RE: .BNP Members Leak. (Full Version)

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MadAxeman -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 7:38:58 AM)

I believe it is because they have backtracked from their original positions and mined into a seam of English dissatisfaction. Their attack is now pointedly upon 'immigrants' and a perceived English disenfranchicement, not specifically race which saw them politically alienated.




Raechard -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 7:39:53 AM)

Also NG they have been able to say 'look at who our actual members are' dismissing previous stereotypes and given them some kind of bizarre legitimacy in some people’s eyes. The publication of this list isn't good for anyone but them.




Raechard -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 7:48:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman
I believe it is because they have backtracked from their original positions and mined into a seam of English dissatisfaction. Their attack is now pointedly upon 'immigrants' and a perceived English disenfranchicement, not specifically race which saw them politically alienated.



Yes you are right they are politically savvy now. What they've been demonstrated to say in private in undercover documentaries is vial in terms of religious and ethnic hatred. Some of their own members would be shocked by it I expect, which demonstrates that this list is rather invalid because some environmental candidates joined for their cause at the detriment of our cause for religious and ethnic tolerance, they gave them credibility by joining in such a selfish manor just because of their green false promises.




MadAxeman -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 8:14:27 AM)

On the day following this 'scandal', there were numerous regular people phoning into 5Live and supporting them. Definitely not the same people that were their founding base. Privately, the inner core of the BNP haven't changed at all. But they are as you say savvy, educated and much less publicly abrasive.




Lorr47 -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 8:19:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

BNP Members targeted.

If there is nothing apparently inherently wrong with the people you support, why would it be such an issue for you to admit your affiliations?
 
the.dark.


Just another right wing conservative extremist party whose members should be listed so we can make sure they have all their shots.  I would say more but my resolution was to play nice with the right for at least a week.(There must be something truly evil about the BNP since the bold will not go off.)




LadyEllen -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 8:25:32 AM)

On the DNA database thread great pains have been taken to ensure the message is conveyed that not all Labour members, (or indeed supporters) are in favour of the DNA database.

Equally, similar pains have been taken to convey the message that not all supporters of the DNA database are Labour members or supporters.

Now, does this not mean that we must acknowledge that racist notions are not supported by all BNP members or supporters - and likewise does this not mean that not all racists are members of the BNP?

Or do we have one rule for our favourites, and another for those we choose to castigate?

E




Raechard -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 8:38:51 AM)

The BNP like UKIP is a single policy party, people should understand what the single policy is before they join. You can't really compare a single policy party to a mainstream party because a single policy party only pretends to have other policies to attract gullible members to its main cause. I don't know what the main cause of the Labour or The Conservative party is because they don't have one, instead they have a range of policy variations that will legitimately attract voters. What happens when a single policy party gets into government and then has to take an interest in the NHS etc? That would be fascinating to see but only if I am well out of their scope of influence by that time.




LadyEllen -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 8:40:02 AM)

So this applies to Sinn Fein?

E




Raechard -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 8:42:06 AM)

Yep just look who they made minister for education, mind you they don’t have many candidates to choose from without extremist views do they?




Lorr47 -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 9:02:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

On the DNA database thread great pains have been taken to ensure the message is conveyed that not all Labour members, (or indeed supporters) are in favour of the DNA database.

Equally, similar pains have been taken to convey the message that not all supporters of the DNA database are Labour members or supporters.

Now, does this not mean that we must acknowledge that racist notions are not supported by all BNP members or supporters - and likewise does this not mean that not all racists are members of the BNP?

Or do we have one rule for our favourites, and another for those we choose to castigate?

E


I am probably not understanding you.  By analogy, are you saying that even  if I had been a member of the Nazi party that I personally might not have been anti Jewish?  If I  was a member of the Nazi party and looked around and saw my party exterminating Jews, then I would hope that I would leave the party in protest.  I guess in my simplisty I would view any remaining members of the Nazi party as being against Jews. Maybe I would be painting with a broad brush but conspirators are all equally liable even if you are conspiring by silence.

Were all Jew haters in the Nazi party? No, but those outside the party were not necessarily systematically exterminating Jews.  The danger lies in the organization.

Yes, there is one rule for the winners and another rule for the losers whether we are talking about War Crimes or the 2008 elections. Come to think of it, War Crimes and the 2008 elections may have been dealing with the same issues and the same group of politicians.

