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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 3:25:31 PM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Great thing about America....if you want to own guns....go ahead...if you don't wish to....don't...it is a pointless argument that neither side ever wins.


that's exactly how it should be. I wouldn't want to force peopel to carry weapons if they don't want to just as I would appreciate people not to force me not to own weapons.

quote:

Most of the pro gun people here seem pretty responsible and I wouldn't worry too much about them. It's the rest of society I am concerned with!


I share that sentiment. statistically speaking (a way I don't like to speak), people with carry licenses have the lowest likelihood to commit a crime. I'm not worried about people who carry guns legally, I'm worried about people who carry weapons illegally to enchance their ability to do other things illegally.


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 4:02:09 PM   
Raechard


Posts: 3513
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: S.E. London U.K.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I hate to break it to you but doesn't Iraq disprove your point.  The US military, in all its might and glory cannot put down a bunch of arabs, arguably some of the worst fighters on the planet (taking the fact that the entire ME still hasn't defeated tiny Israel).

If you are saying the little man can oppose the government successfully, I'd argue it's not guns you need but IED's since around 60% of US deaths have been caused by the clever IED tactics of these supposed 'worst fighters on the planet'. 
quote:


You could try and make the case that the US is hamstrung by playing "nice" but the Afghans beat the Russians who used everything but wide spread use of nerve gas.  They had a bit of help with Stinger missiles but that only sped up their defeat.  Those same backward ill equipped sons of bitches beat the British, arguably rather good at subduing natives and they are now holding their own with us.

This paragraph kind of contradicts what you said previously about the level of skill of the insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan.
quote:


In that case, US soldiers are shooting people who don't sound like them, who they can't understand, who don't look, smell, or act like them.  To put down a revolt in the US, they would have to shoot women who look like their wives, sound like their wives, and who they share the same language as.

Some people have romantic ideas born of films in terms of what people in certain positions will or won't do. People also assume that all these people are in the military for the right reasons and have passed all the relevant psyche tests.
quote:


Armies are great for defeating other armies but holding down civilian populations who have the ability to revolt is a bit more tricky.  So, if you want an anti-gun argument, you best pick one that has more solid footing, cause this one isn't firm enough to call thin ice.

Shouldn't these people have opposed the government with their guns by now? I mean just look at what successive governments have done to your economy and no one has decided to revolt yet, when they do it is usually some teenager at a school and we all say they are crazy for fighting their cause i.e. recognition of how bad their situation is, boo hoo . When is the right stage to revolt exactly and when will the Government have to take on more than a few isolated cult members who think inbreeding is a fun wholesome activity? If people are still holding their arms to fight government oppression they are holding them for completely the wrong reasons.


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 5:02:43 PM   
calamitysandra


Posts: 1682
Joined: 3/17/2006
Status: offline 		We have still gun control over here in Germany. No large scale atrocities going on at the moment (as far as I know, of course).
Only saying ...

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 5:13:12 PM   
stella41b


Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline 		Guys my point was really that effective gun control works just as well as the right to bear arms...

You think I was being entirely serious in my counterarguments?

Let's face it, a gun is a piece of metal just the same way as a car is or a knife. Or a baseball bat come to that. It takes someone to use it with some degree of intent to cause someone else injury or death.

Seriously I go by what Silvermark says, if you feel the need to have a gun, have one, if not, don't.

In another thread CelticLord made a point about police officers, and having had contact with a couple of border guards in Atlanta I'm inclined to agree with CL that some folks in uniform on the other side of the Atlantic are not to be trusted or even be allowed to work anywhere near other people. This was behind my reference to the state of society together with some of the guys in a jail in Texas who thought the right to bear arms extended to not paying for their shopping or burglarizing people's homes.

Though I may not have agreed with the arguments about governments and protection against them I do understand and agree with the opinions and sentiments shared by the OP and other US posters about protecting that right to bear arms and protecting their other freedoms.

Enough blood has been soaked into American soil to get together a constitution, and it would appear to be a political trend which is moving further and further away from that famous speech of Gettysburg 1836 towards a new sort of totalitarianism which would appear alien and so foreign to American society and culture which is founded on freedom and liberty. Should those freedoms and liberties be lost then something which is so essentially American will be lost and the world will be a much darker place as a result.

I missed the wild animal argument altogether..

But then again, I'm not American, and haven't been much in the country, and I was making general statements not taking into account culture or society.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 6:16:55 PM   
Evility


Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
Status: offline 		People love the parts of the Constitution that guarantee them the rights that they cherish but like our President-elect they'd love to eliminate the parts that guarantee them rights they have no use for.

