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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/21/2008 9:10:34 PM   
KAZVorpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

OK - so what is it that so riles so many Americans about unions?

Is it the notion of labour having any rights?


No, it is because workers DO have rights, and unions violate them. Unions are indeed bad for everyone, but they are the worst on the workers, themselves.

quote:


Is it the idea of labour coming together to demand rights?


It is the idea of the unions forming monopolies that force workers to belong to them, employers to hire them, and consumers to suffer their laughable inefficiency.

quote:


Is it the idea of labour coming together to defend their rights collectively?


It is the idea of the individual workers being formed to clump into impersonal, lowest-common-denominator collectives, when they're better off negotiating with employers based upon their own personal strengths, for their own personal preferences.

quote:


Is it the advancement of rights through collective action?


It is that there is no greater threat to your rights than to be lumped into a collective.



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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/21/2008 9:11:39 PM   
KAZVorpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job.

There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 



Not true.

A fair wage is whatever an employee and an employer both voluntarily agree upon.

(in reply to celticlord2112)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/21/2008 9:15:27 PM   
KAZVorpal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA.

Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet.



And I suppose that's why free markets were rejected in the 19th century.


Elections were rejected in the 2nd century, too.

You need a better retort than a laughable appeal to popularity.

In fact, economic freedom has proven itself the most effective form, whether it was rejected by the greedy, power-grubbing socialists or not.

Where it has been rejected, and to the extent it has, economies have weakened and stagnated.

That is why China is easing into capitalism, now. It is why Sweden was such a pathetic economic shambles in the early nineties. It is why the US is struggling economically, after 8 years of a very interventionist, effectively socialist Bush administration expanding regulations and spending.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/21/2008 9:58:17 PM   
moonvine


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


That would have made a lot of sense about 50 years ago...today we have labor laws to protect workers. So what was that again about 12 year old coal miners? Yea I can see where that is a major problem.


And why do we have labor laws to protect workers?  Because of unions.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 2:57:24 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KAZVorpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112


quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Then why do you insist on promoting free markets as though free markets are the natural state of the world. Free markets is an unnatural state. Markets have never been free and always been up for negotiation, even in the USA.

Because free markets are the most efficient, most equitable, and most benign mode of economic interaction extant. All other modes are destructive to both people and the planet.



And I suppose that's why free markets were rejected in the 19th century.


Elections were rejected in the 2nd century, too.

You need a better retort than a laughable appeal to popularity.

In fact, economic freedom has proven itself the most effective form, whether it was rejected by the greedy, power-grubbing socialists or not.

Where it has been rejected, and to the extent it has, economies have weakened and stagnated.

That is why China is easing into capitalism, now. It is why Sweden was such a pathetic economic shambles in the early nineties. It is why the US is struggling economically, after 8 years of a very interventionist, effectively socialist Bush administration expanding regulations and spending.



You are showing your ignorance in the growth of western capitalism. Western capitalism grew because it controled the markets, not because it competed freely. It was the Empires that provided the west with the wealth and Manifest Destiny was the US equivalent of European empire building. You know, stealing land and resources and controling the markets.

Elections were suppressed by the Christian church in favour of the divine right of kings, the church giving the kings the divine right of course, from where it gained its power. North Germanic (Scandinavia, Britain, N Germany etc.) culture was always democratic in nature in the sense kings were elected. As Christianity lost its potency, the chance was North European democracy was going to reassert itself. 

Also, socialism was born as a reaction to capitalist greed and exploitation and as you will noice, captialism is succeeding in Chine because its people aren't free, in the same way westerners weren't free in during the growth of western capitalism.

People who advocate free markets as beneficial would probably not survive in the them because it is clear they don't understand them and why they were rejected in the first place because they are under an illusion there was a golden age of free markets in the first place.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/22/2008 3:00:33 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 5:01:56 AM   
MontrealPhoenix


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah



My issue with Unions is the Entitlement that is shared among most union workers, they believe they are entitled to more because they joined a Union instead of being entitled to more because they do more. In relaity a union job will take Longer than a Non union job and cost you nearly twice as much, and you could get the exact same workmanship from a NON union company.

But that's just my Opinion, My two cents among a sea of pocket change

Steel


Not necessarily Steel. I work as a secretary in a local hospital and the job is the job. There's no such thing as working slower because tests and appointments need to be booked right away - well as fast as possible given the waiting lists but that's another subject entirely *smiles*.   In comparison, i worked in a private office for two doctors for 7 years. I started at $8/hr and in that time my salary never went up, they could fire me for no reason and i couldn't say boo. I'm thankful for the union i belong to because they support us when we are in a situation which is intolerable. Those two doctors got away with things noone should have to put up with, and i would never go back to working in a private office again.
 
As for out of control wages, which someone mentioned, we have a salary cap, so once that salary is reached, it doesn't matter how many years you work there, it doesn't go up.
 
phoenix

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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 7:35:04 AM   
Maya2001


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From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KAZVorpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job.

There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 



Not true.

A fair wage is whatever an employee and an employer both voluntarily agree upon.



