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RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 12:29:55 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

For some it may be discrimination, for others it really may not be. To assume it is with everyone is, in my opinion, a type of reverse descrimination.

Maybe you can explain to me, in a way I will understand, how "You're not male enough because you weren't born male" or "you're not female enough because you weren't born female" is not discrimination.

(Oh, yeah -- found one of Dame Calla's hot-buttons here...)

As someone who struggled with this issue as there was someone who is transgendered who years ago I considered dating, there is just a difference. Not only that, but the way an actual vagina responds cannot be duplicated by science and to me, that is part of what I enjoy. If a transgendered person can choose to be with someone then someone else can certainly choose not to be with them. If they simply have a "next" sign on their forehead then they are at least not being hypocritical. Or they could go and choose to be with another transgendered but most want a "real" partner to accept their "not real" self.

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 61

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 12:55:52 PM

xxblushesxx

Posts: 9318
Joined: 11/3/2005
From: Kentucky
Status: offline

quick reply to the OP (I'm sure this has probably been said already);

If the verification process is a problem, the answer to that is to be honest up front.
When I was looking, I let people know in the first or second email that I have children. (a few!)
Those who were not interested took a pass, and those who could deal with it, stuck around.
It's not fair to lead someone to believe that you have always been what you are now; not to you, and not to them.
You have had life experiences that most have not. You need someone who can be there for who you are, and who you were.
(and, you will be much happier in the long run with someone who is wonderful for you, even if it takes longer to find.)

_____________________________

~Christina

A nice girl with a disturbing hobby

My femdom findom blog: http://www.MistressAvarice.com

(in reply to mbes)

Post #: 62

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 1:07:42 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

CallafirestormBW,

We are speaking of potential PARTNERS HERE, more than likely sexual partners or intimate partners, not the average joe on the street not accepting the OP. I think that needs to be clear before you have a fire in your pants and bandie around the word discrimination and discriminating. A concept of preference is something wherein a case can be made for discrimination. However, people have a right to then discriminate when it comes to their personal choices of a partner or a slave or a sub in this matter. A person who prefers a PERSON BORN A MALE OR FEMALE is NOT discriminating in the legal sense because they don't want to be with someone who chose to change that birth gender. Maybe its because well me for example, the Man i am with better be a XY chromisome concept type male or else i would find myself squicked and yes, i would feel as if i had been raped -- btw i am bisexual so the idea of being with a woman isn't the issue. Why? Because to me that is what makes someone male or female and psychologically that is who i presumed i was with even on a subconscious level. You may not like it others may not like it but hey, i have a right to my opinions and more importantly MY PREFERENCES with regard to partners. I have a transgender friend so my PREFERENCE of someone choosing that concept does not extend beyond my preference in partners. I am not narrowminded, discriminating or ignorant of this choice someone made, its simply not someone i would CHOOSE to be involved with and i would be damned pissed off and extra squicked and probably feel like i had been raped and probably file emotional distress complaint against them IF they omitted this information to me. Why? Because they took MY CHOICE away more so because THEY were aware on some level revealing said information would result in a situation NOT TO THEIR LIKING because i would say thanks but no thanks. On many levels it is a concept of rape they would be committing.

Here's a thought, a person doesn't have to disclose to people they are a murderer or a felon or sexual predator in the past because they have lived an exemplarary life for however many years, but that doesn't make it right to HIDE it even by omission from potential partners who may in the future be effected by same. And yeah, a guy finding out that he has been having sex with a guy/female because his DNA is XY and he had lived part of his life as male COULD BE PSYCHOLOGICALLY AND EMOTIONALLY effective in a majorily negative manner. Does it matter that "YOU" the transgender doesn't think this should happen because people should just accept them. NO it doesn't matter. The transgender has NO RIGHT to withhold information from a potential partner because they are afraid of what that potential partners reaction may be. That potential partner has a RIGHT to be fully informed to make a fully informed decision, not have their choices taken away by a transgender who is too insecure with themselves to be straight about their choices in life with people they want to trust them. This information could HARM someone, whether you like it or not, its LIFE -- deal with it as an adult knowing some people don't prefer transgender people and shouldn't be FORCED by the omission of said information by the transgender to do something they would not otherwise consent too.

