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RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:11:27 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Not trying to be "one true way" at all.
 
Its not "one true wayism" if its fact.

quote:

 
I'm just trying to figure out why, if indeed you are an "all encompassing" submissive for lack of a better term....why you would need to declare yourself as "service oriented". In the post that started me thinking, the submissive who caught my attention seemed to be geared to overall submission....yet she further defined herself as service oriented. So that got me to thinking.....which is usually always a dangerous thing where I am concerned.

Because people tend to identify with specific things more than general things, its another law of human behavior.  For example... someone likes ice cream... that's a general thing.  That same person will have a favorite kind of ice cream... that's a specific.  Let's say this person likes chocolate ice cream.  Give them a group of different kinds of chocolate ice creams and I guarantee you they will pick one as their favorite.

Same happens with forms of submission.  Even someone who is generally submissive in all areas will typically find one form or category more rewarding.  Take that category and they'll further find one subset within it more rewarding.  For example, a pleasure slave enjoys fetish and sex more than other forms of submission.  Question them further and you'll find they have favorite fetishes and forms of sex... narrow that group down and they start picking out specific acts.  A service oriented submissive might indicate they like cooking more than cleaning... they find that more rewarding even though they find all forms of service more rewarding than other forms of submission.  Question them still further and they might say they like baking best, or preparing formal meals, or pastries, etc. best.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:22:07 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Not trying to be "one true way" at all. I'm just trying to figure out why, if indeed you are an "all encompassing" submissive for lack of a better term....why you would need to declare yourself as "service oriented". In the post that started me thinking, the submissive who caught my attention seemed to be geared to overall submission....yet she further defined herself as service oriented. So that got me to thinking.....which is usually always a dangerous thing where I am concerned.


OK hon, I'm on lots of vicadin and very little sleep so I may have misinterpreted. I see your point now. I think I was reading it backwards, as if wondering why people would only be service oriented rather than all encompassing. Thanks for clearing it up. :)

And yes, maybe it's like kyra said - those who submit across the board might get particularly good feelings when doing certain things, and not others. For myself, I love love love to cook, and get a thrill cooking for people I love - friends, family, lovers, whatever. I am not particularly fond of laundry, but I'll do both, of course. I don't refer to myself as a kitchen sub, though. As mentioned, that would feel too limiting.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:25:05 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I think I was reading it backwards


Oh hell, maybe I wrote it backwards...LOL. It's not like it would be the first time!

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:26:35 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		Padriag, I just love the way you explain things!



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:30:18 AM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VampiresLair

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
If you do classify yourself as a service oriented submissive, does that mean that your service is your focus? Can you be a service oriented submissive if sex or play is a high priority for you? Can you be a service oriented submissive if love is your dynamic or goal? I guess what I am asking is if service oriented submission is a seperate thing....or is it only one aspect of most submissives?


I classify a sub as service oriented if service is their primary goal in working with me. If I have dishes to do, vacuuming and mopping that needs done and all they are concerned with is getting to play, they are not service oriented.  Fox is service oriented. He has his set of chores and they are always done first and foremost without having to be prompted to do them constantly. Playtime is at my discretion and he does not hint at it more than once in a blue moon. We are all human, after all. However, he makes sure that the domestic duties he is responsible for are taken care of.  In my experience I would class the vast majority of 24/7 sub/slaves as service oriented rather than play oriented.

My 2 cents
DV



Hey there DV...
i dont know fox and i dont know if he is service oriented or not, per se, but i know that in my relationships, if my sexual or play needs are met, i dont feel the need to hint at getting it...i am content in the knowledge that when he is ready to play, none of the other things...like unfinished tasks will get in the way of playing. If im asked to do something or something is expected of me, i dont automatically think..."oh, i better do this or that or i wont get this or that in exchange."...i just do whatever was asked and take pride in that the job was done to the best of my ability.
im willing to bet, based soley on your posts, that he is secure in the knowledge that his needs will be met with you at his core...so without that to worry about he has time to make the house the way that most pleases you. Its a testament to the quality of your relationship with him that he doesnt have to hint around...perhaps in his heart he has faith that you will be giving him what he needs at some point, so hes not worried about it.

Just a random thought
perse

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to VampiresLair)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:35:36 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
I think I was reading it backwards


Oh hell, maybe I wrote it backwards...LOL. It's not like it would be the first time!


Hahaha, do two backwards make a forwards?

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:42:11 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i see something that needs to be done, and i simply do.  doesnt matter if its at work or at home.  im still lost on the ~expectation of reward~

if you mean monetary.. nope.
if you mean sexual... again no
if you mean a kind word or a smile or a "thank you".. why not?  i find it hard to believe someone who is service oriented doesnt want to at least feel their efforts are recognized.

can someone take two minutes and explain the reward aspect to me?

