idea that my beliefs fall under the category of self-pity? interesting that some people see this as such. i have no self pity, only pity for those who can't comprehend that there may be no "God" and, if there is, he really doesn't care for us as much as everyone would like to believe.

i'm truely sorry you don't feel God's love, Michael. i have felt it...many times...and it is a transforming experience. i hope someday soon you get that, but if not, try to remember those of us who believe like to be respected as well.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/23/2005 8:49:06 AM >

(in reply to michaelGA)

Post #: 57

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 8:53:31 AM

candystripper

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Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

What a hoot it would be if you picked the wrong one, bent yourself out of shape to make him happy and found that the real one had an entirely different set of hoops you were supposed to jump through.

JohnWarren

Yanno, i used to grumble about this. According to the Catholic Church, it can be traced directly to St. Peter and is the One True Church. So, i would ask, what about the MILLIONS of Buddiasts, etc, that have never even met a Catholic (as if we'd know how to convert anyway). i was a pest in Religious Instruction, he he. Nowadays i don't give it a second thought; whatever way you make contact with God, by whatever name you know Him/Her is a fine thing; good for you and surely pleasing to God.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/23/2005 8:54:28 AM >

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 58

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 8:55:03 AM

michaelGA

Posts: 1194
Status: offline

at the risk of losing a friend here (i will respect your opinion) but "God" abondonned me long ago and "if" i ever meet up with him, i will definately question so many things that he allowed to occur.

if i've lost our friendship with this statement, i am truly sorry and it will add yet another void to my life. but i'm used to it.

(in reply to candystripper)

Post #: 59

RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 8:56:56 AM

candystripper

Posts: 3486
Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

Pity is a very unhealthy attititude to have. It means that one is not willing to understand anothers point of view... the one who is receiving pity is both disrespected and much wiser than the one wasting their energy on placing pity on that which has asked for none.

darkangel

i recently learnt that despair is a sin; it bespeaks a loss of faith in God. This is the reason suicide is sinful. (At least for Catholics.)

candystripper

(in reply to darkinshadows)

Post #: 60

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