Like I said, I probably am misunderstanding your statement.




MadAxeman -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 8:27:44 PM)

I think the reference is to the fact that the BNP is picking up members who do not have race as their driving issue.




kidwithknife -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/7/2008 9:22:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The reason its serious (well, the second reason maybe) is that BNP members and activists get targeted by left wing groups for harassment and violence, justified by them as being necessary to resist the BNP.

Since such left wing groups have long been involved in publishing details of BNP members and activists for precisely this purpose, one would wonder at this latest episode being "news" as such.


Which groups specifically?  That's a genuine question.  Because, to the best of my knowledge, most anti-fascist opposition to the BNP takes place on the streets.  I'll happily justify that, but it's a different issue then the targetting of groups through the publishing of these kind of personal details.  (There is also the specific targetting of BNP members at work to try and threaten their employment, which I'm not in favour of).  But, off the top of my head, the only publishing of personal details that I can think of is actually done by the far right through Redwatch.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meatcleaver

What is terribly revealing about this case is that the police seem reluctant to find and prosecute the person who broke the law.


Hmm, you were possibly jumping the gun there I think.  This has hardly taken a long time compared to a lot of criminal investigations-

http://www.thisisnottingham.co.uk/homenews/arrested-Notts-BNP-membership-leak/article-527013-detail/article.html

Sadie Graham, who's been arrested is an ex BNP officer and anti  leadership rebel. (I'm pretty sure I can hazard a guess at who the other individual arrested was.  Another ex BNP member.  But I'll hold fire on naming him at this point for obvious reasons).





MadAxeman -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/8/2008 5:10:14 AM)

I lost much of my taste for much of that after seeing peope with good minds and ideas devolve at the battle of Waterloo in 1992.




kidwithknife -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/8/2008 8:21:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman

I lost much of my taste for much of that after seeing peope with good minds and ideas devolve at the battle of Waterloo in 1992.
I was at Waterloo, as it happens.  (I'm guessing you can pinpoint my past affilliation, groupwise now.  You seem reasonably familar with the area).

And the question of the morality of those kind of tactics is largely a subjective one I feel.  The question of effectiveness?  Less so.

I'd argue that the following things were all a direct result of said tactics:

The collapse of C18 as a serious street force.

The retreat of Blood & Honour into doing nothing but organising secret gigs in the middle of nowhere.

The BNP abandoning confrontational street activity of the "boots and braces" type for the ballot box.

Is physical confrontation "glamourous"?  God, no.  It's a brutal, dirty, business.  But it's a tactic I'd argue is sometimes necessary, particuarly when you take into account the utmost importance of territorial control to much of the post-war British fascist movement.

You have to remember that, prior to those tactics being used, the far right were launching attacks on leftist paper sellers weekly.  They had a confidence and a momentum that it was vital to stop.

That said, I'd not see physical confrontation as a useful tactic with the BNP currently.  It's not the late 80's/early 90's anymore and the battle terrain has heavily shifted.  Currently, the focus has to be politically countering the BNP among their target demographic.  And that's largely a matter of proper community activism work.




MadAxeman -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/8/2008 8:57:49 AM)

Nothing to disagree with you there Kid.
The main fear I have with the current BNP is they are idealogically shifting (however slightly and cosmetically) and there isn't quite the same rotten but fixed base to push against. Their appeal to a wider demographic is interesting and not a little worrying. Is it possible for them to evolve into something we can accomodate in mainstream political life? A strong and effective lobby group would help. Anti fascism has little power now although it's usually seen as 'a good thing' by the proles.




kidwithknife -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/8/2008 11:06:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadAxeman
The main fear I have with the current BNP is they are idealogically shifting (however slightly and cosmetically) and there isn't quite the same rotten but fixed base to push against. Their appeal to a wider demographic is interesting and not a little worrying. Is it possible for them to evolve into something we can accomodate in mainstream political life?
I think that's unlikely.  I'd agree with you that there has been a ideological shift.  But largely that's been an abandoment of Nazism as an ideology (despite the influence on some leading BNP members, Mark Collett being the most obvious), as opposed to an abandonment of fascism per se.  It is the case however that Le Pen has more influence on the ideology of the modern BNP than Hitler does.  That's one of the problems with much modern anti-fascist campaigning in my view.  By misreading the BNP as Nazis, it actually fails to understand their nature.