I can't believe people are trying to use the politically correct concepts of discrimination and such to justify omission of a significant past by a person to a potential partner. That to me is as NON-CONSENSUAL as a person can get. As i said, murders are not required to reveal their past but i think pretty much most people here would agree such an omission of such a significant part of a person's past would be a lie because they were afraid of how a potential partner may react to said news. This is the same concept.

If you made the choice to be female or male then to me, you should be comfortable enough and secure enough in yourself to admit what you have done to a potential partner, because otherwise not doing so could seriously HARM someone who finds out otherwise, and that to me is BS and MUCH worse than a potential partner saying sorry not interested when the change is revealed BEFORE thereby giving the potential partner a choice.

The op is trying very hard to make her case that OTHER PEOPLE should not have the choice because of the choices SHE has made. Sorry life doesn't work like that -- you have ramifications and consequences good and bad to every choice she makes and in her case the choice to change her sex narrows her playing field from what it was before because OTHER PEOPLE have choices also and she should respect that, which doesn't seem like she wants to acknowledge that concept.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to LaTigresse)

Post #: 63

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 1:07:44 PM

SingleRarity

Posts: 320
Joined: 9/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

quote:

ORIGINAL: SingleRarity

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae
Does it really matter if you were born one way and are another way?
Just girls and boys that are submissives,
Just dommes and doms that are wanting for submissive/slave.

So from what I gathered from your op, we should just just take whatever partners come our way regardless of taste or preference because if we don't it might hurt someone's feelings? Um...well then shouldn't you get rid of that clause in your profile that says "NO MEN" in big bold letters?

Daddy's Ballerina, e

Actually, no... I notice that she doesn't specify "No genetically -born- men" or "No 'trans' men"... she just says "no men"... what she's talking about is discriminating against people because they were born in a different body that wasn't a match for the person inside the shell, and who went through measures to make the change so the inside matches the outside. What she's talking about is a -very- specific kind of discrimination, where, despite an individual being male, because his 'maleness' is by surgery rather than by birth, he is barred from positions open to -male- servants... or where a female who is female by surgical adaptation in body to match the mind that has -always- felt female is barred from positions meant for female submissive types SOLELY because she wasn't born a female. What about that is so hard to understand?

I understand what discrimination is, but she's not applying for a job at McDonalds. We're talking about relationships. A Dominant doesn't have to have to enter into a relationship with everyone who presents themselves to him/her. For some people, being born a female, is a trait they want in a partner. That's not discrimination. Are you saying people can't have preferences? When it boils down to it, some people just won't be into her. I have small boobs. Breast men will not be into me. I'm cool with that. We all at some point have to expect that someone will not be into us.....

Daddy's Ballerina, e

< Message edited by SingleRarity -- 11/26/2008 1:09:33 PM >

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 64

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 1:15:30 PM

NuevaVida

Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CallaFirestormBW

It blows my mind that people are actually trying to justify this kind of bald-faced discrimination on such feeble grounds. At least be honest in saying "Oh, yeah, btw, I'm biased against transgenders."

I don't necessarily see it as bald faced discrimination. A couple of years ago my former owner introduced me to a local woman who wanted to join our relationship. She was a nice person, yet had many many many insecurities and hang ups about how people saw her and what they thought of her. She said she had gone through hell getting to the place she was, and many surgeries to have the body she did. She did not tell me she was born a male, and had she told me before, I would have been able to process this and very possibly move forward with her (had her insecurities not turned to such rudeness that I stopped dealing with her).

We met. We went out for a beer. She had quite the decent figure but a lot of male mannerisms, male hands and arms, and her voice was still a bit low. In other words, born female or not, she was not sexually appealing to me. So, maybe I discriminate based on sexual appeal, but I think we all do to some degree.

My big issue is that I didn't understand this self protection she had about herself, and the insecurities, the extreme defensiveness, and the lashing out. Maybe if I had known where she was coming from I'd have been more compassionate about it. As it was, I did ask her if she had been born a male, and she said it was none of my business what her past was, that my owner knew about her and that's all that mattered. I felt if she could not be honest with me, I could never develop a meaningful relationship with her. When she sent naked photos of herself (I did not ask for these) as a way to verify she is a she, there was a clear scar over her mons which is what ultimately caused me to ask about her history.