In certain fields/careers  you may be able to negotiate a wage/salary but try to negotiate a fair wage at walmart, a donut shop or factory as an employee  and the employer will laugh in your face and show you the door..those that lack skills or education to  get into higher paying careers are forced to take whatever the employer is willing to pay them if they want a job or whatever the government dictates as minimum wage.




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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 7:43:57 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

quote:

ORIGINAL: KAZVorpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job.

There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 



Not true.

A fair wage is whatever an employee and an employer both voluntarily agree upon.



In certain fields/careers  you may be able to negotiate a wage/salary but try to negotiate a fair wage at walmart, a donut shop or factory as an employee  and the employer will laugh in your face and show you the door..those that lack skills or education to  get into higher paying careers are forced to take whatever the employer is willing to pay them if they want a job or whatever the government dictates as minimum wage.



Of course, which is exactly where unions come in.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 7:51:50 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

How long would those laws stay in place without the opposition from unions to keep the unlimited lobbying dollars of major corporations in check? I really doubt that the unions are doing that much to keep the laws in place. But I do believe they are getting rich convincing people like you that they do.

What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job. 
The minumum wage law already did that and it didn't cost her anything out of her paycheck. 

Or do you think that Meiers would have paid her, out of the goodness of their hearts, the same starting salary that they would have offered to a 45 year-old man with a family to support?  If they are both doing the same job with the same level of experience should they not be paid the same?  
I would hope that a 45 year old man with a family would have more experience than an 18 yr old fresh out of high school. But yes if he has the same experience, then he should be getting the same pay. Why do you think he should earn more? Should he be rewarded for making it to that age without having worked anywhere?



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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 7:55:57 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThundersCry

Did I studder?
 
I would have robbed and pilfered to feed  and care for them if I would have had...to..
 
 




You said because of the union, your 5 children never went without....so do you honestly believe that you could not have taken care of them without the benifit of a union job? I didn't ask how far you would go to take care of them. I just asked if you really thought you could not hold down a job with out the union. Because that is what your original post suggested.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 8:02:41 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: moonvine

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


That would have made a lot of sense about 50 years ago...today we have labor laws to protect workers. So what was that again about 12 year old coal miners? Yea I can see where that is a major problem.


And why do we have labor laws to protect workers?  Because of unions.



That is correct and now that the laws are in place, they have served their purpose. When I get a cut, I put a bandaid on it, when the cut is healed I throw the bandaid away. It no longer serves any purpose, even though at one point it was very important to keep the cut clean.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 8:06:29 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

quote:

ORIGINAL: KAZVorpal

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

What the union was doing for her was making sure she got paid a fair wage instead of being exploited as a naive 18 year-old in her first job.

There is no such thing as a "fair wage". 



Not true.

A fair wage is whatever an employee and an employer both voluntarily agree upon.



In certain fields/careers  you may be able to negotiate a wage/salary but try to negotiate a fair wage at walmart, a donut shop or factory as an employee  and the employer will laugh in your face and show you the door..those that lack skills or education to  get into higher paying careers are forced to take whatever the employer is willing to pay them if they want a job or whatever the government dictates as minimum wage.




Do you feel those people should get the same wage as someone with experience and an education? What exactly do you think is a fair wage for someone out of high school with no experience or skills?

_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 8:15:36 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: moonvine

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi


That would have made a lot of sense about 50 years ago...today we have labor laws to protect workers. So what was that again about 12 year old coal miners? Yea I can see where that is a major problem.


And why do we have labor laws to protect workers?  Because of unions.



That is correct and now that the laws are in place, they have served their purpose. When I get a cut, I put a bandaid on it, when the cut is healed I throw the bandaid away. It no longer serves any purpose, even though at one point it was very important to keep the cut clean.


How naive.

When you've tamed a ferral animal like capitalism, you don't let it go wild again.

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/22/2008 12:56:54 PM   
calamitysandra


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Anybody who has worked for the same company for years should have a high enough income to buy a house.


My Sir was also taken advantage of by a non-union factory. When I found out he only made $8.15/hr after working there for 10 years, I was furious. They should have been paying him him a minimum of $15/hr.


Well, and there lies a problem in my opinion. What somebody earns, and raises to his earnings, should not be determined by time of employment, but by quality of work.

If somebody works for a company for 10 years already, with average productivity, and the new guy is simply better, why should the more senior one earn more?

And I do not belive that there is a right to be able to buy a house, simply because you have worked at the same place for several years. You should be able to buy a house, because the quality of your work has earned you a salary that allows you to do so.


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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/23/2008 6:33:32 AM   
Irishknight


Posts: 2016
Joined: 9/30/2007
Status: offline 		Careful Calamity, you are starting to sound like someone who expects people to be treated according to merit.  I worked in a union factory for a while.  All the union did was spend time campaigning for political candidates, trying to show their big penises and harrassing those who were not members.  We were making a wage that was more than fair and had good benefits.  When contract negotiation time came up, the union wanted to go on strike over getting more paid holidays and getting everyone even more vacation time.  Those of us who were nonunion were threatened even before it came to a vote by various union members.  There wasn't even a picket line to cross and I was told that union members would come vandalize my house and my vehicles. 
I reported the threats through the proper channels (union channels) and they were ignored.  I reported them by stepping around the union and several people got two weeks' suspension without pay for making threats.  Only the union VP stood up publicly against those making threats and that was because he was a friend of mine.
Unions.... I won't ever work for another union plant if I get the choice.  Unions have degraded into monsters that need to go away.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/23/2008 7:09:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl
Anybody who has worked for the same company for years should have a high enough income to buy a house.


