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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 10:23:19 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

This i truely horrific, and what is worse to me is that ther are pages and pages on here about politics and the economy and only one thread about this. Does the geography of the attack make it less significant?


yes. an attack that kills a hundred people I don't know is less significant than an attack that kills all of my family, friends, and loved ones.


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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 10:31:42 AM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzMia

What a horrific situation over there.
They blew up the Taj Mahal!
Hundreds killed, hundreds injured, hundreds still waiting to be saved or are
missing.
I think the final count will have the death toll closer to at least 1,000.
 
They are having some serious problems in India, and eventually the US
will be involved.
Report: Indian forces prepare to storm hotels - South and Central Asia- msnbc.com


I don't think they blew up the actual taj mahal. just the taj mahal hotel. the news article called it a century old edifice. the taj mahal is older than a century.

and the taj mahal isn't in mumbai...


< Message edited by variation30 -- 11/28/2008 10:32:23 AM >

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 10:42:32 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

I think Mr Obama will bring the fight to the terrorists directly and effectively.

No, he won't.

He will posture, pontificate, talk, posture some more, wring his hands and bemoan the tragic loss of life, and wander off into some philosophical nonsense about the greater tragedy that "forced" the terrorists to be homicidal maniacs bent on nothing but suicidal destruction.

Then he'll do a Clinton and lob a couple cruise missiles into the more remote regions of Afghanistan and/or Pakistan, and pat himself on the back for taking a "stand" against terrorism.

Hoping the terrorists will laugh themselves to death over his idiocy doesn't strike me as much of a response.  But then, response was never his forte, now was it?


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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 11:02:35 AM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

U.S. citizens traveling abroad have been in danger from random acts of terror since the 1970s.  The danger is no greater now than it was back in 1980.



...i'm sure you believe that CL, but does anyone have any evidence for this question one way or the other?


I've been to Ireland and Northern Ireland three times in the last ten years and never felt in danger.
Not even when we took a wrong turn and British soldiers had their weapons leveled on us in Kady.

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 11:06:58 AM   
RCdc


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Because Ireland and N Ireland has been such the hot bed of violence in the last ten years, comparing it to twenty years ago...
 
the.dark.

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 1:06:46 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

an attack that kills a hundred people I don't know is less significant than an attack that kills all of my family, friends, and loved ones.



...one dead Belgian eh?

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 1:33:08 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...one dead Belgian eh?


I care a lot less about any Belgian than I do my mother.


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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 1:34:47 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...one dead Belgian eh?


I care a lot less about any Belgian than I do my mother.



...so you don't get the reference eh? Ah, ignorance.

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 3:12:28 PM   
Owner59


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I fear for anyone taken by these nuts.

Apparently they separated out the American and British passport holders.

My prayers go out to the victims and their families.

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 3:13:23 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...so you don't get the reference eh? Ah, ignorance.


have you read something I have not?

what are the odds?

but I will say this...

as value is subjective, my mother's life is worth more than 100 lives of people I do not know, be they african or not.

it has nothing to do with race, as your quote does - it has to do with how we value individuals. some people are more important to me than others. my family, my friends, and my loved ones are invaluable compared to strangers. the basis of valuing individuals differently is how we pick mates and lovers...so I don't really know what you are trying to get at.

< Message edited by variation30 -- 11/28/2008 3:16:33 PM >

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 4:10:29 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

...so I don't really know what you are trying to get at.


..no, you don't do you?

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 4:26:30 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

...one dead Belgian eh?


I care a lot less about any Belgian than I do my mother.



...so you don't get the reference eh? Ah, ignorance.

Just out of curiosity, how is that reference relevant?  As I recall, that quote is more meaningful in a discussion of journalistic ethics, is it not?


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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 4:30:50 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Just out of curiosity, how is that reference relevant?  As I recall, that quote is more meaningful in a discussion of journalistic ethics, is it not?



...well done. Yes it is. Variation 30, however, seems to subscribe to exactly the same set of ethics.....it's the arse end of journalism when that ethic is used, it's no more attractive in a private citizen.

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 4:45:41 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

...well done. Yes it is. Variation 30, however, seems to subscribe to exactly the same set of ethics.....it's the arse end of journalism when that ethic is used, it's no more attractive in a private citizen.

Inviting, of course, the corruption of a line from Erich Maria Remarque (and mis-attributed to Stalin):
quote:

The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.


Which, for better or worse, we all tend to prove accurate more often than not.


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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 4:56:03 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

...well done. Yes it is. Variation 30, however, seems to subscribe to exactly the same set of ethics.....it's the arse end of journalism when that ethic is used, it's no more attractive in a private citizen.

Inviting, of course, the corruption of a line from Erich Maria Remarque (and mis-attributed to Stalin):
quote:

The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic.


Which, for better or worse, we all tend to prove accurate more often than not.



...and to misquote still further........"A mile is a mile, but a million miles is just a very long way"........scale distorts perception. However some of us still try to wrap our heads around it......our mind may rebel from the reality, but we try to work around it. Denying it's reality and meaning, as Variation 30 appears to do, is just lazy at best....sociopathic ( in this context) at worst.

