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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 9:34:19 PM

Joenextdoor

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Thank you CL.....You'll have to carry on as I am off to bed....

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 9:35:44 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
I am saying that it should not be required but optional for those who wish to take them. You can pass any law you want, and make it as hard to get a gun as you can for a law abiding citizen, but the fact remains, the criminals will have them no matter what. All you do with your laws is hinder people like me from exercising my right to own a gun and defend myself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

There is a basic problem with waiting periods, permits, weapons training, etc. The only people who will be enduring this nonsense are law abiding citizens. The very people who are doing bad things with guns will not be showing up for these, as most can't legally own guns, or they own illegal guns. I have no problem with someone taking voluntary training, but I am not for any of the other.

So you are saying that because criminals wouldn't have to do any of those things, nobody else should either, right?

Well, I'm pretty upset I can't just take my E320 drop-top out on 285 and blow past everyone at 100MPH.

I never said anything about making it as hard as possible for "law-abiding" (we'll forget about the tax-cheating, wife-beating, drunk-driving, illegal immigrant-hiring, coke-snorting, hooker-patronizing, UM-molesting, mortgage fraud-perpetrating, stealing-from-the-company "law-abiding gun owners" for the nonce) citizens to own a firearm. Don't put words into my mouth.

Why wouldn't "a well-regulated militia" include firearms training?

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 9:37:59 PM

Owner59

Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joenextdoor

I am a member of the NRA and take offense at the idea that the organization stands for "nutters and the unhinged" to access firearms. The NRA does not want those types to have access to firearms, but they are in a constant fight with gun banners to stop laws which would impose restrictions on all gun owners instead of the wrong potential gun owners. If any gun ban group would out forth a bill that addressed the nutters only, and did not infringe at all on the rest of us, then you might find that the NRA would back it. The NRA spends millions each year with the Eddie Eagle program that teaches kids gun safety. I have never heard of any gun ban group spending one dime in that area. The NRA is not the problem, its the gun banners who act as if they want to stop the nutters when they really want to stop us all.

I`ll refer you to post #73,above.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 9:38:33 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

Just claiming there's a study ain't good enough, dude.

He is referring to John Lott's work More Guns, Less Crime, published in 2000 by the University of Chicago Press, ISBN 9780226493640.

You can purchase it from Amazon for $11.20

Even that isn't a citation, but it is at least a feeble start. At least the reader now knows that there is a good possibility that the person who made the assertion isn't just pulling things out of his nether orifice.

_____________________________

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 10:20:32 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

Even that isn't a citation, but it is at least a feeble start. At least the reader now knows that there is a good possibility that the person who made the assertion isn't just pulling things out of his nether orifice.

It may not be MLA or APA format, but it does reference a source that unequivocally supports Joenextdoor's home defense thesis.

And while it's not the same statistic, this directly from Mr. Lott (interview off the first link provided above) is a statistic:

quote:

For each additional year that a concealed handgun law is in effect the murder rate declines by 3 percent, rape by 2 percent, and robberies by over 2 percent.

As is this:

quote:

When states passed these laws, the number of multiple-victim shootings declined by 84 percent. Deaths from these shootings plummeted on average by 90 percent, and injuries by 82 percent.

And this:

quote:

Children are 14.5 times more likely to die from car accidents than from accidents involving guns.

And this:

quote:

An additional woman carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for women by about 3 to 4 times more than an additional man carrying a concealed handgun reduces the murder rate for men.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 10:23:58 PM

Owner59

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NRA rubbish.

Where are the accidents represented ?

They also count in the equation .

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 10:40:06 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

NRA rubbish.

Where are the accidents represented ?

They also count in the equation .

Read the book for yourself. Even in a down economy surely you have $12 to spare.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 11:39:14 PM

popeye1250

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Owner, look at what happened in Kenesaw, Georgia what,...15 years or so ago when they required all households to have a firearm!
Robberies absolutely plummetted!
I forget the percentage but it was enourmous!
And just for the record I helped out today on "Black Friday."
I bought a Springfield Armory XD-40 .40 cal 10 shot pistol at the gunshop where I go shooting.
So I'm doing MY part to get this economy going again!
How about you CL, Owner?
South Carolina has a "tax free" two days on firearms purchases on Black Friday and Saturday and the place was jumpin! Parking lot was full and you had range time wait of two hours!

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 11:44:26 PM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Owner, look at what happened in Kenesaw, Georgia what,...15 years or so ago when they required all households to have a firearm!
Robberies absolutely plummetted!
I forget the percentage but it was enourmous!
And just for the record I helped out today on "Black Friday."
I bought a Springfield Armory XD-40 .40 cal 10 shot pistol at the gunshop where I go shooting.
So I'm doing MY part to get this economy going again!
How about you CL, Owner?
South Carolina has a "tax free" two days on firearms purchases on Black Friday and Saturday and the place was jumpin! Parking lot was full and you had range time wait of two hours!

