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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 12:22:37 PM   
stella41b


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From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Arguing that ownership of a gun promotes safety speaks volumes of the sort of society you live in.

However even when you take crime figures into account, it's quite safe to live in most Western societies without needing to own a gun.


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 12:28:08 PM   
painpup


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Arguing that ownership of a gun promotes safety speaks volumes of the sort of society you live in.

However even when you take crime figures into account, it's quite safe to live in most Western societies without needing to own a gun.

that is until You become one the statistics and or in the wrong place at the right time

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 12:35:22 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
Joined: 10/2/2007
From: St George Utah
Status: offline 		The Point people is that it DOES happen and when it does if you no longer have the RIGHT to carry the means necessary to defend your Freedom what is going to happen?

I mean Come On People did no one here take World History and Govenrment in Highschool?

Consistentaly when people were unable to protect themselves they were overthrown or conqured.

Will it happen Tomorrow? Probably Not but if I give my rights to own the protection today I will be helpless tomorrow.

I get the points the anti gun people make, I really do, a dead child is a bad thing. But it isn't the guns it's the individual who uses it. Truth of the matter is Murder is Murder and it will happen if a person wants it bad enough if not with a gun then with a knife if not with a knofe then with a rock.

And you cannot Outlaw Rocks can you?

Sure that was an extreme stretch but with the knowledge of history it really isn't that far fetched.

Steel

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 12:36:06 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: painpup

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Arguing that ownership of a gun promotes safety speaks volumes of the sort of society you live in.

However even when you take crime figures into account, it's quite safe to live in most Western societies without needing to own a gun.

that is until You become one the statistics and or in the wrong place at the right time


Yeah right. But I can also get run over by a car, be involved in a place crash, contract a fatal illness, suffer a fatal accident, be involved in a train crash, etc etc..

At the moment I'm very much alive and you've got to admit the odds look quite promising that I will still be alive for quite some time into the future.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 12:42:05 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b


quote:

ORIGINAL: painpup
that is until You become one the statistics and or in the wrong place at the right time


Yeah right. But I can also get run over by a car, be involved in a place crash, contract a fatal illness, suffer a fatal accident, be involved in a train crash, etc etc..

At the moment I'm very much alive and you've got to admit the odds look quite promising that I will still be alive for quite some time into the future.


Not if you don't look when crossing the street, or not wear a seatbelt and drive wrecklessly, I bet you like knowing that your seat will double as a flotation device, I am sure you don't go kissing lepers, I am sure you take minimum care of yourself and try to keep a decent diet, I am sure you take note of your surrounding and don't walk without looking, I am sure you won't get on a Train car without an Engine. ...

All of these things you do to PROTECT YOURSELF from those things not happening, If you were to STOP protecting yourself in this way I doubt you would be with us for as long as you think you would be.

Protection is Protection if that is watching where you are going or being ready for what is coming your way you protect yourself and what is important to you. Freedom is important to me and I am willing to protect it.

Steel

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:10:27 PM   
Lorr47


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UncleNasty

Here in Kentucky we have very loose open carry laws. I once tested them for a period of a month, carrying either a 9mm or a .38 on my hip. The only places I avoided were schools, govermental buildings, and private properties that had signs prohibiting me from coming in heavy.

I did get some looks, but no one commented or questioned my rights to carry a weapon.

It was an interesting month.

One handed Uncle Nasty (I still have my "gun hand")


Michigan's "actual laws"  mirror Kentucky's laws.  You would be legal wearing a hogleg in an  exposed holster virtually anywhere with the exceptions you listed.  The restrictiveness of Michigan lies in the misdemeanors.  If they think they can bully you, they will arrest and charge you with "flourishing."  I had a guard posted on the city mall who was armed by request.  The loudmouth mayor saw it and demanded that the guard be arrested for "flourishing."  The police command officer came over, looked at Bernie and declined to follow the mayor's directive.  The officer knew this guard was also a salesman for the only machine gun dealer in Western Michigan.  An arrest of Bernie would have meant a nasty lawsuit lasting several years.  Like all rights you will only have them as long as you are willing to stand up for them.  I do not fear Obama; Biden will not give up his Beretta shotguns.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:15:32 PM   
painpup


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Status: offline 		Bravo Steel i agree with You highly on the price of freedom

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:19:17 PM   
painpup


Posts: 132
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Status: offline 		as i stated earlier Stella you might be out shopping and stop for a bite to eat  real bad things happen in the safest of places i've allways praticed Common Sense

< Message edited by painpup -- 11/28/2008 1:20:05 PM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:21:15 PM   
philosophy


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Irish gun laws.....