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 6:44:21 PM   
rexrgisformidoni


Posts: 578
Joined: 9/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Great thing about America....if you want to own guns....go ahead...if you don't wish to....don't...it is a pointless argument that neither side ever wins.


that's exactly how it should be. I wouldn't want to force peopel to carry weapons if they don't want to just as I would appreciate people not to force me not to own weapons.

quote:

Most of the pro gun people here seem pretty responsible and I wouldn't worry too much about them. It's the rest of society I am concerned with!


I share that sentiment. statistically speaking (a way I don't like to speak), people with carry licenses have the lowest likelihood to commit a crime. I'm not worried about people who carry guns legally, I'm worried about people who carry weapons illegally to enchance their ability to do other things illegally.




I agree. Which is odd. I own 3 guns and have never thought of using them to commit crimes, two I use to hunt with and keep up on my target shooting and my pistol is for self defense and to have some fun with, nothing like a good knock down match.


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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 6:49:18 PM   
philosophy


Posts: 5284
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

People love the parts of the Constitution that guarantee them the rights that they cherish but like our President-elect they'd love to eliminate the parts that guarantee them rights they have no use for.


...and of course you were just as upset over GWB doing the same weren't you?

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 7:01:06 PM   
beargonewild


Posts: 22716
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		~FR~

The one thought which keeps going through my mind is the fact that The second Amendment was created in a different time period, in a different social climate to reflect how society was back then, which is totally different to how society is here in the 21st century. I accept the argument that people do have the right to protect yet isn't that why we have law enforcement agencies at local, state and federal levels? Plus the military, naval and Air force to defend and protect our country? By the sounds of it, we are actually have no faith in these people, who we elect and hire to protect our rights. I understand a person owning a couple rifles because they hunt, I understand a person having the right to own a firearm to help protect their own person, what I fail to understand is a person needing to own 5 or 10 weapons ranging from AK47 or any other type of assault rifle to protect themselves, almost sounds like a paranoid overkill.




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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 7:18:00 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rexrgisformidoni

quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Great thing about America....if you want to own guns....go ahead...if you don't wish to....don't...it is a pointless argument that neither side ever wins.


that's exactly how it should be. I wouldn't want to force peopel to carry weapons if they don't want to just as I would appreciate people not to force me not to own weapons.

quote:

Most of the pro gun people here seem pretty responsible and I wouldn't worry too much about them. It's the rest of society I am concerned with!


I share that sentiment. statistically speaking (a way I don't like to speak), people with carry licenses have the lowest likelihood to commit a crime. I'm not worried about people who carry guns legally, I'm worried about people who carry weapons illegally to enchance their ability to do other things illegally.




I agree. Which is odd. I own 3 guns and have never thought of using them to commit crimes, two I use to hunt with and keep up on my target shooting and my pistol is for self defense and to have some fun with, nothing like a good knock down match.



That's because only an idiot would use a gun licensed in his name to commit a crime. Smart people use illegially obtained guns for crimes.

If I was going to pre-meditate a murder or a violent crime, I would NEVER EVER use a firearm that could be traced back to me. I would buy one from the same guys I used to buy pot from when I was younger.

And given that word "illegal" proceeding the word "gun", those guns probably aren't going to go away if we make the "legal guns" go away. In fact, we would see more "illegal guns" on the street just like we see more "illegal drugs" on the streets with the introduction of these kind of laws.

So the end result of such brilliant restrictions is more guns for people to commit more crimes they can get away with.

At least, the increased sales for my old pot dealer would mean less money he takes away from liberal governement programs. (Trying to look on the bright side!)


< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 11/28/2008 7:19:29 PM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 7:44:53 PM   
Joenextdoor


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		If the Brits would have had gun control on the colonies over 200 years ago, I dare say we would not be free Americans now. 
Murder is already a crime, as is robbery, and a host of other activities.  This has not stopped those crimes, just as the most draconian gun laws will not stop gun crime, or crime in general.  These laws will only serve to make law abiding citizens into victims.  You can choose for yourself not to own a firearm, just as you can choose to use any of your rights or not.  If you don't like guns, that is fine, but don't try to tell me that I can't choose for myself.  If you don't like it, then learn to live with it and don't infringe on my right just because you don't like guns or you have other beliefs.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 7:53:54 PM   
Joenextdoor