Without the ability to talk about things, I was unable to process my own reaction to the idea of playing with her sexually. I felt used by her, as a prop to play with my owner with. And as I mentioned in my original post on this thread, some people really do have emotional/mental processing to do, with circumstances that have not been in our personal experiences. I wouldn't call this discrimination, I call this being human.

_____________________________

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(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)

Post #: 65

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 1:25:46 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

Well, I don't relate very well to this idea about gender being confined to what's below the waist rather than what's above the neck. The brain is the largest sexual organ we humans have, so why there are so many who think those nether regions and little dangly bits have more impact on a person's gender than what swirls around in the gray matter is not really something I can wrap my own brain around.That said, to get so up in arms that your self-esteem is effected by perfect strangers asking a simple question doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me either. These are people whom you've never actually met and they are suddenly the catalyst for all that ails? Put on your big girl panties, suck it up and if someone is effecting you that much on line, get off line and stick with the real world. Seriously.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to Aszhrae)

Post #: 66

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 1:45:58 PM

DavanKael

Posts: 3072
Joined: 10/6/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

My reasoning, is a concern towards those that have given almost everything they have ever known in the world to becoming either a dominant or submissive of another gender type only to have everything they have accomplished to become for naught by the simple request of verification. By someone to whom they have everything in common with that could quite possible be the best damn dominant a submissive could ever want. Or, the best damn submissive a dominant could want.
Then to have it shattered by a photograph, a phone call or a video.
Then of course there is the trust issue.
The dominant wants to be trusted to have the sub/slave best intentions in mind. The sub/slave wants to be trusted also.
The boy having become the girl because in their heart, mind and soul, they have always been a girl and the dominant might not find anyone better, but with the single act of verification, that dream of becoming the perfect submissive is gone, just like that.
The same could be said about the girl becoming the boy.

Dominants want to be trusted by their sub/slave, and yet, by requesting verification, its obvious, they don't trust the sub/slave that is more than likely to think of their dominant as the whole world. Pity really.

I see the hurt in your words and possibly, just possibly, some lack of self-acceptance too. I, personally, have no biases against transgendered people as people, none at all. That having been said, just like some people aren't looking for an earthy, poly-, straight-leaning bi-, kinky little chick with long brown hair and brown eyes, some people aren't looking for a transgendered individual either.
As has been suggested to you by others, there are those out there that celebrate what you have to offer. Continuing to try to 'convert' those who don't want to be converted is ust going to hurt you further and piss them off. We all have 'packages' that more appeal to us: I like certain things about men, there are other traits that are just downright off-putting. We all have our continuum of acceptability, I think; or, at least I do. There are lots of people out there who want a transgendered partner; my suggestion is to accept yourself as who you are and to seek out those who want that which you have to offer. :>
Davan

_____________________________

May you live as long as you wish & love as long as you live
-Robert A Heinlein

It's about the person & the bond,not the bondage
-Me

Waiting is

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Jesus,I've ALWAYS been a deviant
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(in reply to Aszhrae)

Post #: 67

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 3:38:57 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

they don't want to be with someone who chose to change that birth gender.

Let me ask you a question here, okay?

Let's assume you have double pneumonia, both lungs filled with fluid. You can't breathe. What would you do?

Are you going to sit there or are you going to get emergency help?

Obvious choice?

This is exactly the same choice faced by someone suffering from gender dysphoria - the central mental condition (not an illness, a condition) which affects the transgendered.

Do you want to live your life in constant inner turmoil, emotional distress, inner conflict, anxiety and anguish or are you going to seek gender reassignment to become your actual gender and live and function like everyone else?

This isn't a case of a man waking up one day and deciding to become a woman. This doesn't normally happen, and I believe that no doctor in his right mind would agree to such an event. Body modification yes, why there's even plastic surgery, but to change one's complete gender from happily functioning male to happily functioning female? No.

You really think you are only the gender you are born into and that it's not possible to acquire the opposite gender?

Okay, newsflash.

I am a chimera, I am transgendered, due to not just gender dysphoria, but also mosaicism. I have two interlocking DNA patterns, one male, the other female. I was sexed as male but I have a female bone structure, female skin and patterns of hair growth, and I have female erogenous zones and am starting to produce female hormones.