My Sir was also taken advantage of by a non-union factory. When I found out he only made $8.15/hr after working there for 10 years, I was furious. They should have been paying him him a minimum of $15/hr.


Well, and there lies a problem in my opinion. What somebody earns, and raises to his earnings, should not be determined by time of employment, but by quality of work.

If somebody works for a company for 10 years already, with average productivity, and the new guy is simply better, why should the more senior one earn more?


Anyone working for a company for ten years should get less money for lack of initiative.

quote:

ORIGINAL: calamitysandra

And I do not belive that there is a right to be able to buy a house, simply because you have worked at the same place for several years. You should be able to buy a house, because the quality of your work has earned you a salary that allows you to do so.



House buying is a cultural thing, a consumerist's suburban wet dream, the seeds of most people's nightmare. A job they don't want but can't leave because they won't be able to afford the house they've spent years throwing money into, a wife they no longer care for or want and a couple of whiney kids and the only escape in sight is the grave.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 11/23/2008 7:11:44 AM >

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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/23/2008 7:26:51 AM   
calamitysandra


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Joined: 3/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight
Careful Calamity, you are starting to sound like someone who expects people to be treated according to merit. 


I know, bad me.


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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/23/2008 10:43:22 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Careful Calamity, you are starting to sound like someone who expects people to be treated according to merit.  I worked in a union factory for a while.  All the union did was spend time campaigning for political candidates, trying to show their big penises and harrassing those who were not members.  We were making a wage that was more than fair and had good benefits.  When contract negotiation time came up, the union wanted to go on strike over getting more paid holidays and getting everyone even more vacation time.  Those of us who were nonunion were threatened even before it came to a vote by various union members.  There wasn't even a picket line to cross and I was told that union members would come vandalize my house and my vehicles. 
I reported the threats through the proper channels (union channels) and they were ignored.  I reported them by stepping around the union and several people got two weeks' suspension without pay for making threats.  Only the union VP stood up publicly against those making threats and that was because he was a friend of mine.
Unions.... I won't ever work for another union plant if I get the choice.  Unions have degraded into monsters that need to go away.

So you took all the benefits and pay the union negotiated but refused to pay the dues and were willing to be a scab and you see no reason that the people responsible for getting you those pay and benefits resented your contempt for them? Shocking.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/23/2008 11:15:54 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Irishknight

Careful Calamity, you are starting to sound like someone who expects people to be treated according to merit.  I worked in a union factory for a while.  All the union did was spend time campaigning for political candidates, trying to show their big penises and harrassing those who were not members.  We were making a wage that was more than fair and had good benefits.  When contract negotiation time came up, the union wanted to go on strike over getting more paid holidays and getting everyone even more vacation time.  Those of us who were nonunion were threatened even before it came to a vote by various union members.  There wasn't even a picket line to cross and I was told that union members would come vandalize my house and my vehicles. 
I reported the threats through the proper channels (union channels) and they were ignored.  I reported them by stepping around the union and several people got two weeks' suspension without pay for making threats.  Only the union VP stood up publicly against those making threats and that was because he was a friend of mine.
Unions.... I won't ever work for another union plant if I get the choice.  Unions have degraded into monsters that need to go away.

So you took all the benefits and pay the union negotiated but refused to pay the dues and were willing to be a scab and you see no reason that the people responsible for getting you those pay and benefits resented your contempt for them? Shocking.


Ditto. None union people love the benefits unions got them. If it wasn't for unions people would still be earning a carrot and a bucket of shit a day.

And not shit you can smoke.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/23/2008 11:44:26 AM   
MidMichCowboy


Posts: 665
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		Nope, I'm going to stay out of it.
I'm not going to tell how Unions should work for the good of the workers. But that they have been corrupted by working more for the poor performers who endanger the rest of the workers. They should look out for the people who want to do a good job and make sure they are treated fair.
I'm not going to talk about owners who have decided paper profits are good and have given up rights and responsibilities to techno managers who are now fleecing them and the workers. Who wants to invest long term and take responsibility anyway.
Then there are the techno-managers. They are the folks who make millions in salary and bonuses, even when they don't perform. They make poor decisions but appoint board members who will back them. They refuse to be subject to stock holder approval of their salaries or bonuses. They have golden parachutes to protect them from actually having to perform.
The whole system is screwed up. Capitalism that is unrestrained does not work. There is no free trade. It's all special interests that are trying to take advantage of each other.
The system in the US has failed. Now, we need to find the mixture that works. We need to realize that paper profits are phony. People need to be accountable for their work and take some pride into it. We need to be a nation that produces not lives off paper transactions.

But, I'm staying out of limited discussion that don't look at the whole situation.

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Profile   Post #: 100
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