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RE: With and without a god. - 12/23/2005 11:54:07 PM   
quietkitten


Posts: 1082
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From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		You are suggesting that I insulted the memory of those people? How? By suggesting that they had no idea what was about to happen to them?? Or was it when I said that the flight who had some idea of what was actually happening fought to the death? I consider those people to be very courageous... and not just those who fought back... all of them. In my wildest dreams I cannot imagine the terror they felt and the horrible last moments of their lives. I am insulted by your insinuation that I am somehow blackening their memories. There has been a lot of speculation about the events on those planes, and some of that speculation has been corroborated by transmissions and phone calls made by the passengers.

I happen to know that I would muster up my courage and do my very best to fight if I had any inkling that the plane I was on would be used to kill people on the ground. I could not stand to know that I was about to be the tool of destruction of others.

As far as your obvious strength of belief.. that is fine for you. You have faith, I don't.
I have no reason to believe, obviously you do. I think it's time for us to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.


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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 12:35:13 AM   
michaelGA


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Status: offline 		yes, only "god" may or may not have the answer. no one but him could possibly answer it because he (supposedly) has/had the power to do anything yet he did nothing. everyone can speculate on the answer, but they don't "know" the answer.

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 12:43:54 AM   
michaelGA


Posts: 1194
Status: offline 		i totally agree with all that you said and probably fall under the scrutiny of others that i am also blackening their memory in some form or fashion. is this the "love" "he" has for us? if he exists, is this they way to show love for things or people? if it is, i have no use for such things as it is totally appalling to me.

wasn't one of the commandments "Thou Shalt Not Kill"? kind of sets a double standard doesn't it?

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 5:51:40 AM   
SirKenin


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Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: quietkitten

A reply to some posters... not you Fangs.


The reason that I asked for proof he exists is not to question your faith or beliefs. It was to challenge you to change my mind. The bottom line for me is that you cannot prove "his" existence to me... therefore you cannot change my mind.
As far as anyone's belief in God or Allah or any other supreme being... that is their business. But what I am hearing is not "I believe God exists" it is "God exists for everyone.. period end of story"
"he" does not exist for me and never will. No matter what anyone says or does.. I have my own set of beliefs about the nature of existence. "he" is not included in them.



I for one am not here to change your mind. It is up to you what you choose to believe, and I am not going to beat you over the head with My beliefs. Take it for what it is worth, or leave it.


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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 7:10:24 AM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

As far as anyone's belief in God or Allah or any other supreme being... that is their business. But what I am hearing is not "I believe God exists" it is "God exists for everyone.. period end of story"
"he" does not exist for me and never will. No matter what anyone says or does.. I have my own set of beliefs about the nature of existence. "he" is not included in them.


There's nothing wrong to believe in a supreme force/being that created the cosmos and life on earth. However, that alone does not make it a god.

If I ever heard a decended overwheming voice for the sky say "I am the Lord your GOD" I'd reply back "No you're not, you're just a creator of this existence, but since you have my attention, let's talk"

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 7:23:54 AM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

yes, only "god" may or may not have the answer. no one but him could possibly answer it because he (supposedly) has/had the power to do anything yet he did nothing. everyone can speculate on the answer, but they don't "know" the answer.


I'm guessing you're still refering to 9/11. The passangers already had the free will to fight. They didn't need a sign from a supreme being to do that. The strength was already there.

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 7:36:39 AM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FangsNfeet

quote:

yes, only "god" may or may not have the answer. no one but him could possibly answer it because he (supposedly) has/had the power to do anything yet he did nothing. everyone can speculate on the answer, but they don't "know" the answer.


I'm guessing you're still refering to 9/11. The passangers already had the free will to fight. They didn't need a sign from a supreme being to do that. The strength was already there.


But they lacked the strength or skill to fully pull it off. A couple of angels with flaming swords (or MP5s) would have been a big help. Since the big guy didn't do it, I have to infer that he didn't want to do it.



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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 8:05:24 AM   
michaelGA


Posts: 1194
Status: offline 		not neccessarily just them, there's thousands of incidents world-wide that fall under the heading of "got abandoned by God, again"

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 8:07:45 AM   
michaelGA


Posts: 1194
Status: offline 		or maybe he used up all his power creating things and couldn't help anyone if he wanted to, who knows for sure...maybe he's just like a kid with a magnifying glass...and we're the ants.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 8:21:47 AM   
MHOO314


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Status: offline 		hence My question, if god is all forgiving as has been portrayed in many religions, how can it allow innocent people to be slaughtered?--just to learn a lesson?

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 10:30:00 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

hence My question, if god is all forgiving as has been portrayed in many religions, how can it allow innocent people to be slaughtered?--just to learn a lesson?


Well, I'd say there is a big difference between being forgiving and being actively involved in the world.



