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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 5:07:11 PM   
darkinshadows


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Bad baby? No.

Bad that we don't learn from these occurances? Yes.

Even if you take away the existance of any god or goddess... or any entity... the result is still the same.
We are not learning.

Peace and Rapture

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 6:03:53 PM   
MHOO314


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Status: offline 		We cannot learn when Nature holds the ultimate trump card--there is nothing to learn--and if the destruction of innocent people is freewill--then Christian beliefs need to change to a god that is kind, loving, vengeful and wrathful---hmmm I hardly think humanity is ready for that radical a change--IMHO

and btw, I love everyone's posts here, so free, so spirited and damn thought provoking, hear hear--we want more like this!

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 11:34:37 PM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

But they lacked the strength or skill to fully pull it off. A couple of angels with flaming swords (or MP5s) would have been a big help. Since the big guy didn't do it, I have to infer that he didn't want to do it.


People/terrorist by themselves had the strength to crash the planes. Atleast it does not seem that they had angels or demons by there side to pull the event off. In that case, why should the other side have that advantage?
After all, isn't this world made up of Ying and Yang?

If God interviened in plans/thoughts, it would interfere with the power of free will. We would siest to happen. Should God go back on his word?

As for natural disasters, I think that horse has been beaten to death and turned into glue in the Acts of God Riddle thread that Mercnbeth started some months ago.

My only statement is that a "god" is only one that can be worshiped as one by a worshipers choice. Choice is our power. Some of us use it to help while others want it to take away everyone elses choices. All of us have the choice to steal, kill, give, and help. Taking away those choices would keep God/creator from being a "god"

So it's like I said. Without a god we are still people. But without people, God can't remain a god.

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 11:45:13 PM   
candystripper


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quote:

We cannot learn when Nature holds the ultimate trump card--there is nothing to learn--and if the destruction of innocent people is freewill--then Christian beliefs need to change to a god that is kind, loving, vengeful and wrathful---hmmm I hardly think humanity is ready for that radical a change--IMHO

and btw, I love everyone's posts here, so free, so spirited and damn thought provoking, hear hear--we want more like this!

MHOO314


i venture to say, if You took Comparative Religions, You'd still not find a satisfactory answer to why God allows evil and chaos in the world. No one knows, and many lose their faith because of an inadequate answer. i think i did, for awhile. But God never stopped loving and caring for me. My God is not vain or vengeful; He has certain rules for our behavior which, when followed, make us happier here and help ensure a happy afterlife. That's MO, anyway.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/24/2005 11:47:23 PM >

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/24/2005 11:50:46 PM   
candystripper


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quote:

So it's like I said. Without a god we are still people. But without people, God can't remain a god.

FangsNFeet


i know from experience, even after long absences, God is still there, loving and waiting for us. God's existence does not need our recognition to continue.

candystripper

< Message edited by candystripper -- 12/24/2005 11:51:15 PM >

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/25/2005 12:35:56 AM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

i know from experience, even after long absences, God is still there, loving and waiting for us. God's existence does not need our recognition to continue.


By experience you mean that you've been dead before or simply that no matter what situations you put yourself in, you had a chuch to go to where you were accepted and told all is now okay for you are forgiven? With a reply such as above, you might as well given us the "Foot Prints" poem link that paints such a pretty picture. The "Let go and let God" idea truely dose not mean that God takes your burdens away. Instead, it's only a confidence boost that puts you in a different frame of mind to tackle your problems.

Gods existense to live as a being dose not require our recognition. However, to exist as god, that recognition is required. If this is to blastphmous to some, be assured that I do attend to take the matter up with any and all higher beings that supposedly created us when given the chance.

So Gods waiting for us eh? How interesting since there are so many waiting on him.




