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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 8:10:28 AM

SteelofUtah

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From: St George Utah
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I worked under the Tile and Brick Masons Union Local 178 in Las Vegas NV. I Set all sorts of stone, tile and rock. I received a fair wage as a finisher and the work was constantly changing. My Issue with the Union is Union workers. People who do not believe in a proper chain of comunication. My Setter was a good man we often worked alone with no other setters around us. He was Kind and gave me a good education, he believed that was part of his job as a Master Journeyman to Teach the (at the time) Apprentice how tro work the trade. He died and I was given a new setter who barked and yelled at me all day long, according to him he was making me work for my place in the Union, that it wasn't free, to which I said I pay the same dues you do to work here, to which he fired me as his finisher and I went to another setter and this happened a lot until I eventually ended up on C Book.

This Meant that there were many other people ahead of me waiting for jobs so I was on Unemployment or walking picket lines. While on Picket lines We would yell at other people who were non union for doing jobs that we felt should have been ours. This is something I never understood. Why were they supposed to be our jobs? If another group of people can do the same work faster and just as well for less monet why would should you be required to use a Union. After my Second Picket Line I dropped out of the Union and have never been back.

My issue with Unions is the Entitlement that is shared among most union workers, they believe they are entitled to more because they joined a Union instead of being entitled to more because they do more. In relaity a union job will take Longer than a Non union job and cost you nearly twice as much, and you could get the exact same workmanship from a NON union company.

I believe in working and getting what you deserve, I believe that raises should be based on Merit not on timelines and I believe that if a person has a bad attitude on a job site he should be fired and get someone who has a better attitude.

But that's just my Opinion, My two cents among a sea of pocket change

Steel

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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 8:13:18 AM

kdsub

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Unions are a balance to the greed of industrialists. If it were not for unions and governmental laws inspired by unions you and your children would still be working 6 days a week 10 hours a day for pennies.

Of course this is not the case with every business owner and times have changed. The problems with unions today is they often refuse to work with management when the business is in trouble. How many of us want to take cuts in wages and benefits.

In my area a business employing union workers is associated with quality work. I’d much rather pay a few dollars more for a union bricklayer or carpenter.
Butch

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Post #: 22

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 8:14:21 AM

tweedydaddy

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It mostly dates back to early American unions which were dominated by crooks like Hoffa, so a certain level of cynicism can be expected.
Not like our nice British communist militant "let's wreck the industry" lot.
Which is why we no longer exist as manufacturers.
great job our union leaders are doing protecting jobs in the banks, motor industry, and Rolls Royce eh? Makes you proud.
Unions, onions, - both end in tears.

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Post #: 23

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 8:25:00 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

It mostly dates back to early American unions which were dominated by crooks like Hoffa, so a certain level of cynicism can be expected.
Not like our nice British communist militant "let's wreck the industry" lot.
Which is why we no longer exist as manufacturers.
great job our union leaders are doing protecting jobs in the banks, motor industry, and Rolls Royce eh? Makes you proud.
Unions, onions, - both end in tears.

Early American? I remember when Hoffa dissapeared...Damn I feel old now. Thanks

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Post #: 24

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 8:28:59 AM

camille65

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From: Austin Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

It mostly dates back to early American unions which were dominated by crooks like Hoffa, so a certain level of cynicism can be expected.
Not like our nice British communist militant "let's wreck the industry" lot.
Which is why we no longer exist as manufacturers.
great job our union leaders are doing protecting jobs in the banks, motor industry, and Rolls Royce eh? Makes you proud.
Unions, onions, - both end in tears.

Early American? I remember when Hoffa dissapeared...Damn I feel old now. Thanks

My father was working in a coal mine at the age of 6, he built himself a new world and as an adult he knew Jimmy Hoffa.

It just struck me as funny, reading this thread and being able to link that together.

Oh he also worked in a Ford plant sometime during the early 50's (I have no idea if he was a member of any union there, history and dates are totally not my forte`).

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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 8:39:03 AM

LadyHibiscus

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Union girl here. The unions WERE a fine thing, and did a lot to protect workers, and keep them from being exploited by the bosses. Now, the unions have become conglomerates of their own, and IMO have lost any notion of what the rank and file want.

I am from the north, really the home of the union movement, but I have run into southerners who are virulently anti-union. Maybe they have really great job conditions in the south? Maybe segregation helped them?

(remembers Hoffa, too)

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Post #: 26

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 9:01:16 AM

pahunkboy

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From: Central Pennsylvania
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My 1st job out of college was in management for a manufacturing co- union.

This was in the 80s.   We had a large Polish and Mexico crowd- somehow they all had the same home phone number. lol.

One dude in particular went wild filing official complaints. What it did in his case, is that management knew he was overly vocal- they tuned him out as he was ALWAYS unhappy.

As it turned out- he was the brother of my exes brother. His mom knew the whole time. She just listened. WHat a neat lady she was.