Okay... here's the short version.

A reward is any stimulus that makes us feel good or satisfied.  Some things are natural rewards, like food when we are hungry.  Other things are conditioned rewards, things we learn are satisfying through experience.  For example, some people find hip hop music satisfying, others can't stand it... for some it is a conditioned reward, for others it is not.

Some people find reward in performing service, this is a conditioned or learned reward.  Just doing something constructive or helpful makes them feel good about themselves... there's the reward.  In this case the reward is internalized, in otherwords nobody has to give them anything for them to feel satisfied, performing the task itself is its own reward.  Not everyone is like this, some would only perform service if they were given a reward, for example... someone who does their job just for the money, but doesn't particularly enjoy the job.  That's an example of someone doing something for an external reward (the paycheck).  Usually the difference is simply experience... in one case past experience taught an individual to find performing service rewarding, in the later case the person's past experience did not teach them this.


just to add to this....

External rewards have in general a deminishing return to them.  For example... today you are rewarded with pay to your job.  You recieve a raise and are all happy and content. In time you find that the reward is less significant and you begin to want that raise again.  In time, you might find that the standard raise will be an inadequate amount as well. 

Internal rewards are by far the most effective long-term motivating force for people.  You can cultivate internal rewards within a person... but it is not easy.  Secondly... as another note... external rewards actually can damage internal rewards.  It is not a wise thing to external reward someone that generally has internal rewards for those behaviors.  It's very much like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:43:43 AM   
mistoferin


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Joined: 10/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida
Hahaha, do two backwards make a forwards?


You really have had a lot of Vicodin!

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:46:42 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
It is not a wise thing to external reward someone that generally has internal rewards for those behaviors.  It's very much like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.


I think that you make a good point. However, I wonder if you include things like positive praise in the external reward category. Would you consider it wrong to reward a job well done with "great job" or "good girl"?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:50:45 AM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Something that I saw on the "Chores as a test" thread on the Ask a Submissive board caught my attention. I didn't want to hijack thread so I thought I'd come here and ask. What, in your opinion, would differentiate a submissive as a service oriented submissive from any other submissive? If you do classify yourself as a service oriented submissive, does that mean that your service is your focus? Can you be a service oriented submissive if sex or play is a high priority for you? Can you be a service oriented submissive if love is your dynamic or goal? I guess what I am asking is if service oriented submission is a seperate thing....or is it only one aspect of most submissives?


erin...
i was wondering about service subs the other day while discussing the house sub program our group has instituted in our space. i was told to apply if i was service oriented. i was confused and have kind of been thinking about it off and on since then.
As im all unowned and whatnot, i wonder what type of sub ill be when im all growed up...and i dont understand the core difference.
In my mind, the duties i would be asked to perform are already duties i do now on my own...if we are talking cooking or housework or whatever activities of daily life everyone does in general. i dont know that i would even need to be told or instructed or asked to do those things. i think i would just take on those duties automatically. Isnt that different from my past relationships that were live in...
At the dungeon, i stay after close and help clean up. im not on the board or whatever (have only a vague idea of what that is)...i stay and clean up as i would if i were to someones home and would stay and help clean up after a party...its only polite. But i have a relationship with a lot of the members of said club and when im there i feel a pull to do that. i dont stay after our meal, if we are out at a restaurant and do the dishes we dirtied...i dont have a dishwashing or sweeping fetish. i dont even particularly enjoy those duties in general. i get thanked during the cleaning up phase and at first, the woman who is in charge of the kitchen area was confused at my presence in there after hours...but i shrugged off the thanks and just kept coming back to do it as able, until it was no longer odd to see me there. Speeds up the closing process and gets us all home earlier. Just doing my part.
Wouldnt those things be just doing my part in a live in relationship anyway? To me, they would, but of the couples that i know, it is there too...just another part of life.
Are there situations where this is not the case? i guess there would have to be...but i have yet to see one.
What do you consider to be the difference between a service oriented submissive and a pleasure oriented submissive? i think im misunderstanding the core of the conversation.
Thank you for your time.

perse

Oh, heres something else...we had a sit down Thanksgiving meal where the house subs served the diners...i didnt read the email very closely and didnt volunteer to serve. i was sooo uncomfortable when i was seated and served, that over the course of my meal, i ended up in the kitchen about 100 times, getting this or that for members of my table...apologising if i was asking for something from one of the servers...it was just the most surreal meal i ever had. i couldnt even hold up my end of any conversation at the table, so distracted was i that i was in the wrong place, doing the wrong thing. What the heck was that while we are on the subject?
Thanks again.