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1925/en/act/pub/0017/index.html#zza17y1925

...i particulary liked the bit about denying a firearms certificate to anyone of 'intemperate habits'.......

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:39:28 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I saw a great bumper sticker today...

quote:

Why don't we pass a law to get drugs off the streets? 



you people are so silly. the government should just make murder illegal.

that way we can just nip tis problem in the bud, amirite?

but seriously, the government won't take my guns - nor will they take my family's guns - as they don't know where they are.

and this is assuming that myself or my family owns weapons, which me don't (I'm talking to you, federal government).

and look at the bright side, the more guns or any other product is regulated, the larger the black market becomes.


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:41:34 PM   
variation30


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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Personally sat over here on the other side of the Atlantic it always amuses me the lengths some people go to in justifying the ownership of an item specifically designed to kill people.




do you think that there is no need to own an item that is specifically designed to kill people?


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:43:03 PM   
variation30


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From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

However even when you take crime figures into account, it's quite safe to live in most Western societies without needing to own a gun.



how about you be a dear and let me decide on how safe I feel and whether or not I should or should not own a gun.

thanks.


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:47:17 PM   
stella41b


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SteelofUtah

Not if you don't look when crossing the street, or not wear a seatbelt and drive wrecklessly, I bet you like knowing that your seat will double as a flotation device, I am sure you don't go kissing lepers, I am sure you take minimum care of yourself and try to keep a decent diet, I am sure you take note of your surrounding and don't walk without looking, I am sure you won't get on a Train car without an Engine. ...

All of these things you do to PROTECT YOURSELF from those things not happening, If you were to STOP protecting yourself in this way I doubt you would be with us for as long as you think you would be.

Protection is Protection if that is watching where you are going or being ready for what is coming your way you protect yourself and what is important to you. Freedom is important to me and I am willing to protect it.

Steel


Okay, so it's protect myself now is it? Against whom or what?

Steel, I lived openly transgendered in the notorious Praga district of Warsaw. At any of the three street markets you could easily walk up and buy a gun just as easily as you can buy a pair of shoes, especially at the market at the Tenth Anniversary Stadium.

Buying a gun there was easy, so too was owning a gun, even though it's technically illegal, you could always slip the police officer one or two 100PLN banknotes in your documents and you're sorted. However not only did I not experience any problems, but the vast majority of Poles also don't feel the need to own a gun to protect themselves.

I grew up in social housing in the poorer areas of the inner city.. I spent part of my teens in the red light district of Bradford in the North of England. Now sure, you could have a gun or even a knife to protect yourself, but you know the most essential three things for protecting yourself are your brain, your eyes and your tongue.

I mean yes, if somebody shot and killed me, I'd be a bit pissed, but there's not much I can do about that, is there?

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 1:52:57 PM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
Joined: 5/9/2007
Status: offline 		Great thing about America....if you want to own guns....go ahead...if you don't wish to....don't...it is a pointless argument that neither side ever wins.
Not a fan of weapons and it is easily disputable as to the argument of personal protection but, some feel it is imperitive and others don't. If you wish to own them BE RESPONSIBLE!...if you are an idiot shoot yourself before you shoot anyone else, if you don't know if you are an idiot or not....YOU ARE AN IDIOT! Most of the pro gun people here seem pretty responsible and I wouldn't worry too much about them. It's the rest of society I am concerned with!

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 2:15:38 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
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From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

However even when you take crime figures into account, it's quite safe to live in most Western societies without needing to own a gun.



how about you be a dear and let me decide on how safe I feel and whether or not I should or should not own a gun.

thanks.



I was making a general statement. If you want to make that statement apply to you specifically then please go ahead. I guess freedom of reading comprehension does actually go hand in hand with freedom of speech.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 2:25:00 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Tweedydaddy and Suzie,

I have to admit that British Gun Control laws were quite effective, in India and other colonies.

The dissidents didnt have guns, the Royal Army did, and dissidents DIED BY THE THOUSANDS.

Oh, I bet you didnt want to be reminded of that....

Gun Control worked real well in the occupied Counties of Northern Ireland..... there have been a lot of unarmed people killed by guns, and many of them from Royal Army issued ammo....

Oops, bet you didnt want to be reminded of that either.....
How bout a nice list in order of ranking of the countries with gun related murders, shall we, by percentage of per 100000 people....
  1. South Africa, 74.5748, gun control laws in place
  2. Columbia, 51.7683, no legal gun ownership
  3. Thailand, 33.0016, no legal gun ownership
  4. Guatemala, 18.5 no legal gun ownership
  5. Paraguay, 7.35 no legal gun ownership
  6. Zimbabwe, 4.76 no legal gun ownership
  7. United States, 3.72 legalized gun ownership laws in place
  8. Belarus, 3.31, no legal gun ownership
Okay, granted, we rank number eight in the list of gun related homicides, but we are NOT the worst country listed, so to our british cousins, quite IMPLYING that we are.