I was back up in personnel which included setting wages of welders. I had to be able to explain why one man got x$ an hour, but another one more $.   I was pretty good at it.   It was hard tho to hire knowing full well- that once the big order was completed these guys would be laid off.

I had a relative work McCormick place- and wow- talk about how this guy cant do this- and that guy cant do this. Alot of money is wasted there.   Tho that can be said about alot of bureacracies.

Hmm.    Micheal Moor made a fild called "Roger and Me".

I am mad that GM killed the EV1.

for years the big 3 were in bed with big oil.   It was a concerted effort. The big 3 presumed big oil would never take down the car industry. Had oil not gone to $4 a gallon-   this day would not be now. They shot them self in the foot.   Cars can get much better mileage then they let on.

It is hard to feel pity- when they arrogently do this to themself.

I do however feel for the workers. I hope the new Asian management gets the plants up and runnning soon.   Im sure Asia could build a car for 5k.   Thats closer to actual wages.

meanwhile all these metros who got used to 4k a year property tax per house, are about to feel a pinch.   in Cook county the 4 year re-assess went to 3 years...all to extract more money.   Here one counties last assessement was 1963, and the other county 1954. Somehow tho if my home was worht $400k- the taxes would be same as a metro. This week the paper said that local taxes will go up 4 mills which brings us to the ceiling per state law.

I can picture people in certain metros walking away from a house based on taxes....

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Post #: 27

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 9:49:04 AM

OrionTheWolf

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~FR~

My only exposure to unions was when I was 18 and loaded trucks for AAFES. After working there for about 4 months I had my job pretty well down pat, and would finish 2.5 hours ahead of what they had listed as production. I would then go help the pickers, sweep floors or whatever needed done to stay busy. I was approached by the shop steward and told I needed to slow down because my numbers were going to make everyone have to work faster and we would get less overtime. I did not work furiously, I worked steady and did not involve myself in the chit chat they had all day long at the end of the loading platform. I left there and went into construction, non-union where I made three times as much money to start, and was able to negotiate better pay because of the production I did.

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Post #: 28

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 10:17:45 AM

RainydayNE

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well alot of people have issues now where the union doesnt actually DO anything for them. they just dig around in their paychecks and take a chunk, call it "dues" and then do nothing
also, unions can be a bit oppressive in the medical profession, where you're usually required to do loads of jobs at once (especially in emergency situations) and the unions attempt to define your job as ONLY THIS and ONLY THAT.

unions aren't always that great anymore.

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Post #: 29

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 10:26:00 AM

Arillis

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A little input from the other side, my grandfather came from the old country and brought with him a trade, work ethics, and job commitments. He became a wealthy man, very wealthy and at one point he my father and a small group of investors built a factory and employed 200 unskilled out of work, men with families. Soon homes and other businesses were springing up around the factory and as business grew so too did the town and number of employees. At one point, they employed over 5,000 people.
At some point a union organizer began speaking with the workforce and a few of the workers spoke with me, (By this time, I had worked in the factory for over ten years at every job in that plant from janitor to plant manager.) so I knew their working conditions and most of the problems they faced.
As conversations continued I simply said you have a right to organize, we pay higher wages then union people in the same industry are paid, and offer far better working conditions and our benefit package is unequalled so I fail to see your reason for organizing, but you have a right to organize.
Shortly thereafter, I notified the State, County, and City of our board and investors intent to eliminate all jobs in that state and of the plants closing. Within 95 days 4,500 people were out of work, they still had the right to organize, and Mexico had a new industry emerging. Now the point is, for three generations we have created employment, risk our dollars and the dollars of the few investors that helped us become operational and will not jeopardize or allow others to restrict our capability to maximize profit and secure continued growth.

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Post #: 30

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 10:37:21 AM

ThundersCry

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I am a member of the BLE/Teamsters...

Your right...because of the union...my 5 children never went without their basic needs being met...

I never forget...that.

Although...I was a breath away from crossing their picket lines ...once

I am glad I didn`t...

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Post #: 31

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 10:59:40 AM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThundersCry

I am a member of the BLE/Teamsters...

Your right...because of the union...my 5 children never went without their basic needs being met...

I never forget...that.

Although...I was a breath away from crossing their picket lines ...once

I am glad I didn`t...

So your saying that if a union job hadn't been available, you would not have been able to feed your children? You really don't think you could have held on to a good job without the aid of a union? Interesting.

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Post #: 32

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 11:11:24 AM

kdsub

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Unions or the threat of unions are good for all workers. It is already happening and it is only a matter of time before the so called third world workers unionise to control the abuse of employers.

Unions will appear where they are needed...they will also be controlled by the market...If they don't work with employers in tough times they will disappear.

It is wrong to arbitrarily say all unions are bad.. It just depends on the situation.