Well, do you have any stats for pre and post arms law in Kennesaw? Also, do you know where Kennesaw is, and what the demographics are? Make sure you don't fall into the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. And I am sure that you know that a decline from 2 robberies to one robbery is a (horn fanfare - da da da da da a la Wagner) spectacular, astounding 50% decline! Hooray for misleading stats!

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 11/28/2008 11:47:58 PM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 11:48:32 PM

GreedyTop

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Kennesaw... *snort*

I'd be willing to bet that the KKK dude (wildman, he calls himself) owns more guns than the entire rest of Kennesaw (proper AND incorporated, combined)

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 11:58:49 PM

Hippiekinkster

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OK, here is the first actual link to anything about John Lott:
http://www.press.uchicago.edu/presssite/metadata.epl?mode=synopsis&bookkey=39095 (your link, CL)
It is a one-paragraph synopsis and a few quotes from people commenting on the book.
Not source materiel. Case dismissed.

I had to pause for a bit whilst I found the interview. TY for the link to that. /sarcasm

"Question: What is the basis for these numbers?
Lott: The analysis is based on data for all 3,054 counties in the United States during 18 years from 1977 to 1994."

I see some people just don't get the concept of source materiel. I really don't give a flying fuck what Lott says. If he is relying on FBI stats, let him say so. If it is from elsewhere, then where? Just because he claims that there was some sort of "analysis of data by county from 19xx to 19yy" does not mean any such analysis exists.

The numbers may very well be accurate. I'd like to see for myself, rather than taking a partisan's word for it.

Let me see if I have the chain right. Joenextdoor claims some numbers based on some guy, John Lott he thinks, who is being held up (see: Appeal to Authority) as some sort of expert, I think.
Then we get a link to a synopsis of a book he wrote. From that page we get a link to an interview wherein he claims certain statistics. Since Lott doesn't provide his sources for the information, we are supposed to take what he claims on faith. That's the way I see it. Now some of you all might be satisfied with Lott's claims. I'm not.

If someone is going to claim that great numbers of people successfully fended off home invasions by the heathen hordes, I think some data from the agency that is responsible for such data would be a bit more reliable than a book review or an interview.

< Message edited by Hippiekinkster -- 11/29/2008 12:19:13 AM >

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"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 12:04:15 AM

zenny

Posts: 275
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DuncanM120

SteelofUtah

I agree with you completely. I know a lot of the people on the Pro-Gun side of the fence do not agree with me but I am OK with being required to purchase permits. I would be OK with mandatory education to purchase guns. And I am actually OK with waiting periods. While it would piss me off, I would be OK with extended waiting periods of 30,60, or even 90 days. If the government felt that was enough time to carefully research an individual so that people who might use them for school or workplace shootings could be filtered out, I would be OK with that.

There is a problem with this, not the least of which is represented in the (if I recall correctly) 1992 California riots. However, the big problem is when you start going down that road it is no longer a right, but a privilege.

Edit - I nearly forgot. For those on either or neither side who actually care about facts, sources, statistics, and a logical progression of thought I would direct you towards this small, free, 117 page .pdf. - http://law.bepress.com/expresso/eps/1564/

And for those who enjoy the audacity of gun control I propose reading this page. - http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/200306172114.html

< Message edited by zenny -- 11/29/2008 12:21:02 AM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 12:25:11 AM

Hippiekinkster

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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Kennesaw... *snort*

I'd be willing to bet that the KKK dude (wildman, he calls himself) owns more guns than the entire rest of Kennesaw (proper AND incorporated, combined)

Yeah, really. <doublesnort> You know, I don't think I know anyone who owns guns. And I know one or two people here. I mean, odds are I DO, but it doesn't seem to be all that common. Of course, where I live (as you well know) isn't exactly double-wide alley.

Peace, sistah.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 12:51:23 AM

blacksword404

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Kennesaw... *snort*

I'd be willing to bet that the KKK dude (wildman, he calls himself) owns more guns than the entire rest of Kennesaw (proper AND incorporated, combined)

Yeah, really. <doublesnort> You know, I don't think I know anyone who owns guns. And I know one or two people here. I mean, odds are I DO, but it doesn't seem to be all that common. Of course, where I live (as you well know) isn't exactly double-wide alley. Peace, sistah.

Hmm picture with wine glass in hand, Quips about double-wides. Ah i see. You think all gun owners are white trash? Or something like that?

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 1:15:15 AM

susie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

However even when you take crime figures into account, it's quite safe to live in most Western societies without needing to own a gun.

how about you be a dear and let me decide on how safe I feel and whether or not I should or should not own a gun.

thanks.

Actually I am more interested in the reason you do not feel safe. What threats do you face that require you to own a gun to protect yourself?

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 1:17:39 AM

XaviersXian

Posts: 525
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greetings to all,

The Australian gun control laws came about after a particularly nasty massacre that killed 35 innocent people (including two children under 10...one of which, who, after running away and trying to hide behind a tree, was hunted like a game animal and killed where she had tried to hide).

