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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 2:21:00 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		Well the unions are losing their power  and the result is the loss of manufacturing jobs and the cutting of wages

Unions are not just in the plants  fighting   they are also working at the political .. they were there trying to oppose the free trade agreements but lost thus allowing industry to move work out of the country and allowed them to start undermining the workers bit by bit 

the Big 3 are  hiring slaves or trying to they want the workers working harder faster and longer hours and will farm out lighter duty work out of the plants  doing this means the older  or injured workers are suddenly no longer able to keep up to lines and forced out of their jobs  and out their full retirements  and have to go to Sickness and Accident benefits  which is insurance paid not company paid   .. which  robs the worker out of their full pension and also  saves the companys  and those workers are not replaced  with  with new workers  because the work continues to get farm out of the plants to be partly assembled and built elsewhere and if they are running a 2 shift operation  they can tack 2 hours on a day as mandatory OT  and run voluntary on a weekend and save themselves from hiring 600 or more workers and paying benefits for those workers..this is an issue the unions also try to fight at the political level  but the lose because who is the government??-- the people so many of which who do the not have the exposure to what is happening in the manufacturering sector and those became anti union due to what happened in past history  --with no knowledge of the struggles the unions are facing today or what they are fighting for  

In Canada  I ended up  watching to my pleasure  many unions pull together  to stand up and fight a back door deal between GM and the Ontario Conservatives that were in power at the time  that would have allowed industry to cut about  a 1/3 or more of the workforce by  upping the standard 40 hour week to 52 hours and then allowing another 16 hours of mandatory overtime to be scheduled  a week which would allow company the basically run an extra shift with out hiring any workers . or totally cut a shift or workers and still put out the same amount work  and also greater unemployment...unfortunately they do not pull together enough  and they try to follow the america pattern instead of the european pattern  of unionism

if you look at some of the countries that have the best pensions, shortest work weeks , earliest retirements, as well as the most prospertity  ..they also are the ones with the strongest unions  ... and they are not in North America , they are  countries such as switzerland, norway, denmark, finland , scandanavia,  sweden , belgium, france stc





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RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 3:24:02 PM   
ScooterTrash


Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

Well the unions are losing their power  and the result is the loss of manufacturing jobs and the cutting of wages


Having been raised with both parents UAW workers I have to completely disagree with that being why the manufacturing jobs are gone. The reason manufacturing jobs have been outsourced and now currently leaving the shores to go overseas is indirectly because of the unions. Had they lost their power sooner, North American automotive plants would have been much better off. Certainly wages and benefits would not have been so outlandish, but that was primarily the problem. Wages and benefits drove the major automotive manufactures to start outsourcing because they could buy product cheaper than produce it. I know this to be true because this whole ordeal caused a giant falling out in my family (which was all UAW workers but me) because I work for a company that manufactures outsourced products for the North American automotive market (which includes not only the big 3, but Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.). Had the UAW not pushed so hard to provide ridiculous wages for meager unskilled jobs, they would still be manufacturing in-house, but companies such as mine flourished because of it. As it stands, the UAW has managed to create a situation where many, if not most of their members will not only NOT be enjoying a better quality of life, but they will be scrambling just to eek out a living. Oh yeah...and in the city which my parents, sister and her husband used to work; Delco is completely shut down, most of the plants (there were more than 11) have either been bulldozed or are in total disrepair. Guide Lamp which also was huge, is more the size of a job shop now, than a large corporation. Luckily all my family retired prior to GMs demise in that town. Once apon a time the unions were needed, but they pushed too far and if it keep going the way it is going, they won't have anyone to represent in the future. Don't tell me UAW is a good thing, I know better and I heard enough stories growing up I made the choice to never work in a union shop....apparently a good move, I'm still employed.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 4:07:06 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

Well the unions are losing their power  and the result is the loss of manufacturing jobs and the cutting of wages


Having been raised with both parents UAW workers I have to completely disagree with that being why the manufacturing jobs are gone. The reason manufacturing jobs have been outsourced and now currently leaving the shores to go overseas is indirectly because of the unions. Had they lost their power sooner, North American automotive plants would have been much better off. Certainly wages and benefits would not have been so outlandish, but that was primarily the problem. Wages and benefits drove the major automotive manufactures to start outsourcing because they could buy product cheaper than produce it. I know this to be true because this whole ordeal caused a giant falling out in my family (which was all UAW workers but me) because I work for a company that manufactures outsourced products for the North American automotive market (which includes not only the big 3, but Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.). Had the UAW not pushed so hard to provide ridiculous wages for meager unskilled jobs, they would still be manufacturing in-house, but companies such as mine flourished because of it. As it stands, the UAW has managed to create a situation where many, if not most of their members will not only NOT be enjoying a better quality of life, but they will be scrambling just to eek out a living. Oh yeah...and in the city which my parents, sister and her husband used to work; Delco is completely shut down, most of the plants (there were more than 11) have either been bulldozed or are in total disrepair. Guide Lamp which also was huge, is more the size of a job shop now, than a large corporation. Luckily all my family retired prior to GMs demise in that town. Once apon a time the unions were needed, but they pushed too far and if it keep going the way it is going, they won't have anyone to represent in the future. Don't tell me UAW is a good thing, I know better and I heard enough stories growing up I made the choice to never work in a union shop....apparently a good move, I'm still employed.