Butch

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Post #: 33

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 11:15:54 AM

meatcleaver

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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweedydaddy

It mostly dates back to early American unions which were dominated by crooks like Hoffa, so a certain level of cynicism can be expected.
Not like our nice British communist militant "let's wreck the industry" lot.
Which is why we no longer exist as manufacturers.
great job our union leaders are doing protecting jobs in the banks, motor industry, and Rolls Royce eh? Makes you proud.
Unions, onions, - both end in tears.

The reason for the decline in the British motor industry is not unlike the problem with the American industry now, they weren't making cars people wanted to buy. In fact the situation was worse in the British car industry, in a ten year period British Leyland didn't have one new model!!!!! That is a management and investment problem. The communists as you might call them actually pointed out that without new models, there wouldn't be an industry. On top of that, the successful models they had, the mini never made a profit because the management didn't know how much it cost to produce it and sold it at a loss most of the time and the Landrover was always under produced, Leyland could have sold about three times the amount they made but the management never thought about increasing the production. Now doesn't that sound like imcompetence? If anything wrecked British industry it was under investment and I don't think that was the job of the union. Renault was having similar problems to British Leyland at the same time so you can see the different results of the two different management and governments strategies were.

In fact I can give you first hand experience. I was working in Holland in the smelting foundry of an Aluminium product company. We were ripping out old equipement and installing new equipement. A British company bought the old equipement (which was obsolete) to install in their Alumium foundry. Some of their British workers came over to help take out the equipement so they knew how to install it back in Britain. We got chatting with the British workers and they were surprised we were earning more than double (nearly triple) their wages with added perks they could only dream of. However, the reason was as obvious to them as it was to us, the Dutch company I worked for out produced the British company by a street and more. It was only a matter of weeks before those British fitters were back in Holland working for the Dutch company. Needless to say, the British company didn't survive Thatcher's recession.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/20/2008 11:20:44 AM >

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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 11:48:18 AM

celticlord2112

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quote:

It is wrong to arbitrarily say all unions are bad.. It just depends on the situation.

If the situation is a free-market economy, then all unions are bad.

Anything that seeks to institutionalize the market power of any participant in the marketplace is a bad idea.

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Post #: 35

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 11:53:51 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
If the situation is a free-market economy, then all unions are bad.

Anything that seeks to institutionalize the market power of any participant in the marketplace is a bad idea.

So the 84 hour work week is fine with you? The company store system is ok with you? You approve of child labor? You also disapporve of corporations? Or is it only organized labor that you disapprove of?

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Post #: 36

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 12:00:07 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

It is wrong to arbitrarily say all unions are bad.. It just depends on the situation.

If the situation is a free-market economy, then all unions are bad.

Anything that seeks to institutionalize the market power of any participant in the marketplace is a bad idea.

Laisez faire capitalism institutionalizes capital as the arbiter of the market so according to you laisez faire capitalism is a bad idea.

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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 12:44:33 PM

SilverMark

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Unions are indeed a much smaller part of the workforce then what they once were. In some ways due to regulation by government they have also seen their usefullness decline. Do not forget that the unions brought change in this country that was sorely needed as they grew. They may very well have out lived their usefullness in a modern economy but, had they not been there when needed the workforce would even today be a bit different. I am conflicted by my thoughts on unions and what purpose they serve today. They have in someways cost themeselves in the eyes of the American public but they have also done a lot of good for their members. The days of Hoffa, Provenzano,Fitzgerald and so on, have seemed to pass and the members for the most part are nothing more than skilled and semi-skilled workers looking for a better life through banding together. I do not find them evil but, I do find them inflexable and they could very well cost the USA the domestic automobile industry as a major employer. I hope they fight for their members but that their members come to realize that something is better than nothing and that the auto industry as we and they know it could quickly end if they do not come to the table to compromise.
edited due to the fact that spell check doesn't work on this pc!

< Message edited by SilverMark -- 11/20/2008 12:51:02 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 1:23:56 PM

Arillis

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Allow me to give you an example of unions, the AFL/CIO and Teamsters.
In an earlier post I spoke of my grandfather coming from the old country, when he and my father began ordering parts from Ford and GM, and steel from plants in Pittsburg, truckers, (Teamsters) and AFL representatives threatened to stop parts and steel from being delivered. My grandfather spoke with friends from the old country who spoke with friends, who spoke with Walter Ruther and Jimmy Hoffa, amazingly, they never again had a problem with getting parts or having them delivered, and they came at remarkably reduced cost. In fact, they somehow would up with government contracts they hadn’t even bid on.
I guess that is called unionism and management working together, or could it be called corruption?

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Post #: 39

RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 2:09:51 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Laisez faire capitalism institutionalizes capital as the arbiter of the market so according to you laisez faire capitalism is a bad idea.

As it does no such thing, your statement has no correlation to reality.

In a free market economy, there are NO arbiters of markets, institutionalized or otherwise.

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Post #: 40

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