I was once between the two genders, but am female.

But do you know what? Almost everybody else in this planet has mosaicism. You want examples? Okay, women who grow facial hair, for one, men who have voices typically above the male pitch of 90-120Hz for another and so on. Are you telling me you've never seen a 'butch' woman or a feminine male? These are all examples of mosaicism.

So you can stretch this argument further and state that we are all transgendered to some degree, but in most cases like 95% of cases this doesn't affect our biological gender, but in 5% of cases it does and corrective treatment and therapy together with surgery is necessary.

CallaFirestorm here is 100% correct, someone transitioning to be female IS female and the same is true for someone transitioning to be male. It isn't the surgery which makes them female or male, but the diagnosis by specialist medical professionals and acceptance onto a gender recognised program.

To state that someone like me or anyone else like me is choosing to become the opposite gender is at best a gross misunderstanding, not least when you consider the sheer emotional trauma and stress of gender reassignment and not least when you also consider those for whom it was too much stress and who later committed suicide.

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(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 68

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 4:03:54 PM

tsatske

Posts: 2037
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline

Aszhrae,
Do you really think anyone wants to be with someone who just isn't that into them, no matter what the reason?
I have a brother and a son who are TS. We might welcome a TS here to us, depending on the PERSON, not on the fact that they are TS.

However, there is never a right and wrong when it comes to dealing with what someone's personal wants in an interpersonal relationship are - other than, it is wrong to be dishonest about it.

I am FAT. a lot of men do not want a fat slave. That is okay.
You know why it is okay? because every limiting factor is filter, and every filter is a blessing.

Rather you believe there is 'one true one' for each person, or just that there are several, but a very limited number, of good matches, either way -
It is like being given a big pile of thousands of coins (recognize the old grade school math teaser here?) In there, you are told, is ONE coin you must find. Or, if you are not a 'one true match' believer, then, say - in that pile of thousands, there are a dozen 'right' ones, and you must find one of those. either way, it is a task of breathtaking magnitude.
Why do you feel cheated when you are able to cut the stack? Someone comes along and gives you a hint - perhaps they say, 'the coin you want is made of Aluminum', so you run a magnet over the stack, and, Whomp! half the stack is gone! Do you sit there crying, oh, my, half the potential matches didn't fit! What will I DO! NO - you are HAPPY - you are now twice as close to finding the right one!

I am sorry if someone gets their feelings hurt, in the early negotations stages, when a potentail says, 'no, we will not work out, because I do not want to be with a TV/TS'. But how is that differant than someone saying to me, 'Oh, no, I can not accept being with someone who is bi-polar.' It is not my fault I am bi-polar! shouldn't they just accept me! what if they send me spiralling into a depression and I end up hospitalized! The world is hard enough for bi-polars, already!

But, really - even if my feelings get stung by the rejection - why would I want to build a relatinship with someone who can not accept things about me which I cannot change? how could that possibly be good? wouldn't it be better to get my feelings hurt, and move on, till I find the right one? (found Him, thank you very much! And what if I had stopped my search and accepted being with someone who only accepted me because they would feel small minded if they rejected me - but they really weren't happy with me at all? Could I have ever been as happy as I am now, in that case?)

_____________________________

“If you never did you should. These things are fun and fun is good”
~Dr. Seuss quote

(in reply to mbes)

Post #: 69

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 4:10:14 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

they don't want to be with someone who chose to change that birth gender.

Let me ask you a question here, okay?

Let's assume you have double pneumonia, both lungs filled with fluid. You can't breathe. What would you do?

Are you going to sit there or are you going to get emergency help?

Obvious choice?

This is exactly the same choice faced by someone suffering from gender dysphoria - the central mental condition (not an illness, a condition) which affects the transgendered.

Do you want to live your life in constant inner turmoil, emotional distress, inner conflict, anxiety and anguish or are you going to seek gender reassignment to become your actual gender and live and function like everyone else?

If the transgendered person needed to have their physical body changed to match their mental state...then they are by definition saying the shape of the physical body matters...THUS if it matters to me what the origins of that physical body are, they are doing EXACTLY the same thing I am.