When looking at whether the BNP will evolve beyond that into something that can be accomodated, or whether this is a tactical shift rather then a significant move away from fascism, we have to look at what Nick Griffin, in particular, has said when speaking to a supportive audience.  Looking at what the BNP say for public consumption only gives us half the picture.

Why do nationalists, and nationalists alone, insist on spelling out in words of one syllable where they come from and where they want to go? Is it really honesty, or is it just plain stupidity? This is a life and death struggle for white survival, not a fancy dress party. A little less banner waving and a little more guile wouldn’t go amiss....

As long as our own cadres understand the full implications of our struggle, then there is no need for us to do anything to give the public cause for concern ...


we must at all times present them with an image of moderate reasonableness....

Of course, we must teach the truth to the hardcore, for, like you, I do not intend this movement to lose its way. But when it comes to influencing the public, forget about racial differences, genetics, Zionism, historical revisionism and so on – all ordinary people want to know is what we can do for them that the other parties can’t or won’t.

Politics is always the art of the possible, so we must judge every policy by one simple criterion: Is it realistically possible that a decisive proportion of the British people will support it? If not, then to scale down our short-term ambitions to a point at which the answer becomes ‘yes’ is not a sell-out, but the only possible step closer to our eventual goal.


(All quotes taken from Griffin writing about modernisation of the BNP in Patriot, 1999).

From that article alone, I think we're well advised to be cynical about the seeming cosmetic changes in the BNP.

So the main question left is what the BNP's current tactical strategy actually is.  I'd argue that it comes from combining two main sources.

The first is pseudo Tory right wing populism.  It's definitely a factor, but I think it's important not to overstate that.  Despite the claims of his hardline opponents on the far-right, Griffin has not turned the BNP into a right wing populist party and he's not going to.  (The BNP organisational structure, based on 'cadres' of activists as opposed to OMOV is, at least in part, set up to stop that happening).  On its own, it wouldn't be enough to explain the relative success the BNP is currently enjoying.  The problem for a party like the BNP, with the fascist past of their leading members, of employing a strategy like that by itself is pretty simple.  They're always going to be prone to being outmaneuvered by right wing populists without the fascist baggage to contend with- whether UKIP or the Tories themselves.

So what Griffin has done is combine it with non-Nazi fascist strategies.  It's very notable that a lot of what Griffin is doing with the BNP (presentation of the BNP as merely being about 'rights for whites' in a multicultural society, community activism, the playing down of traditional fascist antisemitism, tactical alliances with non-white separatists etc.) is actually a development of what he tried previously as a third positionist, in the 'political soldier' wing of the Offical National Front, back in the 1980's.  He also is very close to Patrick Harrington who, while not a BNP member, has probably done more to develop these strategies than any other far right individual.

To try and conclude this lengthy post together, one reason I think this is important is the current economic climate.  The BNP were never going to make the breakthrough when things were stable, fascist parties never do.  But when we're entering a period of 'interesting times', things are a lot harder to predict.  And it's looking like we may be about to enter a historical period when conditions are far more favourable to them.


(As a quick note, any BNP members I've named in this post are public and prominent members of the party- party officials etc.  I haven't taken names off the list).




Politesub53 -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/8/2008 2:03:01 PM)

The fear is that the BNP, much like New Labour, see the only way of becoming electable is to change tack. Thats to say they want to blur the distinction between racism, and genuine fears about immigration ect. Personally i dont think the BNP will ever be able to shed is racist image, thankfully. That said, I am still unhappy that anyone who wants to belong to any party can have their details posted on the internet.




tweedydaddy -> RE: .BNP Members Leak. (12/8/2008 6:13:22 PM)

I don't give a toss how a policeman or teacher votes, it's up to them and nothing to do with me. As long as the BNP is a constituted political  party they are no threat to anyone, beyond a few local councillors they have no say in anything and demand way too many inches in the media for a tiny group. I would be far more worried about the spoiled students from greenpeace and friends of the earth who seem hell bent on bringing down planes, wrecking science labs, and using up their grant money to start what is essentially a terrorist movement right under our noses.
If I hear another public schoolgirl ranting on about global warming while buggering up working people's holidays my ears will burst!
I think the BNP are the only people benefitting from all this fuss about the leak.
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