I have an acquaintance that was shot in the buttock by the man wielding the gun...he survived, but saw many people killed. I am very careful never to mention the day to him (to the point of not even asking how he's doing with his health now) because I am fearful that it may cause him some form of psychological harm.

My father was a sporting shooter (he had rifles and pistols that he shot with at the local range). He turned them all in to the government. People without registered firearms are not even able to keep ammunition, or gun cases.

In my opinion, the gun laws are the best thing to ever happen to this country.

well wishes,

< Message edited by XaviersXian -- 11/29/2008 1:26:16 AM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 1:18:36 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

Kennesaw... *snort*

I'd be willing to bet that the KKK dude (wildman, he calls himself) owns more guns than the entire rest of Kennesaw (proper AND incorporated, combined)

Yeah, really. <doublesnort> You know, I don't think I know anyone who owns guns. And I know one or two people here. I mean, odds are I DO, but it doesn't seem to be all that common. Of course, where I live (as you well know) isn't exactly double-wide alley. Peace, sistah.

Hmm picture with wine glass in hand, Quips about double-wides. Ah i see. You think all gun owners are white trash? Or something like that?

Nope. Guess again. (BTW, pic is from August 17, 2003, my 50th, at my favorite restaurant in Prenzlauer-Berg, Berlin, DE)

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"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 1:32:52 AM

Hippiekinkster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: stella41b

However even when you take crime figures into account, it's quite safe to live in most Western societies without needing to own a gun.

how about you be a dear and let me decide on how safe I feel and whether or not I should or should not own a gun.

thanks.

Actually I am more interested in the reason you do not feel safe. What threats do you face that require you to own a gun to protect yourself?

That is an excellent question. There have been very few times in my life where I haven't felt "safe", and in retrospect, it has been my perception that has been faulty.

An example: I had just turned 18, and I moved into a "hippie" house with some other guys circa 1971. Somehow I managed to meet a young Mexican lass, at a local carnival, who was here with her family picking fruit and so on. Migrants. Not long after, her btothers invited me to go out and smoke a little. We piled in a car and went into a nearby orchard. We achieved our goal, and there I was in a car with 4 stoned Mexican guys, and I was pretty ripped myself. The paranoia that ensued paralyzed me. I couldn't talk, or laugh, or anything, and when they laughed, I thought it was at me.

Long story short, it was all in my head. I didn't feel safe at all, I knew they were going to fuck me up for seeing their sister, but it was all in my head. I built this huge castle of paranoid fantasy out of nothing.

And I truly think that some similar thought processes occur in many gun-owners.

_____________________________

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 1:34:48 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian

greetings to all,

The Australian gun control laws came about after a particularly nasty massacre that killed 35 innocent people (including two children under 10...one of which, who, after running away and trying to hide behind a tree, was hunted like a game animal and killed where she had tried to hide).

I have an acquaintance that was shot in the buttock by the man wielding the gun...he survived, but saw many people killed. I am very careful never to mention the day to him (to the point of not even asking how he's doing with his health now) because I am fearful that it may cause him some form of psychological harm.

My father was a sporting shooter (he had rifles and pistols that he shot with at the local range). He turned them all in to the government. People without registered firearms are not even able to keep ammunition, or gun cases.

In my opinion, the gun laws are the best thing to ever happen to this country.

well wishes,

Sheesh! God forbid you have a crazy person go beserk with a car or truck!
I can see it on Yahoo News; "Australia bans cars and trucks, junk yards filling up."
"Law abiding citizens turn in their keys."
"Criminals stealing and hiding cars and trucks."
So, how do things work in Aus?
The govt. "dictates" to the people?
You trust the govt. to make your decisions "for" you?

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/29/2008 2:25:43 AM

susie

Posts: 1699
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: XaviersXian

greetings to all,

The Australian gun control laws came about after a particularly nasty massacre that killed 35 innocent people (including two children under 10...one of which, who, after running away and trying to hide behind a tree, was hunted like a game animal and killed where she had tried to hide).

I have an acquaintance that was shot in the buttock by the man wielding the gun...he survived, but saw many people killed. I am very careful never to mention the day to him (to the point of not even asking how he's doing with his health now) because I am fearful that it may cause him some form of psychological harm.

My father was a sporting shooter (he had rifles and pistols that he shot with at the local range). He turned them all in to the government. People without registered firearms are not even able to keep ammunition, or gun cases.

In my opinion, the gun laws are the best thing to ever happen to this country.

well wishes,

Sheesh! God forbid you have a crazy person go beserk with a car or truck!
I can see it on Yahoo News; "Australia bans cars and trucks, junk yards filling up."
"Law abiding citizens turn in their keys."
"Criminals stealing and hiding cars and trucks."
So, how do things work in Aus?
The govt. "dictates" to the people?
You trust the govt. to make your decisions "for" you?

That is a pretty ridiculous statement. There is a whole lot of difference between owning something thats purpose is to kill people to owning a method of transport that might be in an accident.

Comments like this make me realise why I have such a problem with people owning guns.

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