Saying "you suck as a human being for being transgendered" is fucked up and wrong but saying "I don't want you as a partner" is perfectly acceptable.

(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 70

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 4:13:58 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Stella, read my posts again instead of cutting and pasting out of context. I never stated ANYTHING about someone changing their gender or that its wrong or not knowing why they choose to do so -- as i said i have a transgender friend. And no, i really don't need an explanation of why someone MAY CHOOSE to do so. Last i checked someone had to sign consent forms to have the surgery. Someones choice, which whether you like it or not IS A CHOICE to change your actual gender to what you feel better suits you, which again, is NOT what my post is about -- nor do personally care what people choose to do with their bodies, however, its not UP TO TRANSGENDERS to determine what OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO ACCEPT and literally force someone to accept something they may otherwise MAKE A DIFFERENT CHOICE ABOUT if they are fully informed.

So please save your misplaced preaching for a concept that actually deserves it instead of taking what 10 words out of a couple PARAGRAPH post and putting a meaning i never put to them. Even my transgender friend believes withholding this information from a potential partner is wrong, also believes that bitching someone is discriminating because they don't wish to be with a transgender is pushing it and is wrong.

Anyone who chooses this, yeah it IS A CHOICE is a significant thing IN YOUR LIFE that your potential partners DESERVE to know before agreeing or saying fuck off you freak (which is a rude way someone MAY actually feel who some transgender may force them into a relationship by omitting VITAL information that would change the course of that relationship) to any relationship with you. There are many people in the world who choose NOT to have the operation. Perhaps you will GET what i am saying instead of putting some misconceived meaning to 10 words out of how many that have a completely different context to those 10 words and the meaning you are implying. You really should learn to focus on a whole post instead of 10 words you decide to take out of context and put a meaning to it that was never indicated in the context of the post as a whole. Then perhaps you won't find yourself upset because you discriminate about 10 words stated in a post.

And btw i personally could care less about your personal issues this isn't being a bitch -- its being honest -- this isn't about you or your choices nor is it personal, i am not a potential partner of yours, and really don't care. I mean hell i could take hours and list all my issues in my life and well in the general course of life your issues are no more or less than mine they are just different issues. However, if i was a potential partner and you decided for me than the ISSUES in your life or significant changes in your life don't matter to me, YOU WOULD BE WRONG. And sorry there IS no justification to not telling a potential partner and giving them the full disclosure to choose what THEY want.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/26/2008 4:28:11 PM >

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 71

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 7:26:29 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

they don't want to be with someone who chose to change that birth gender.

Let me ask you a question here, okay?

Let's assume you have double pneumonia, both lungs filled with fluid. You can't breathe. What would you do?

Are you going to sit there or are you going to get emergency help?

Obvious choice?

This is exactly the same choice faced by someone suffering from gender dysphoria - the central mental condition (not an illness, a condition) which affects the transgendered.

Do you want to live your life in constant inner turmoil, emotional distress, inner conflict, anxiety and anguish or are you going to seek gender reassignment to become your actual gender and live and function like everyone else?

If the transgendered person needed to have their physical body changed to match their mental state...then they are by definition saying the shape of the physical body matters...THUS if it matters to me what the origins of that physical body are, they are doing EXACTLY the same thing I am.

Saying "you suck as a human being for being transgendered" is fucked up and wrong but saying "I don't want you as a partner" is perfectly acceptable.

SimplyMichael I agree with you (and others) 100%.

The way I see it my right is to be recognized as a female - period.

This doesn't necessarily have to mean a naturally born female, does it?

This doesn't infringe in any way upon your right or the right of anyone else to prefer a naturally born female as a partner, as opposed to a transgendered female. True?

This isn't just about sex, but about the whole relationship. A naturally born female gives off emotional signals differently from a transgendered female, right?

We're talking here about gender recognition, i.e. female. But to my mind that recognition doesn't have to include equality with a naturally born female in every aspect of life.