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:50:49 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Padriag, I just love the way you explain things!

Heh... I'm glad someone does.  Most of the time I get the feeling 2/3 of what I say is never really understood.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:52:54 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		The service oriented slaves I have been involved with or owned had two driving forces. Fikrstly to be owned and to be found pleasing. Secondly to take pride in their domestic duties. I agree with KoM in that internal rewards and the recognition by their owner/s of a job well done is the best reward. That intimacy or sexual pleasure may become involved in the dynamic is a bonus as is BDSM. I have a good friend who ownd a male and female slaves. The slaves are man and wife and both are service only slaves. The home runs well and is a happy home with their owner getting his sexual rocks off with a girlfriend who is gradiually being taiught the ways of his lifestyle, slavery and BDSM.. 

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:57:42 AM   
treyas


Posts: 12
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline 		i am the hung 48 master

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 7:59:44 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I think that you make a good point. However, I wonder if you include things like positive praise in the external reward category. Would you consider it wrong to reward a job well done with "great job" or "good girl"?


There is a common mispreceptions that great job or good girl comments are never bad... the truth is they can be counter productve in situitions that a person is not seeking those kinds of external rewards.   When a person is internally rewarded... a good approach is to actually recogize that internal motivation... IE..." you really enjoy doing that don't you?"   When you dealing with internal motivation things.. the approach is to ask how they feel about doing it.. what motivates them etc.... learn from them.  They will feel known, understood and appreicated by the person... but it is not giving them a reward.    Of course.. you don't want to use this approach everytime... very rarely actually.  Sometime the best thing you can do... is give such individuals the opportunity to do those things that they enjoy... you will often notice a distinct change in their mood at those occassions.


_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 8:04:01 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
It is not a wise thing to external reward someone that generally has internal rewards for those behaviors.  It's very much like killing the goose that lays the golden eggs.


I think that you make a good point. However, I wonder if you include things like positive praise in the external reward category. Would you consider it wrong to reward a job well done with "great job" or "good girl"?

It would be a bad idea to do it all the time.  When you give a reward every time a specific behavior occurs, an expectation of that reward builds and has negative consequences if the reward does not occur after the behavior.  Instead, its better to provide the reward frequently enough to encourage the behavior, but randomly enough not to build the expectation.

More interestingly, if as part of the process a submissive it not only praised, but shown the positive aspects of their behavior (whatever that might be)... and over time the praise is reduced... what's left is the identification of how the behavior itself is good... and that causes the reward to internalize.  For example, lets say you want to teach a kid to brush their teeth.  At first you might praise them and only let them have treats on the condition they have first brushed their teeth.  That encourages the behavior because brushing their teeth is being rewarded.  Over time you stop giving treats for brushing their behavior and you praise them less.  The behavior may endure out of habit but it won't be very strongly ingrained and can be eliminated by other conditions fairly easily.  If, however, after the child brushes their teeth you tell them how nice their teeth look, have them look at their teeth, describe or ask how clean their teeth feel, etc.  These build internal rewards, the child will continue brushing their teeth as an adult because it is now satisfying to brush their teeth in itself... praise or treats are no longer necessary.

The same can be done with submissive behavior.  Want to teach a submissive to be a good house keeper... start by teaching them exactly what the dominant wants done... what does "clean the house" mean specifically.  Next, reward that behavior with praise and other rewards (what rewards would depend on the individual submissive and what they respond to... bring us back to understanding their "orientation").  During the process, reduce the frequency and intensity of these rewards, while at the same time pointing out the positives of having cleaned the house (how good it looks, how comfortable it makes the house seem, how much it impresses others, etc.) so that the submissive begins feeling satisfaction in the behavior itself.  Over time this internalizes the reward, so that praise and other rewards are no longer necessary... the submissive now cleans because it "feels good" to do so.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 8:16:05 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline 		Perse... what we are talking about are the inclinations that already exist in a person... but expressed in the context of submission.  From what you describe, you do sound like a service oriented submissive.  Here's why... you take pleasure (are rewarded by) acts of service in and of themselves.  As a result you are motivated to do these things on your own initiative... you don't often have to be told or otherwise rewarded to do them.

To give you a contrast, someone more obedience oriented would want to be trained to provide those same services and would not show much initiative until that had occurred.  For them, they feel rewarded by the training itself (probably more specifically the attention involved).  Someone control oriented might do a very good job of performing service, but only when told (and in some cases only when "forced" to do so), for them the reward is in feeling control exerted over them.

Does that help?