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RE: With and without a god. - 12/25/2005 8:31:04 AM   
Yourkitten


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Status: offline 		this is a topic that brings many views. but in the end only one counts and that is mine for me. i believe there is a higher power. one who put us here millions of years ago. not necessarily god but more than god.

i believe that when i pass on i will go to a place where my cats and horses will be waiting for me. my mother and one day my father. i would like to believe also, that when we pass we come back as something else.

if i didnt believe there was something more when i die then what would be the sense of living now. i do know i will see my friends family and my animals again and know they are watching me and waiting for me.

i dont go to church as i dont need to go inside a building with a bunch of people to pray. i can pray when i want and to who i want and what i believe is what i believe.

no priest, rabbi, nun or group can tell me what i can and cannot do and what will happen if i dont.

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/26/2005 7:30:35 AM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

this is a topic that brings many views. but in the end only one counts and that is mine for me. i believe there is a higher power. one who put us here millions of years ago. not necessarily god but more than god.


That's great, but is this higher power a god that you worship?

Dumbo found out that with or without the magic feather, he can still fly. We don't have to belive in the existense of a higher power to exist. However, the higer power needs us to belive in it and worship to make it a god.

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/27/2005 8:11:00 AM   
quietkitten


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkitten

this is a topic that brings many views. but in the end only one counts and that is mine for me.


I am so happy that someone else understands what I am trying to say.



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I miss my old Avatar :(

<< I am a depressed procrastinator with Alzheimers -- I am going to end it all.... tomorrow... or the next day.

Now what was I talking about again?

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/30/2005 12:49:26 AM   
SadistDave


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quote:

Dumbo found out that with or without the magic feather, he can still fly. We don't have to belive in the existense of a higher power to exist. However, the higer power needs us to belive in it and worship to make it a god.


Let me see if I can explain this.

You're talking about semantics. This is the old "If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, is there a sound?" arguement. Your twist is that not only is there no sound, there is no tree... Lets look at this from the other angle though.

An ant, for example, probably doesn't know it's an ant. That doesn't mean it is anything else. We call it an ant, but what if we called it a cow? It still acts like the word we use to describe an ant. It still looks like the word we use to describe an ant. It is not "cow-esque" in any way, shape, or form. It still does all the things the word we use to describe an ant does, we have simply decided to call it a cow. This is just playing with language.

Suppose we decide to worship our cow/ant. Will it need us to sacrifice to it, or pray to it in order to exist? Will our cow/ant, once elevated to Godhood become more than an ant? Will it become less than an ant if we choose to deny it our spritual supplication and choose to simply say "It's an ant."? If we choose to deny that ants exist, will our cow/ant cease to be? If we strike the word from our language, will it cease to be anything other than what we currently call an ant?

So, lets take God. Popular belief has it that God has always existed. That means you need to think of infinity into the past. Infinity is a very, very, long time. Scientifically, we can date our planet back a couple of billion years. A couple of billion years is peanuts to infinity. So working back to the point at which our planet was created a couple of billion years ago, lets say there was nothing. Nada. Zero. Zilch.

From zilch, work infinity backwards. If God existed for infinity before creating the Earth, then He/She/It existed as what the human animal calls a god (in the English language) without benefit of our worship. He/She/It did not need for us to exist in order to exist. He/She/It simply existed. We may not have existed to form a word for what God is, but if popular dogma is correct, then that does not change the fact that one supernatural, omnipotent being has always existed.

He/She/It is simply God. Humans worship God because of what He/She/It is, not because humans are neccessary for He/She/It to exist.

Enter science. Science cannot prove or disprove the existance of God. Whether science actually manages to prove or disprove Gods existance will not change the fact that God either exists, or doesn't. If indeed, God exists, He/She/It will continue to exist even if science can not prove it. If He/She/It doesn't exist, then He/She/It will continue not to exist even if science indicates that HeShe/It does. Either way, whatever characteristics God may (or may not) have will be changed not one whit by His/Her/Its existance being proven or disproven.

Believing a thing does not make it so. Conversly; disbelief does not make something cease to be. The good news is that we'll all find out some day whether our individual opinions of God are correct. The bad news is that it's our last day to live. So my suggestion is to live every day as though it's your last, because one day, you'll be right.