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)

Post #: 72

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 7:50:36 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Stella, read my posts again instead of cutting and pasting out of context. I never stated ANYTHING about someone changing their gender or that its wrong or not knowing why they choose to do so -- as i said i have a transgender friend. And no, i really don't need an explanation of why someone MAY CHOOSE to do so. Last i checked someone had to sign consent forms to have the surgery. Someones choice, which whether you like it or not IS A CHOICE to change your actual gender to what you feel better suits you, which again, is NOT what my post is about -- nor do personally care what people choose to do with their bodies, however, its not UP TO TRANSGENDERS to determine what OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TO ACCEPT and literally force someone to accept something they may otherwise MAKE A DIFFERENT CHOICE ABOUT if they are fully informed.

So please save your misplaced preaching for a concept that actually deserves it instead of taking what 10 words out of a couple PARAGRAPH post and putting a meaning i never put to them. Even my transgender friend believes withholding this information from a potential partner is wrong, also believes that bitching someone is discriminating because they don't wish to be with a transgender is pushing it and is wrong.

Anyone who chooses this, yeah it IS A CHOICE is a significant thing IN YOUR LIFE that your potential partners DESERVE to know before agreeing or saying fuck off you freak (which is a rude way someone MAY actually feel who some transgender may force them into a relationship by omitting VITAL information that would change the course of that relationship) to any relationship with you. There are many people in the world who choose NOT to have the operation. Perhaps you will GET what i am saying instead of putting some misconceived meaning to 10 words out of how many that have a completely different context to those 10 words and the meaning you are implying. You really should learn to focus on a whole post instead of 10 words you decide to take out of context and put a meaning to it that was never indicated in the context of the post as a whole. Then perhaps you won't find yourself upset because you discriminate about 10 words stated in a post.

And btw i personally could care less about your personal issues this isn't being a bitch -- its being honest -- this isn't about you or your choices nor is it personal, i am not a potential partner of yours, and really don't care. I mean hell i could take hours and list all my issues in my life and well in the general course of life your issues are no more or less than mine they are just different issues. However, if i was a potential partner and you decided for me than the ISSUES in your life or significant changes in your life don't matter to me, YOU WOULD BE WRONG. And sorry there IS no justification to not telling a potential partner and giving them the full disclosure to choose what THEY want.

angel

Wow! Interesting. What's with the attitude?

No you go back and read the posts, both mine and your's. Try doing it a little more thoroughly, and you might find the following:

1. I didn't take what you wrote out of context. Go back through your posts and you will find that you make the same point twice that someone is exercising the freedom of choice to change their gender. This is inaccurate, and I was just pointing that out.

2. When it comes to potential partners, I agree with you (and everyone else) about honesty and full disclosure and even pointed it out to the OP herself.

3. Misplaced preaching? Wow. You might have a hundred transgendered friends, I don't care how many. Well I AM a transgendered female and I'm writing from my own personal experience. You haven't even exchanged a single word with me ever in correspondence so please do go assuming that you know anything about me or my issues or even try to claim that I'm wrong. How do you know?

4. Maybe you'd also care to reason why you're getting so upset. You want to go make this some kind of confrontation and bitter argument then please go ahead. I'm trying to share some of my experience for the benefit of other people here, it is experience and it is valid. Whether or not you accept it as such is your choice. But I don't see any reason here for a confrontation.

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Post #: 73

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 8:05:28 PM

Aynne88

Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
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Stella you rock.

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(in reply to stella41b)

Post #: 74

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 8:17:29 PM

Lockit

Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

I mean no disrespect to anyone here and am not addressing the many issues involved. What I wish to address is the fact that there is some sort of expectation that because someone has struggled in life and they have done a lot to get to where they now are, has no bearing on how people 'should' respond to them. I think everyone should be nice to one another, but that isn't the way it goes. To expect people to accept you... I don't care who you are... and not shut you down or out or in because you struggled through a lot, is an unrealistic expectation. To judge them because they do not want something or other in a personal relationship is basically imposing your will and wants upon them. You cannot force someone to want something or you because you struggled through something. To then get an attitude about it and such is simply a personal issue in my opinion.

Because I struggle with health issues, should I become angry with anyone who doesn't want to be with me because I struggled, paid my dues and have become what I know I am, that they will not see because they simply don't want to? Should I judge anyone who doesn't want to be with me? Should I think less of someone because they cannot, will not accept me, see me and love me? HELL NO!

To judge them because of your own issues, whatever they are... not just transgendered... is like calling them on what you in fact are doing. You cannot control them and that is as it should be.