Funny how GM has shifted so much production to Canada, where the UAW is even stronger due to actually enforced fair labor laws, if any of your claims were accurate.

GM USA is failing because they absolutely refuse to spend money on engineering innovations, they actually produced a breakthrough vehicle (EV-1) but intentionally killed it and sold the vital patent, or in modern manufacturing facilities in the US. The problem lies in the families living in Grosse Point who hate the UAW as a matter of course and will do anything to ruin Flint who provide virtually all of GM's executives.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 4:16:51 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
If the situation is a free-market economy, then all unions are bad.

Anything that seeks to institutionalize the market power of any participant in the marketplace is a bad idea.

So the 84 hour work week is fine with you? The company store system is ok with you? You approve of child labor? You also disapporve of corporations? Or is it only organized labor that you disapprove of?


That's what the labor laws are for. You have heard of labor laws right?

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 4:19:17 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ScooterTrash

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

Well the unions are losing their power  and the result is the loss of manufacturing jobs and the cutting of wages


Having been raised with both parents UAW workers I have to completely disagree with that being why the manufacturing jobs are gone. The reason manufacturing jobs have been outsourced and now currently leaving the shores to go overseas is indirectly because of the unions. Had they lost their power sooner, North American automotive plants would have been much better off. Certainly wages and benefits would not have been so outlandish, but that was primarily the problem. Wages and benefits drove the major automotive manufactures to start outsourcing because they could buy product cheaper than produce it. I know this to be true because this whole ordeal caused a giant falling out in my family (which was all UAW workers but me) because I work for a company that manufactures outsourced products for the North American automotive market (which includes not only the big 3, but Honda, Nissan, Toyota, etc.). Had the UAW not pushed so hard to provide ridiculous wages for meager unskilled jobs, they would still be manufacturing in-house, but companies such as mine flourished because of it. As it stands, the UAW has managed to create a situation where many, if not most of their members will not only NOT be enjoying a better quality of life, but they will be scrambling just to eek out a living. Oh yeah...and in the city which my parents, sister and her husband used to work; Delco is completely shut down, most of the plants (there were more than 11) have either been bulldozed or are in total disrepair. Guide Lamp which also was huge, is more the size of a job shop now, than a large corporation. Luckily all my family retired prior to GMs demise in that town. Once apon a time the unions were needed, but they pushed too far and if it keep going the way it is going, they won't have anyone to represent in the future. Don't tell me UAW is a good thing, I know better and I heard enough stories growing up I made the choice to never work in a union shop....apparently a good move, I'm still employed.

Funny how GM has shifted so much production to Canada, where the UAW is even stronger due to actually enforced fair labor laws, if any of your claims were accurate.

GM USA is failing because they absolutely refuse to spend money on engineering innovations, they actually produced a breakthrough vehicle (EV-1) but intentionally killed it and sold the vital patent, or in modern manufacturing facilities in the US. The problem lies in the families living in Grosse Point who hate the UAW as a matter of course and will do anything to ruin Flint who provide virtually all of GM's executives.


Those bastards.....I live close to GP, do you want me to run over and kill a few for ya. After all those poor execs in Flint are about to be ruined and it's all because of those bastards. I wonder if they have any clue how powerful they are?

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 4:43:36 PM   
Legman1


Posts: 25
Joined: 8/3/2006
Status: offline 		God forbid a working man would want a living wage. That means a wage he can live on here in America. Not  Asia. not Mexico.
It doesn't matter what he's doing, a grown man needs a grown wage and he's got every right to demand it for his time.
More and more i'm thinking if a products  not made here there should be a huge tax on it to make it even with what it costs to make it here.

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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 4:44:56 PM   
DedicatedDom40


Posts: 350
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		In the current automaker troubles, I do think the unions are being scapegoated.

We are to blame for demanding inefficient cars and thus making them more profitable via price markup to the auto companies, so I cant blame corporate decisions that led to producing the big cars.  They were simply following the profit.

I blame politicians that have NAFTA'd this country, thus taking millions of US autobuyers out of the new car market. NAFTA has chronically proven to be better for shareholders and residents of foreign countries far more than producing any value to residents of this country.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 4:55:28 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

That would have made a lot of sense about 50 years ago...today we have labor laws to protect workers. So what was that again about 12 year old coal miners? Yea I can see where that is a major problem.