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 6:42:52 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

...and to misquote still further........"A mile is a mile, but a million miles is just a very long way"........scale distorts perception. However some of us still try to wrap our heads around it......our mind may rebel from the reality, but we try to work around it. Denying it's reality and meaning, as Variation 30 appears to do, is just lazy at best....sociopathic ( in this context) at worst.

Well, in all fairness to V30, he didn't do that.  He very clearly articulated that a death of a family member was more meaningful and more relevant to him than the deaths of hundreds of strangers--and even the most compassionate and enlightened soul alive is likely to have similar sentiments (albeit more delicate phrasing).

Which is one reason I added the Remarque misquote to the mix.  The death of an individual is a tragedy--in particular to those to whom that individual is known--whereas the deaths of hundreds or thousands of complete strangers necessarily carries less emotional heft, simply because of the lesser emotional connection any one person has to total strangers.

To that extent, I do agree with V30's comments.  Where I make a distinction that he has not is that even the deaths of complete strangers is a thing to be looked on with sorrow, perhaps even outrage.


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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 6:53:53 PM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Where I make a distinction that he has not is that even the deaths of complete strangers is a thing to be looked on with sorrow, perhaps even outrage.



...which is why, even though i disagree vehemently with much of what you have to say, i don't consider you a sociopath......

....i didn't know anyone in the Twin Towers, but i was upset and angry over it. i've known people killed and maimed by IRA bombs and i'm just as angry and upset over that. Perhaps my initial reaction was stronger in the latter case, but after a while it's all the same to me. Terrorists, of whatever stripe, are anti-human as i understand it....and terrorism, like bigotry, is a blight upon humanity.

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/28/2008 9:26:24 PM   
Vendaval


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Indian officials have reason to think that the attackers came from Pakistan.  And a team from the FBI has flow in to assist in the investigation.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/as_india_shooting;_ylt=Am6hmeSfq24TStZgBO3GiTLLLJ94


And this bloodbath has impact with Israel as well, since some of the hostages killed were either Israeli nationals or people with dual US - Israel citizenship.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081129/ap_on_re_us/india_shooting_us_victims;_ylt=AqLGQp5wZj_1Vf7rgqcDrMnLLJ94

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/29/2008 2:57:38 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

While not happy with the death and destruction, I'm not particularly interested yet in how this plays out in American politics, but rather, how, in general, it affects the world's view on Islamic terrorism, and specifically, how it affects US/Indian relations in the future.

<snip>

The problem will be if the terrorist had any strong links to Pakistan.



I wanted to wait until there was a clearer picture of what happened, before I replied to this.

It seems Lashkar-E-Taibar are linked to the attacks, according to a news report from India. This is the Kashmiri Islamic group, which had links to the Pakistani intelligence services, and training camps in the Pakistani controlled part of Kashmir.

After the Mumbai train bombings, which almost caused a war between the two countries, Pakistan has tried to bring the group under control. Due to the highly sophisticated nature of the attack, I would say the aim was to influence upcoming elections in India, and to divide a wedge between Indian and Pakistani peace efforts. The terrorists hijacked a trawler to enter India, and reports say there are significant amounts of information on board, which will aid the search for the planners of this attack. One report I read said up to 100 terrorists were involved, but given the fact 10 sites were attacked, there must have been several dozen at the very least.

I fail to see how Pakistani intelligence didnt at least have some inkling of what was about to happen. The big question is how much involvement they had, as India are sure to respond. The one difference to this attack and previous ones, was the targeting of foreigners.

As for the question of India/US relations, I think this will do just as Firm says, and bring them closer together.

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RE: Attacks in Mumbai leave at least 101 dead, 287 injured - 11/29/2008 4:08:43 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

FR:

While not happy with the death and destruction, I'm not particularly interested yet in how this plays out in American politics, but rather, how, in general, it affects the world's view on Islamic terrorism, and specifically, how it affects US/Indian relations in the future.

For those not paying close attention to the developing multi-polar world relationships, there has been some suggestion (and indications that it is occurring) that the US should seek a new power block arrangement with India and Japan to counter-balance the rise of China, and the growing Chinese/Russian power block.

I theorize that this incident will push India closer still to the US - assuming Obama's team sees the need - and result in a stronger US relationship with India, and make such a US-I-J block more viable.

The problem will be if the terrorist had any strong links to Pakistan.

However, with Obama's publicly professed willingness to throw Pakistan under the bus, this may will play right into such a scenario, and has the potential to involve the US in another land war in the area.

Interesting times.

Firm


This is just American imperial paranoia. What India and Pakistan need and what the world needs, if for them to find a peaceful solution to Kashmir which creates disaffection in both countries and enough alienated nihilistic young males that can be taken advantage of by extremists.

As for mulit-polar relations, India and Japan would be mad to choose America over Russia and China or vice versa. India has had a long productive relationship with Russia and it prized its none aligned status in the cold war and still seems to prefer to be between camps so its doubtful they would throw their lot in with the US, after all, what is it in for them to alienate and make enemies of their neighbour? It would be mainly for the US interests and I doubt India are concerned with purely US interests. As for Obama throwing Pakistan under the bus, that would just about sum up US foreign policy, totally inconsistent, having allies and then turning them into enemies when the going gets tough or inconvenient. Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, the whole region will be left totally fucked and the US runs. Sort of south east Asia deja vu.

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