To take an attitude about dominants who don't care enough or love and then no matter how they respond and say they do care suggest you are not listening. To judge people for wanting or not wanting certain things in their life is about as emotionally healthy as... well nothing I can think of. To impose your will or expectations and be disappointed and then whine, complain, judge and stomp your feet about it, isn't okay in my opinion.

I love dearly my transgendered friends. I see their heart and love and all sorts of things. That doesn't mean I wish to be in a relationship with them and deal with the many things one must. It isn't even just a personal choice sometimes. It might be family, society and the like. Is it right that anyone is treated badly? No, not with me, but the bottom line is that is life, we all get it in some way. It isn't anyone's fault that someone doesn't like us for whatever reason and to get pissy about it suggests to me that there is more healing needed in the process of whatever you are going through.

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Post #: 75

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 8:36:00 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

Stella, i am not upset, however, i really dislike when someone takes 10 words or so out of a COUPLE paragraphs of text and indicates a concept i never stated nor did i imply. ALL of my posts have been about the dishonesty of someone not fully disclosing concept. NONE of my posts have anything to do with why people would choose to make this choice or their motivation or reasonings -- btw i deliberately wasn't going there when i made those posts, but i was speaking of the ACTUAL CHANGE physically. So your deciding to take 10 words or so and comment on them as if i somehow said something wrong by them is well the way things get misconstrued and things get misunderstood.

I never even read any of your posts other than the one you wrote by commenting on 10 words out of my posts and i have no desire to read your other ones, especially as you have stated you agree with my point and others point in this post to me.

Laughs, Stella go back and read your post, YOU STATE WHAT YOUR WHOLE ISSUES ARE lol. Second part of your post on my words. Funny how spins can be put in words that you never intended or implied, isn't it. So now who is getting upset. Perhaps you can relate to how i feel, but you probably will refuse to get what i am saying here lol.

You don't call an actual agreement to have an operation to make yourself more comfortable in your own body a choice. I call it a choice no matter what the motivation is, consent forms for the actual surgery have that thing going for them. However, my posts were not focused on the motivation for the change or the right or wrong or whatever of it, my posts were exactly about what you stated you agree with, so again -- you decided to take 10 words out of all of those paragraphs, put a spin on them that never was there just so you can preach about your experience when my posts wasn't asking or stating anything about the persons choice or non-choice other than the consent form they sign to change their body significantly from one sex to another. You could have easily stated your post without taking 10 words of my post out of context and still have gotten your point and experience across to people interesting in knowing it. See what you did is what causes misinformation, and misunderstandings because you take a few words out of a whole post and decide what them mean, instead of seeing them in the context of the whole. Perhaps next time you may want to ask what i meant before assuming i mean something and running with YOUR idea of what it means.

angel

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Post #: 76

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 8:45:49 PM

Aszhrae

Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline

The whole point of this thread had to do with the verification that other members choose to use. It really does put a damper on an individuals search be they dominant or sub/slave.
Some are for it, some against and some choose not to do it at all.
What bothers me the most, are the individuals that make the first contact, they're pushy, they want everything, certainly some are willing to answer their questions. Girl just finds it interesting and perhaps a little rude, denying someone the verification that they want, is like asking your date to have sex with you the first night you go out. Not going to happen, girl doesn't know, and you want me to trust you, when you will not even trust me.
Girl is not going to let someone screw her on the first date, damn me to purgatory if girl is going to do as you ask while chatting for the first time unless of course you just happen to be Miss.
Verification is pretty much the same way, although, girl may not have pictures. Girl's Birth Certificate says girl is female. Sorry, only verification girl has at this time and it was issued by the Province of BC, here in Canada.

(in reply to Aynne88)

Post #: 77

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 8:57:40 PM

Aszhrae

Posts: 1030
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline

You are probably correct BitaTruble.
Someone asks me to give verification, girl should say: 'My apologies mistress, girl does not have verification at this time.' Just shrug it off if they want to have nothing more to do with me, it's not the end of the world. Probably would not have enjoyed being their girl anyways.
Girl knows who she is and girl really has no one to prove anything to, but girl's own Miss.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

Post #: 78

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 9:01:21 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Stella, i am not upset, however, i really dislike when someone takes 10 words or so out of a COUPLE paragraphs of text and indicates a concept i never stated nor did i imply. ALL of my posts have been about the dishonesty of someone not fully disclosing concept. NONE of my posts have anything to do with why people would choose to make this choice or their motivation or reasonings -- btw i deliberately wasn't going there when i made those posts, but i was speaking of the ACTUAL CHANGE physically. So your deciding to take 10 words or so and comment on them as if i somehow said something wrong by them is well the way things get misconstrued and things get misunderstood.