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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 11:55:17 AM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: quietkitten

You are suggesting that I insulted the memory of those people? How? By suggesting that they had no idea what was about to happen to them?? Or was it when I said that the flight who had some idea of what was actually happening fought to the death? I consider those people to be very courageous... and not just those who fought back... all of them. In my wildest dreams I cannot imagine the terror they felt and the horrible last moments of their lives. I am insulted by your insinuation that I am somehow blackening their memories. There has been a lot of speculation about the events on those planes, and some of that speculation has been corroborated by transmissions and phone calls made by the passengers.


If you will be insulted by what another says, then don't post or read that person - that simple. We are all responsible for what we say, what we type and how we react.

quote:

I happen to know that I would muster up my courage and do my very best to fight if I had any inkling that the plane I was on would be used to kill people on the ground. I could not stand to know that I was about to be the tool of destruction of others.

As far as your obvious strength of belief.. that is fine for you. You have faith, I don't.
I have no reason to believe, obviously you do. I think it's time for us to agree to disagree, and leave it at that.




As I said before... nobody can know what they would do in a situation - it is all relative to the situation and there are too many sides to consider. To think you could know is a very dangerous place to be. It means that all consequences and people involved do not matter. I know we disagree - and that is cool... and that is just my personal thought.

And I totally do agree that we have different belief structures... our freedom of will and - as we are both blessed- freedom of expression, which few people have in this huge, diverse world... I think disagreeing is a fine and wonderful thing because it opens to great discussions and learning about different peoples, places and cultures... including the spiritual and ethical beliefs of different people.

Peace and Rapture

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 12:33:30 PM   
quietkitten


Posts: 1082
Joined: 2/5/2005
From: Alberta, Canada
Status: offline 		You have the right to say what you please and so do I. If I am offended.. by what you say to me I have the right to say so... just as you have the right to point out if I offend you.

I will continue to post as I see fit, and I am certain you will as well. If you post something I disagree with, I will debate it. I am sure that you will do the same.


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<< I am a depressed procrastinator with Alzheimers -- I am going to end it all.... tomorrow... or the next day.

Now what was I talking about again?

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 1:20:00 PM   
darkinshadows


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Debate away -


“It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it.”
Joseph Joubert

Peace and Rapture

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 1:32:40 PM   
pantera


Posts: 210
Joined: 1/7/2005
Status: offline 		I believe that matter can not be destroyed or created...

I also believe that men created God mainly out of our knowledge and fear of death - we need to tell ourselves that there will be something after, that there is a purpose.... we refuse to accept that we are here by pure luck-




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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 3:13:04 PM   
candystripper


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Joined: 11/1/2005
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quote:

But they lacked the strength or skill to fully pull it off. A couple of angels with flaming swords (or MP5s) would have been a big help. Since the big guy didn't do it, I have to infer that he didn't want to do it.

JohnWarren


Why God allows evil -- or even just loss -- to occur in the world is a conundrum for the ages. As i understand it, Catholics are taught that God allows evil so that grace shines brighter -- a thoroughly unsatisfactory answer from my POV.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/24/2005 3:45:05 PM >

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 4:43:33 PM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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quote:

I believe that matter can not be destroyed or created...


Well, matter evolves. It is destroyed, yet remains to become something else. So from a christian point of view, it doesn't disagree. Matter can from God... so it came from something and evolved. It came from nothing, yet came from something... just like any creation and invention.

quote:

I also believe that men created God mainly out of our knowledge and fear of death -


Well, you can believe that, doesn't make it right for everyone, just yourself. Just shows one perspective. You cannot speak for all beleivers of every religion. Although there is buddha, the majority don't follow a god, they follow a concept... and many chrisitans have no fear of death and never have... hindus and muslims embrace death... is this because of their faith? It may help - but there are many who never feared death even before their conversions - so your assumption and generalisation is empty, as you are only one person, with or without faith.

Peace and Love

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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 4:46:23 PM   
darkinshadows


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From: UK
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quote:

But they lacked the strength or skill to fully pull it off. A couple of angels with flaming swords (or MP5s) would have been a big help. Since the big guy didn't do it, I have to infer that he didn't want to do it.


Greetings John

I would then ask, why You think He should want to?
Thanks in advance-

Peace and Rapture

< Message edited by darkangel -- 12/24/2005 4:47:01 PM >

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 4:48:48 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

hence My question, if god is all forgiving as has been portrayed in many religions, how can it allow innocent people to be slaughtered?--just to learn a lesson?


Hello MH...

In response - freewill.

Peace and Rapture

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.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 4:50:29 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkangel


quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

hence My question, if god is all forgiving as has been portrayed in many religions, how can it allow innocent people to be slaughtered?--just to learn a lesson?

Hello MH...

In response - freewill.

Peace and Rapture[/center][/font][/size]


It's free will when a baby slowly drowns in muddy water as a house floods?

Bad baby!


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