-SD-

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/30/2005 5:07:26 AM   
michaelGA


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Status: offline 		i still look at this "god" thing as a kid with a magnifying glass, holding it over us to watch us be tortured and tormented because some don't worship "him". i believe "he" has an evil streak about "him" and uses us for "his" own amusement.

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/30/2005 6:44:48 AM   
FangsNfeet


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quote:

Enter science. Science cannot prove or disprove the existance of God. Whether science actually manages to prove or disprove Gods existance will not change the fact that God either exists, or doesn't. If indeed, God exists, He/She/It will continue to exist even if science can not prove it. If He/She/It doesn't exist, then He/She/It will continue not to exist even if science indicates that HeShe/It does. Either way, whatever characteristics God may (or may not) have will be changed not one whit by His/Her/Its existance being proven or disproven.


Even if Gods existance is true, he/she/it isn't a god unless we choose for he/she/it to be a god. Otherwise, it's only an advanced life form to us which can create existance on a higher scale. If this creator destroyed us, then who would worship it to make she/he/it a god?

All this time to evolve, create, and think, and we're still no better off than ancient Egyptions, Greeks, and Vikings. We still continue to use gods and other supernatural events on creation, death, and miracles, to explain what we haven't figured out yet. It's almost as if we're just looking for an easy way out.

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/30/2005 5:19:02 PM   
SadistDave


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quote:

Even if Gods existance is true, he/she/it isn't a god unless we choose for he/she/it to be a god. Otherwise, it's only an advanced life form to us which can create existance on a higher scale. If this creator destroyed us, then who would worship it to make she/he/it a god?


I'm not going to argue this point. We clearly see this in a different light. No reason to continue on this line...

quote:

All this time to evolve, create, and think, and we're still no better off than ancient Egyptions, Greeks, and Vikings. We still continue to use gods and other supernatural events on creation, death, and miracles, to explain what we haven't figured out yet. It's almost as if we're just looking for an easy way out.


As for it being an easy way out, I'm not so sure of that. Pick a religion, any religion, and try to follow the principles for a week or so. It would be pretty tough for most people to actually follow the teachings of the faith of their choice to the letter for a lifetime. I think it would be much easier for individuals to form their own moral principles than to try to conform to a faith based code of behavior.

If you really examine the evidence, all cultures have created rules of some sort that make it possible for them to live together in harmony. The rules have helped them evolve as a social entity instead of as individual ones. Since so many of these moral principles come from faith in a higher power, there is likely some instinct driving us that needs this social structure in order to evolve. Religion has filled that role for many thousands of years.

Actually, if you put it into perspective, without religion, faith, or a belief in some sort of order to society, we probably wouldn't have survived, let alone progressed past the stone age.

-SD-

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/30/2005 9:37:48 PM   
onceburned


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA
what happens when an immovable object is hit by an irresistable force?

this would probably cause oblivion.


Yes, according to a couple creation myths, but the struggle between Anu and Padomay (or Anuiel and Sithis, if you prefer) also resulted in creation of other dimensions as well.

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/30/2005 10:16:09 PM   
LaMalinche


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Status: offline 		This is the old "If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, is there a sound?" arguement.

---------------------------------------------------

The answer, assuming that by "no one", you mean anything that has ears, then No. What would be produced is sound waves. And unless these sound waves are vibrated off of something that can translate them (ear drum and brain centers) there is no sound.


-------------------------------------

Job has been mentioned, along with getting answers from "gawd". Well for one, in the old testament Job story, god eggs on the advasary to do more and more horrible things to Job. Not very loving in my opinion, and besides, the old testament god was NOT a loving god - that comes with the new testament. Further more, when Job does question god, the answer he recieves, is along the lines, of because I am god, and you are a mere mortal that couldn't understand, and how dare you question me. So, my point is, has anyone considered that that would be the answer you would recieve when demanding an accounting of all the bad things that happen?

------------------------------------------------

FangsNFeet: Out of curiosity, did you recently read Terry Prachett's "Small Gods"? It sounds like it, and if you haven't I would recommend it. You can get it in paperback for $6.99.