I never even read any of your posts other than the one you wrote by commenting on 10 words out of my posts and i have no desire to read your other ones, especially as you have stated you agree with my point and others point in this post to me.

Laughs, Stella go back and read your post, YOU STATE WHAT YOUR WHOLE ISSUES ARE lol. Second part of your post on my words. Funny how spins can be put in words that you never intended or implied, isn't it. So now who is getting upset. Perhaps you can relate to how i feel, but you probably will refuse to get what i am saying here lol.

You don't call an actual agreement to have an operation to make yourself more comfortable in your own body a choice. I call it a choice no matter what the motivation is, consent forms for the actual surgery have that thing going for them. However, my posts were not focused on the motivation for the change or the right or wrong or whatever of it, my posts were exactly about what you stated you agree with, so again -- you decided to take 10 words out of all of those paragraphs, put a spin on them that never was there just so you can preach about your experience when my posts wasn't asking or stating anything about the persons choice or non-choice other than the consent form they sign to change their body significantly from one sex to another. You could have easily stated your post without taking 10 words of my post out of context and still have gotten your point and experience across to people interesting in knowing it. See what you did is what causes misinformation, and misunderstandings because you take a few words out of a whole post and decide what them mean, instead of seeing them in the context of the whole. Perhaps next time you may want to ask what i meant before assuming i mean something and running with YOUR idea of what it means.

angel

Okay I apologize for tyaking those ten words out of context from your posting... Happy now? You see a choice, I see it differently but I'm sorry, I am transgendered, I am also working ith other transgendered people as part of a support group, and my opinion is just as valid as your's is, even if it differs.

Oh and incidentally, while we're talking about disclosure, if I wasn't into disclosing who I am and what I'm about, why would I have it clearly on my profile?

You see it as preaching, again your opinion. Well maybe there are people reading this thread who might actually be interested in what I have to write and share with others which might help to promote some sort of understanding, and yes I'm using the word might, and if that's achieved all well and good.

Now can we move on from the petty bickering over who could have, should have, who wrote what and when and somehow get back on topic here?

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Post #: 79

RE: Verification: more harm than good - 11/26/2008 9:20:40 PM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aszhrae

The whole point of this thread had to do with the verification that other members choose to use. It really does put a damper on an individuals search be they dominant or sub/slave.
Some are for it, some against and some choose not to do it at all.
What bothers me the most, are the individuals that make the first contact, they're pushy, they want everything, certainly some are willing to answer their questions. Girl just finds it interesting and perhaps a little rude, denying someone the verification that they want, is like asking your date to have sex with you the first night you go out. Not going to happen, girl doesn't know, and you want me to trust you, when you will not even trust me.
Girl is not going to let someone screw her on the first date, damn me to purgatory if girl is going to do as you ask while chatting for the first time unless of course you just happen to be Miss.
Verification is pretty much the same way, although, girl may not have pictures. Girl's Birth Certificate says girl is female. Sorry, only verification girl has at this time and it was issued by the Province of BC, here in Canada.

Then what with the whole transgendered issue? Oh.. never mind.. it doesn't matter now.

Back on topic, the actual topic, verification...

Aszhrae, having a profile here doesn't guarantee that you will get a specific type of response. Everybody gets unsuitable responses all the time, and this has got nothing to do with who they are.

Yes some people are pushy, this is the Internet, this is how some people communicate, one two e-mails, then IM or phone, then meet and then whatever else. But does this mean you have to be the same?

No, it doesn't. Just like with verification. I don't like it, but it happens and some people require it, and that is their choice and their right.

Getting upset over it isn't going to change anything, and frankly being defensive towards others probably won't help either. You don't have to prove anything to anyone if you don't want, and this is the bottom line.

That saying I'm through with this thread.

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Post #: 80

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