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		     The average response time where I live is 20 minutes.  This is not what I call being protected by law enforcement.  They are only good for investigating after its over. 
    No, I don't have alot of faith in government to protect me.  If you do, then good luck to you.  If we had faith that our elected officials would protect our rights, including the 2nd amendment, then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.  The fact we are says that many of us don't have that faith.
    I own an assault rifle, not out of some paranoia, but because I want to.  I enjoy shooting them, and will never give mine up.  In fact, I have three more on order currently, and will try to buy one at the gun show in 8 days. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: beargonewild

~FR~

The one thought which keeps going through my mind is the fact that The second Amendment was created in a different time period, in a different social climate to reflect how society was back then, which is totally different to how society is here in the 21st century. I accept the argument that people do have the right to protect yet isn't that why we have law enforcement agencies at local, state and federal levels? Plus the military, naval and Air force to defend and protect our country? By the sounds of it, we are actually have no faith in these people, who we elect and hire to protect our rights. I understand a person owning a couple rifles because they hunt, I understand a person having the right to own a firearm to help protect their own person, what I fail to understand is a person needing to own 5 or 10 weapons ranging from AK47 or any other type of assault rifle to protect themselves, almost sounds like a paranoid overkill.




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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:36:42 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		And the thousands of loved ones mistakenly shot or killed?

And the tens of thousands of guns that are stolen?

I never hear the luvers address those things.




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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:40:06 PM   
Joenextdoor


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		So we can just scratch out one of our rights because a few people do bad things?  I never hear the haters address just how taking away a fundamental right under the Constitution is somehow ever justified. 
It is irrelevant how many guns are stolen or misused.  The right to own them is just that, a right.  I will fight anyone who wants to take away my right because of the actions of others.

< Message edited by Joenextdoor -- 11/28/2008 8:41:32 PM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:43:27 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		 

I like where is says "well regulated".

It`s in there.



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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:44:21 PM   
Joenextdoor


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		It says well regulated militia....it does not say well regulated guns .

I like where is says "shall not be infringed"....its in there

< Message edited by Joenextdoor -- 11/28/2008 8:45:21 PM >

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RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:46:27 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I guess alot of people live in some ivory tower or something. Don't pick on my Kalishnikov, he is happy here, he doesn't have to work. Just be able to work.

Nice story jlf, but I wonder why you didn't shoot, couldn't get a good chest shot ? I know you don't want to shoot anyone in the back or the balls, stuff like that but it seems to me you could have ordered him down and saved the taxpayers a few bucks. I believe if you shoot a full grown Man who is invading another's home in that manner, you should be reimbursed by the goverment for one round of ammunition. Like a bullet for a bullet policy.

Now people, I see a general misunderstanding here of how the world is. While the US government remained hell bent on taking our guns away,  Saddam Hussein's government was passing out rifles to the People. This of course because they knew that US forces were coming. With those weapons, why didn't they just mount their own offensive and possibly serve up Saddam to the "liberators" on a silver platter ? How many guesses do you want ?

All is not as it seems.

T

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:48:27 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		It says "right to bear arms".Not right to bear firearms.


What the document doesn`t say, is as important as what it does say.






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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:49:25 PM   
Joenextdoor


Posts: 145
Joined: 9/8/2004
Status: offline 		so I guess now you think you are winning this one huh?

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:50:22 PM   
BamaD


Posts: 20687
Joined: 2/27/2005
Status: offline 		Have you heard of the Appilacian School of law?   A shooter with illegally obtained nine millimeter hadnguns.  Unfortunatly for him it was deer season.   Armed citizens 1  wacko shooter 0

(in reply to DuncanM120)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Gun Lovers ... Some Facts for those who think you s... - 11/28/2008 8:51:17 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DuncanM120

SteelofUtah

I agree with you completely.  I know a lot of the people on the Pro-Gun side of the fence do not agree with me but I am OK with being required to purchase permits.  I would be OK with mandatory education to purchase guns.  And I am actually OK with waiting periods.  While it would piss me off, I would be OK with extended waiting periods of 30,60, or even 90 days.  If the government felt that was enough time to carefully research an individual so that people who might use them for school or workplace shootings could be filtered out, I would be OK with that.



Yanno, I'm a REAL leftie/Socialist/liberal/Progressive/yada yada, and I don't have any problem with the 2nd A. I think its genesis was due to factors besides the notion that Amis need guns to prevent a tyrannical Gummint, but that's neither here nor there.

I think those things you delineated, such as waiting periods, permits, weapons training, etc., are good public policy, and would help support MY right not to be shot by some psychopath. They don't, in any way that I can see, keep anyone from owning arms. They are, at the most, an inconvenience, and I would think rational people would support background checks and such, so that THEY might never need to use THEIR weapons, and so that they might minimize their odds of being picked off by a Malvo.

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