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to persephonee)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 8:16:58 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: persephonee
At the dungeon, i stay after close and help clean up. im not on the board or whatever (have only a vague idea of what that is)...i stay and clean up as i would if i were to someones home and would stay and help clean up after a party...its only polite. But i have a relationship with a lot of the members of said club and when im there i feel a pull to do that. i dont stay after our meal, if we are out at a restaurant and do the dishes we dirtied...i dont have a dishwashing or sweeping fetish. i dont even particularly enjoy those duties in general. i get thanked during the cleaning up phase and at first, the woman who is in charge of the kitchen area was confused at my presence in there after hours...but i shrugged off the thanks and just kept coming back to do it as able, until it was no longer odd to see me there. Speeds up the closing process and gets us all home earlier. Just doing my part.
Wouldnt those things be just doing my part in a live in relationship anyway?


perse you hit on what is most probably the base of my confusion. As an example that is along the lines of your own, this Saturday we attended a play party. Well, the day of the party the hostess became ill and was not present for the party. Her Master, as he was informing me of her illness, asked me if I could lend a hand getting the food and whatnot set up when people arrived with it. I was already ahead of him and was already in "help" mode by the time he asked. There was a need, I filled it....just as I would hope that someone else would do should it ever be me as the ill hostess. So I just automatically took over what would have been her duties had she been there...taking care of the food and checking in on her Master and offering to serve him food and drink or asking him if he needed any assistance. After the party was over I stayed and packaged leftovers and cleaned the kitchen.

When we left Sir hugged me and told me that he was really proud of the way that I just stepped up to the plate to help. It was nice to hear him say so but to be really honest it also kind of shocked me a bit. I didn't feel like I had done anything extraordinary...just what needed to be done. I don't think that I would specifically classify myself as "service oriented" though because that's just how I am without thought. If I see something that needs doing...it's just normal for me to do it. It's not like I go through some thought process about how I want to do it because I get something personally from doing it...I just don't even think about it at all.

Oh and your dinner example....I have a really hard time getting through any function where some people are serving or working to make everyone else comfortable....and I'm not one of the "active" ones.



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to persephonee)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 8:19:30 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

...Not trying to be "one true way" at all. I'm just trying to figure out why, if indeed you are an "all encompassing" submissive for lack of a better term....why you would need to declare yourself as "service oriented"...


erin,
 
it's merely a guess, but perhaps it is because there is no one-true-way that all the different "sub"-sets pop up as descriptors for folks' unique persepectives regarding submission.
 
when this slave first discovered D/s, M/s relationships and BDSM, she thought submissive meant submissive, as in the way a person comfortably reacts to others, someone who finds purpose and fulfillment in submitting to/serving others on the other's terms.  an "all-encompassing" term, if you will, that descibed a person's personality, sexual and relationship orientation.
 
it took a while to realize that many folks embrace "submission" and are fulfilled by it as:
 
something they only do with their significant other, and/or
something they will only do behind the bedroom/dungeon door, and/or
something they will only do if no sex is involved until a prescribed time frame has passed, and/or
something that an otherwise dominant individual would actually choose under certain circumstances/conditions, and/or
only specific activities they are willing to perform for someone else, because they personally like those specific activities.
etc.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 8:23:42 AM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline 		erin

Seriously, thanks. i was re reading the posts from everyone and thinking...i dont need a carrot and a stick to serve...but i balk at the idea of "service sub"...does that mean that i dont get all the sex and beatings and whatnot if im too service-oriented? Cuz, id hate to accidentally sign up for that.

perse

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Service Oriented Submissive - 11/25/2008 8:26:43 AM   
persephonee


Posts: 5089
Joined: 12/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Perse... what we are talking about are the inclinations that already exist in a person... but expressed in the context of submission.  From what you describe, you do sound like a service oriented submissive.  Here's why... you take pleasure (are rewarded by) acts of service in and of themselves.  As a result you are motivated to do these things on your own initiative... you don't often have to be told or otherwise rewarded to do them.

To give you a contrast, someone more obedience oriented would want to be trained to provide those same services and would not show much initiative until that had occurred.  For them, they feel rewarded by the training itself (probably more specifically the attention involved).  Someone control oriented might do a very good job of performing service, but only when told (and in some cases only when "forced" to do so), for them the reward is in feeling control exerted over them.

Does that help?


Padriag...

Yes, that helps, thank you...
my next question is...does this mean i have to give up my status as attentionwhore? Because, princess would be sooo sad...blinkblink

_____________________________

You be the Captain; i'll be no one.

And You can carry me away....if You want to. ~Kasey Chambers

E*Whore, extraordinaire....

Nothing is exactly as it seems~Nor, is it otherwise.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 40
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