And Tweedydaddy, the soviet army DID not side with the dissidents, in fact the Soviet Army fired on the Presidential Building trying to get Yeltsin to surrender, and only stopped firing when the number of UNARMED civilians reached a point that even the dumbest officer would understand that if they continued he and his men would be torn apart by the mob.

There is a major difference in the military supporting an uprising and the military chosing NOT to do shit out of the survival instinct.

By the way, the BBC got some wonderful footage of soviet tanks blasting the building in question... so much for military support of the uprising.

Now Stella, as for protecting myself against who or what....

I live in a rural area frequented by various predators, large and medium sized, as well as these not very tall but long critters with very sharp teeth and poison, called SNAKES.

I have shot my share of coyotes, bobcats, foxes, and other not so neighborly critters who have been known to kill goats, sheep, calves....

And I have shot many a snake, since I believe a good snake is one that has been made into a pair of boots.

I also hunt.

And finally, while it used to be quite safe to leave our doors unlocked, it has become less so.  Violent crimes have increased in this area (I blame the recent development of 250,000 homes in a couple of subdivisions near here, a reason to ban city dwellers from moving into the country...)
and in point of fact a few years ago had the sobering incident where a person of questionable motives tried to break into a neighbors home just across the fence.

She was home alone with a child, the allegedly misunderstood individual was armed with a rather wicked looking knife.  She called the Sheriff department then called me. 

The intruder decided to wait straddling the window sill until law enforcement personnel arrived, I am quite sure the shotgun I had aimed at his balls was the persuading factor.

When asked why I did not shot him, since I was well with in the law to do so, I explained that I did not want the assholes family sueing me for wrongful death. 

By the way, his arrest also solved three sexual assaults.....

Perhaps I would have had the same results by politely saying, "Excuse me old chap, would you kindly remain motionless while we await the arrival of the constabulary?" while UNARMED?



< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 11/28/2008 2:43:18 PM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 2:36:10 PM   
SteelofUtah


Posts: 5307
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b
I mean yes, if somebody shot and killed me, I'd be a bit pissed, but there's not much I can do about that, is there?


stella I watched and year your YouTube presentation, I understand the issues you have faced and I have not faced them I am not here to state what you could or should or would have done.

The above quote I ask you to look at.

If in that moment before your assailant pulled the trigger and you as a law abiding citizen were not legally allowed to carry the gun that you may have used to defend your life by taking theirs, do you think at that exact moment that you might feel differently? Or do you suppose you would just stand there and die?

This is the ONLY point I am making.

We have a RIGHT in America to Bear arms for the PURPOSE of defending the freedom that was given us by the constitution, since it was signed MANY things have changed but Tryany does exist and it is a real threat and MUCH closer than most people know.

By allowing them to remove your right to own whatever arms you have the means to simply weaks the whole of the nation. It weakens our ineviable ability to protect ourselves when we need to.

and again this is the right than needs to be faught for. and this was my only point. Removing the right to protect yourself to what ever degree simply makes you easier to overtake and control.

The examples in the OP are only there to show the Magnitude of severe gun control, If we continue to allow these rights to be clipped we could end up being one of those examples for the generations to come.

It is that freedom that I fight to protect. It is that right that I defend.

Steel

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 3:04:09 PM   
slaveluci


Posts: 4294
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From: Little Rock, AR
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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

Personally sat over here on the other side of the Atlantic it always amuses me the lengths some people go to in justifying the ownership of an item specifically designed to kill people.

Yeah, it's totally "amusing."  About as "amusing" as it would be to find oneself in a situation where one's life is threatened and they find they've only brought a fingernail file to a gunfight.  I used to be "amused" by owning guns too until I needed one when there was an attempted break-in when I was home alone.  Then I was super "amused" that I had one to defend myself with if necessary................luci

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 3:04:14 PM   
lusciouslips19


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

Arguing that ownership of a gun promotes safety speaks volumes of the sort of society you live in.

However even when you take crime figures into account, it's quite safe to live in most Western societies without needing to own a gun.



Well, I don't own a gun but my Dominant owns many. In a utopian world we wouldn't need guns. But unfortunately if all the guns were banned and all the responsible gun owners didn't have their guns, the only people who would still have guns is the Criminals, who dont own legal guns anyway. That has never made sense to me. To take guns away from people who use them responsibly and leave them in the hands of only the criminals.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 3:15:40 PM   
painpup


Posts: 132
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Status: offline 		Bravo Good thread indeed luscious

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