-----------------------------------------------------

Why do people kill in god's name? So they do not have to take personal responsibility.

---------------------------------------------

Why do people talk of feeling lighter after baptism or confession? Because they believe that they have been absolved of their offenses. They are not, witness the recent execution in CA, but they tell themselves they are.

-------------------------------------------------

The commandment is "Thou shalt not murder." Not, "Thou shalt not kill." Not semantics, the hebrew has different deffinitions for the two.

-------------------------------------------------

Why didn't god stop the holocaust, rita, katrina, 9-11? Well, the last time god messed around on earth, it was to knock up a teenage virgin. I suppose that none of those other things were quite as fun. Seriosly, he hasn't involved himself in over 2000 years. Why start this century?

-----------------------------------------------------

Just my 2 cents, I probably have change coming.

LaMalinche


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RE: With and without a god. - 12/30/2005 10:39:12 PM   
michaelGA


Posts: 1194
Status: offline 		pofivided you buy into those myths


IMHO...the bible is one of the largest selling fiction novels ever written

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Profile   Post #: 116
RE: With and without a god. - 12/31/2005 7:22:35 AM   
LaMalinche


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelGA

pofivided you buy into those myths


IMHO...the bible is one of the largest selling fiction novels ever written



Michael,

Sure, I'll buy into any myth. Yep that is a myth. I believe it is a myth. Yeah, there goes another one. That is a myth too. I really believe it. I also believe that other people believe that it is more than a myth. Hell, twice a week, millions of people buy Powerball tickets and believe they are going to win. They make up all these nifty plans in their head about what they will do with the money and how altruistic they will be. What a myth. And in the state I live in, there is also a state lotto. People will buy that instead of the Powerball because of the "better odds" However, if you do the math, you find out that the better odds are not statistically significant. Which really makes the so-called better odds theory a myth. I could go on, but I won't.
So, yes, I believe in myths, I believe they exist.

Second, although kind of picky, is this. . . the bible is NOT a novel. Novel's have only been around for 200 years. They started as short french love stories. And before someone tells me that "Song of Solomon" would then qualify as a novel, that was poetry. Poetry does not qualify as a novel. BTW, novel means "new". Essintially, it was a new form of writting.

I need coffee.

LaMalinche

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RE: With and without a god. - 12/31/2005 12:21:58 PM   
SadistDave


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quote:

Job has been mentioned, along with getting answers from "gawd". Well for one, in the old testament Job story, god eggs on the advasary to do more and more horrible things to Job. Not very loving in my opinion, and besides, the old testament god was NOT a loving god - that comes with the new testament. Further more, when Job does question god, the answer he recieves, is along the lines, of because I am god, and you are a mere mortal that couldn't understand, and how dare you question me. So, my point is, has anyone considered that that would be the answer you would recieve when demanding an accounting of all the bad things that happen?


How very true...

If you really deconstruct the Bible, God comes off as a very cruel and apathetic diety throughout the entire Old Testiment. The Bible isn't even very original in it's plots and moral values. Moreover, it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense as any sort of guide in our present culture. Perhaps, thats why the O.T. has been largely abandoned by the Christian faith.

-SD-

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RE: With and without a god. - 1/2/2006 3:00:47 PM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I am not extremely religious.
I think it's wrong that people need a set of "rules" (commandments) in order to live a good life, be just, and kind to others.



A Jew who lived in Jerusalem during Herod's reign wrote "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation."

Sounds good to me.

Oh, the Jew's name was Hillel.


Amen to that. And I'm not even Jewish. Maybe I should be?

chymes

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RE: With and without a god. - 1/2/2006 3:04:40 PM   
windchymes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

religion is an organized collection of concepts providing a sense of community--having nothing to do with one's sense of spirituality--IMHO, the two are very different--one can have no relationship with a "god" but can be extremely spiritual--


Hmmmmm.....then BDSM is a religion?

chymes

< Message edited by windchymes -- 1/2/2006 3:05:53 PM >

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