Then apparently you didn't read the post I was responding to, which was a general indictment of unionization as a whole.  So what happened 50 years ago or 100 years ago is relevant. 

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 4:56:38 PM   
toledotpeslave


Posts: 32
Joined: 11/10/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus


I am from the north, really the home of the union movement, but I have run into southerners who are virulently anti-union.  Maybe they have really great job conditions in the south?  Maybe segregation helped them?




Detroit is the most segregated city in the US, and arguably the world. It is a real union "utopia".

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 4:57:14 PM   
DedicatedDom40


Posts: 350
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Legman1
That means a wage he can live on here in America. Not Asia. not Mexico.


I do agree with this. 

When I look outside my front door, I see houses up and down my street that depict a standard of living that is much higher than these countries that are now stealing our jobs.  People who live in houses like ours simply cannot ever compete on price with people who live in mud huts, and the American politicians who first came up with the idea that its okay for us to attempt to compete should be lined up and shot, for they are gutting the standard of living in this country. How does any politician rationalize that residents of 300K homes can afford to compete on price with occupants of tin shacks without our own houses "growing tin". How do they rationalize that "growing tin" is better for the average american household?

The excellent post-war wealth distribution patterns of the 50s, 60s and 70s was not accomplished by laws that created an abundance of Chevy sales in India.  So why do we, all of a sudden, think selling Chevys in India is the path to personal betterment now?

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 5:04:46 PM   
toledotpeslave


Posts: 32
Joined: 11/10/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


GM USA is failing because they absolutely refuse to spend money on engineering innovations, they actually produced a breakthrough vehicle (EV-1) but intentionally killed it and sold the vital patent, or in modern manufacturing facilities in the US. The problem lies in the families living in Grosse Point who hate the UAW as a matter of course and will do anything to ruin Flint who provide virtually all of GM's executives.


The EV1 (Impact) was a dead end, regardless of how a slick documentary convinced some otherwise.

GM has put all their money into the Volt, and that is probably going to cost them (or us, the taxpayers) billions for a 40k car that is 20k overpriced for the market.

Why would you hate those in Grosse Pointe so much because they didn't go the blue collar route through life? If things are so rosey on the other side of Alter Rd., why don't you move there and buy a house for 3k with 4k in property taxes a year.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 5:25:31 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
If the situation is a free-market economy, then all unions are bad.

Anything that seeks to institutionalize the market power of any participant in the marketplace is a bad idea.

So the 84 hour work week is fine with you? The company store system is ok with you? You approve of child labor? You also disapporve of corporations? Or is it only organized labor that you disapprove of?


That's what the labor laws are for. You have heard of labor laws right?


Again, you seem to be missing the point.

Why were those labor laws enacted? 

Oh, never mind, I remember.

The companies that were making immense profits suddenly realized the error of their ways and, seemingly unable to control their own greed and in a fit of remorse, pleaded with Congress to pass laws to control them before they were allowed to exploit again.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 9:06:01 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: toledotpeslave


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


GM USA is failing because they absolutely refuse to spend money on engineering innovations, they actually produced a breakthrough vehicle (EV-1) but intentionally killed it and sold the vital patent, or in modern manufacturing facilities in the US. The problem lies in the families living in Grosse Point who hate the UAW as a matter of course and will do anything to ruin Flint who provide virtually all of GM's executives.


The EV1 (Impact) was a dead end, regardless of how a slick documentary convinced some otherwise.

GM has put all their money into the Volt, and that is probably going to cost them (or us, the taxpayers) billions for a 40k car that is 20k overpriced for the market.

Why would you hate those in Grosse Pointe so much because they didn't go the blue collar route through life? If things are so rosey on the other side of Alter Rd., why don't you move there and buy a house for 3k with 4k in property taxes a year.


The EV1 was a dead end? Really? How many could they have sold in the last 10 years? How many Prius, a much less desirable car for urban dwellers like myself, have been sold in that time?

I don't hate anyone in Grosse Point but I am a student of history and know which side of Alter Rd. the blame for GM's failure lies on.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 10:31:10 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

OK - so what is it that so riles so many Americans about unions?

Is it the notion of labour having any rights?

Is it the idea of labour coming together to demand rights?

Is it the idea of labour coming together to defend their rights collectively?

Is it the advancement of rights through collective action?

Or is it "other"?

E



          Definitely 'other,' LadyE.  Nice bit of neutral, non-inflammatory rhetoric in the multiple choice...


       I don't like what they have become.  I think a lot of the public employee unions, starting with teachers, should be abolished as anything but advisory spokesholes.  The same mistakes that are bringing down GM & co. are happening all over again among our public employees.  Think property taxes are bad now?  Wait until the guy who cleans the bathrooms at the park retires at 55 with full medical and 75% of his salary, after 20-30 years of being the best paid toilet scrubber in town. 

     

    

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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 11:23:03 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DedicatedDom40

In the current automaker troubles, I do think the unions are being scapegoated.

We are to blame for demanding inefficient cars and thus making them more profitable via price markup to the auto companies, so I cant blame corporate decisions that led to producing the big cars.  They were simply following the profit.

I blame politicians that have NAFTA'd this country, thus taking millions of US autobuyers out of the new car market. NAFTA has chronically proven to be better for shareholders and residents of foreign countries far more than producing any value to residents of this country.



Good post.
If companies paid decent wages and benefits there wouldn't be any "need" for Unions would there?
My uncle owned a small trucking company and he paid whatever wages and benefits that the Union truckers paid just to keep the Teamsters out of his company so  Unions benefited his employees.
And we're talking about the infamous "Local 25!"
I think it's a "good" thing for people to make a good week's pay!
People who make $40 an hour buy houses, cars, furniture, appliances and all kinds of other things. And that's good for the economy.
People who make $10 an hour don't buy much of anything.
DES, plumbers here in S.C. get $60 an hour.
Where did you find a Plumber in NYC for $30 an hour?
It's funny, people who think that $60 an hour is "too much" for someone's labor don't think $200 per hour is "too much" for a Lawyer's labor.
Lawyers are a dime a ton these days, try and get a Plumber!
Or any other person who sits at a desk, it's "O.K." for them to make $500 per hour but "not O.K." for a laborer to make $50 an hour?

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/20/2008 11:32:41 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yeah, I have to agree that teacher's unions are out of control in this country and our education system is suffering because of it.  Tenure is insane for teachers who don't publish--and how many of your kids' public-school teachers ever publish?  I'm not at all in the "Unions are at fault for the automobile industry's collapse" camp, but some unions have been truly destructive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mc1234

Other.

Here's an example:  Because of the incredibly strong teacher's union in our state, a teacher is 'tenured' after three years of teaching at one school and can NEVER be fired unless they've like tacklegroped a student in the hallway AND made a death threat.  Which keeps poor teachers in the system with very little recourse for disciplinary actions.  Or when teachers go on strike - that makes me nuts.

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/21/2008 12:59:04 AM   
TexasFlyer


Posts: 7
Joined: 11/20/2008
Status: offline 		Im kind of confused by some of the statements that "Management has all the cards" and "Management calls the shots"... Isn't that exactly why they are management? Labor labors and Management manages??? Chief says get buffalo, braves go hunting.. General says hit that beach Marines hit the beach... Picard says second star on the right, engage and the helmsman  does it...  

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/21/2008 1:11:05 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Laisez faire capitalism institutionalizes capital as the arbiter of the market so according to you laisez faire capitalism is a bad idea.

As it does no such thing, your statement has no correlation to reality.

In a free market economy, there are NO arbiters of markets, institutionalized or otherwise.


So what are monopolies and why does the most capitalist country in the world regulate against them? Monopolies are almost always formed in an unregulated market.

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/21/2008 1:14:37 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasFlyer

Im kind of confused by some of the statements that "Management has all the cards" and "Management calls the shots"... Isn't that exactly why they are management? Labor labors and Management manages??? Chief says get buffalo, braves go hunting.. General says hit that beach Marines hit the beach... Picard says second star on the right, engage and the helmsman  does it...  


But isnt that there - right there, the problem with the situation youre describing?

The braves obey the chief or they get their arse kicked
The marines obey the general or they get shot for disobeying an order in wartime
The helmsman engages or faces a charge (presumably) or gets to walk home

Your examples in other words all have compulsion as the motivating force. There is no need to possess greater foresight or other ability or skill, if youre wearing a suit. And to be honest, I have found that most of those wearing the suits are pretty clueless, straight from college types who fall in line with the ethos of whatever company it is - generally a poor ethos - to advance their earnings, er sorry, career.

If the labour market were left to the same principles then certainly no one's going to be beaten up, shot or take a walk in the vacuum, but starvation and homelessness have exactly the same effects.

And add to that the crappy, god-awful, incompetent, greedy, lazy and stupid nature of certainly upper management as it comes to marketing, and who's to say they have any better view of what's to be done to plan for next year let alone for the future?

The only workable solutions I see for the future are to withdraw from global agreements that rob our children of their future even as we their parents fall into poverty, and for the economy to be rebuilt on the basis of manufacturing, run by workers' cooperatives.

E

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: what is it about unions? - 11/21/2008 6:27:11 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
If the labour market were left to the same principles then certainly no one's going to be beaten up, shot

In the US those things were very common in labor/management disagreements. Look into Haymarket riots, Mother Jones and the GM sit down strikefor examples.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 60
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